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i dont know where you get your delusions... midichlorains made easy!!!

#1 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 06:09 PM

so a lot of people got beef with midichlorians. i really cant figure out why. some say they destory the universe, or are entirely unecessary. i admit, i was blissful in my ignorance of them, but after hearing about them in the PT, i dont see how the OT would make sense without them! midichlorians are the PT's highly plausible answer to what i thought was the OT's biggest question. the question being:

if vader could hunt down a shload of jedi, then why was luke able to beat him by himself when he was still technically a padawan?

there are only two possible answers, either luke is more powerful than anakin ever was. or anakin lost a lot of his former power. i think the latter is the most likely, dont you? or it could be both...

but how did he lose his power? the OT offers no reason for vader's disablitiy. which makes me wonder why for so long i accepted his condition without question. so we have to assume that vader was significantly weakend after his accident; when he became more machine than man. but why does the loss of body parts weaken your force abalities? the answer is, it doesnt, it only weakend vader. why was vader weakend? midichlorians...indirectly.

all we know about midichlorians comes from a few words from gui-gon, speaking to an 8yr old, in one movie. that is to say, we dont know squat! NO ONE EVER IMPLIES THAT MIDICHLORIANS PREDETERMINE THE LIMIT OF YOUR POWER! i dont know where that rumor started. all we know for sure is that midis live in your cells, tell you the will of the force, and 20000 is a lot. so logically, anakin's only advantage is that he should know better than anyone the will of the force. but he doesnt cause hes conflicted by fear, love, and lust for power. he cant quiet his mind.
the way i see it, midichlorians are to a jedi what extra hands are to a pianist. they are not the be all end all of your power, only a headstart in the right direction. anakin, overconfident about his innate talents, refuses to take his time and develope his abilities. this works fine for awhile.yet, eventually he learns the hard way that talent is no match for skill. haveing been stripped of his advantage by lava, and having never allowed himself to be fully trained, darth vader becomes a pitiful shadow of anakin skywalker.
and just cause you're smaller, (like yoda) doesnt mean you have fewer midichlorians, this is plainly shown in TPM. and midichlorians are NOT THE FORCE! they are a medium through which it speaks. a serious mind makes a jedi, not his cellular structure; when the body dies, midichlorians are no longer needed. if you have a low count, you have to train harder, if you have a high count, your tested by frustration and arrogance. what do you think?
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#2 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 09:28 PM

Luke beat Vader because he kept his eye on the prize.

Vader was conflicted. He didn't want to kill his son... His son reminded him of who he once was...(unless you consider the PT).
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#3 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 09:33 PM

No.

That is what I think.

I think no. You have thought this out rationally, which I applaud, since many defenses of the prequels are not rational - but I disagree...

All your arguments could go the other way if you replace "midichlorians" with "force" - high midichlorian count = strong in the force. Vader does not necessarily lose his powers to be defeated by Luke, Luke draws from the Dark Side of the Force to defeat him.
Though if you want to consider vader losing his powers; if his body was crippled, then his mind would be disquieted, and some of the efforts he could have put into mastery of the force would have to go into mastering his body - his constant pains and his vulnerability would have weakened his mind, so though he can be quite powerful, he would not be as powerful as he might have been.
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#4 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 09:43 PM

Like Barend said, Vader lost because he didn't want to win. We already saw that he could thrash Luke's ass in ESB

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#5 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 10:38 PM

can i get away with saying you guys are right without saying im wrong?
you're absolutly right about vader not wanting to win. and i dont think anyone would have missed the midichlorians if they had never been brought up. my point was that the midichlorians dont really add or subtract from the star wars mythos. but i still want to know how the force is stronger in some families than others.
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#6 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 10:41 PM

Our main grief with midichlorians is that they provide a scientific explanation to something that didn't need it. The force was mystical and we liked it that way. As soon as midichlorians came in, all that was thrown away. We'd rather have the mystical force than the scientific one.
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#7 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 11:22 PM

Exactly. How can that general in ANH POSSIBLY call the Force an "ancient religion" when there concrete, congruous EVIDENCE. It makes everything Yoda says in ESB flaccid and hollow. Especially his line about "crude matter." Midiclorians=matter. Does not compute.

And if you say midiclorians don't matter-----then why bring them up AT ALL!!!

Also, if midiclorians "speak" to us, then those who possess them really have no will of their own. They're listening to tiny little beings in their bodies, not to themselves, and to me that completely removes all human drama from the characters and events. It really diffuses the whole effect of this universe which was at one time self-contained AND NOT a PROBLEM!!!! There were no questions about how it worked. We just accepted it, and we didn't need this "explanation" that provides nothing, adds nothing to the story line. NOTHING!!! Pull Qui-Gon's spiel from TPM, and it changes nothing.

IT... WAS... UNNECESSARY!!

And a GOOD WRITER or a GOOD STORYTELLER would see that, and would have removed it.

ERGO... Lucas is NOT a good writer... nor a good storyteller. Lucas' day is done. He was spent by the pre-production of ESB, and ROTJ was all downhill for him, relying on his past to get him by, just as he does now with the PT's.

If Vader weren't featured prominently in the gawdamn trailers, a lot of people wouldn't bother at this point.
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Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#8 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 01:14 AM

my main grief with midichlorines is that they rob us of the intellectual side of it.

we loose all philisophical value.

the dark side is a quick an easy raod, it is initially instantly gratifying to persue, but ultimatley it doesn't have as strong a foundation. It's only really superficially strong.

that thought it is easily extrapolated from force related dialogue in the OT.

other factors come into it aswell...

when vader and the emporer took over, it was a full scale attack on the good guys... the dark forces were throwing everything they had at them, wereas no one was really trying to hold luke back.

the other thing is that Vader had alot of confidence invested in him, alot of people, one way or another, were inflating his ego.
But Luke had simple begenings, a humble lifestyle... No one told him he was special, he had to work for everything. He had guidence but nothing was just handed over to him as such.

there is somehow a really magnificent idea in there, and it's a real shame that the PT came from such a hollow and shallow stand point that robbed the franchise of any real depth.

midichlorians is one of the primary factors and manifestations of this...
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#9 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 01:20 AM

You want to know how some families are stronger in the force than others? Simple, they just are.

It can make more sense that if you come from a contemplative family, or are taught about the force at a young age, you have a better chance to grow your force sensitivity. Why are some people better thinkers than others? Genetics? Maybe having the right state of mind to feel the force is part genetic. Or maybe you have to have the right sort of personal experiences to wake up and notice it. Maybe some people are just gifted.

WE DIDN'T NEED AN EXPLANATION.
YOU DON"T NEED MIDICHLORIANS.
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#10 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 01:42 AM

Hear hear.
The Force does not need to be quantified. We can do fine with "the Force is strong with this one" without "I would like a midichlorian analysis on the sample I'm sending you now" - The Force can wax and wane without the idea of some necrobiotic process occuring in subcellular organisms - also, the idea of the distinct light and dark sides of the force is not answered - unless there be badachlorians or somesuch, the idea of racial impregnabilities to the force is an annoying plot gimmick to unfold an annoying plot.
Also "A Jedi can feel the force flowing through him/ You mean it controls your actions/ Partially. But it also obeys your commands"
How can midichlorians obey your commands...
They don't matter - therefore they are unnecessary - so why were they there.
As for why the force seems to follow family lines - it didn't, until Luke said "the Force is strong in my family, Leia" in Jedi. Up until then, the force was not a family trait, but one that was universal - the Jedi training taps it, but everyone has it in one way or another.
When Yoda said "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" he was not talking about the Jedi. He was talking about all living things.
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#11 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 04:53 AM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ Apr 28 2005, 04:42 PM)
Hear hear.
The Force does not need to be quantified. We can do fine with "the Force is strong with this one" without "I would like a midichlorian analysis on the sample I'm sending you now" - The Force can wax and wane without the idea of some necrobiotic process occuring in subcellular organisms - also, the idea of the distinct light and dark sides of the force is not answered - unless there be badachlorians or somesuch, the idea of racial impregnabilities to the force is an annoying plot gimmick to unfold an annoying plot.
Also "A Jedi can feel the force flowing through him/ You mean it controls your actions/ Partially. But it also obeys your commands"
How can midichlorians obey your commands...

I think you are confusing, at least in the points you are making, the force itself with midichlorians. Midichlorians convey a sensitivity ot the force - a two way flow of information between the host organism and the "mystical energy field". So the midichlorians do not obey your actions but they can, indirectly, convey your intentions, if you learn how. Thats at least how I take it.
Midichlorians are not the force itself but a channel. Therefore there can be a dark and a light side of the force without "bad midichlorians" and "good midichlorians". Hell, I might argue that there can be a dark and light side of the force with a purely neutral "mystical energy field", the darkness or otherwise is merely relative to the way in which one uses this field. The Dark side being shorthand for a selfish/evil manipulation of the force etc
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They don't matter - therefore they are unnecessary - so why were they there.

Well to establish Anakin as the "Chosen One", the most powerful, etc in a fairly definitive manner. I don't think "Check this kid out - the force is strong in him" "Yes - My god I am sensing more of the force with him than with Master Yoda! how is that possible". I know many of you feel that the actual scene itself was probably worse but I think it basically comes down to how you feel about the idea of there being a "scientific" explanation of force ability and the idea that some are more force sensitive than others by nature. If you don't like those ideas then no ammount of arguing why midichlorians make sense is gonna change your mind.
My feelings: Luke's "The force is strong in my family" speech clearly establishes force sensitivity as a hereditary trait. And it makes much more sense that Luke is both Vader's son and is seen as being so important in the OT by all the major players because he has the potential to become a powerful Jedi/Sith. Otherwise loads of young men would probably make better candidates than Luke for training.
QUOTE
As for why the force seems to follow family lines - it didn't, until Luke said "the Force is strong in my family, Leia" in Jedi. Up until then, the force was not a family trait, but one that was universal - the Jedi training taps it, but everyone has it in one way or another.

I think everyone still does, just to a much lesserr extent than your average potential Jedi.
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When Yoda said "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" he was not talking about the Jedi. He was talking about all living things.

Unquestionably.
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#12 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 05:49 AM

Midichlorians are an incredibly crappy idea. They take all the romance and mysticism out of the Force, and having never being mentioned in the OT, they're simply yet another thing making the Prequels look inconsistent. Why the hell didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda ever mention them to Luke if they're that impoprtant?
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

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Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#13 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:05 AM

In each movie lucas tries to add elements to old ideas like he did with the force in episode 1, it keeps us reminded about the force and we learn differnt stuff about it all the time. Also it helped decide that anakin was really special. From that point you knew it wasent just qui gon's beliefs he actully had some evidence to back it. Makes it much more believable.
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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:08 AM

QUOTE (Nicholas_Skywalker @ Apr 28 2005, 04:05 AM)
In each movie lucas tries to add elements to old ideas like he did with the force in episode 1, it keeps us reminded about the force and we learn differnt stuff about it all the time. Also it helped decide that anakin was really special. From that point you knew it wasent just qui gon's beliefs he actully had some evidence to back it. Makes it much more believable.


Unfortunately, that's not how it turned out.
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#15 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:11 AM

QUOTE (Nicholas_Skywalker @ Apr 28 2005, 12:05 PM)
In each movie lucas tries to add elements to old ideas like he did with the force in episode 1, it keeps us reminded about the force and we learn differnt stuff about it all the time. Also it helped decide that anakin was really special. From that point you knew it wasent just qui gon's beliefs he actully had some evidence to back it. Makes it much more believable.

Everything we learn about the Force in the OT follows on naturally from what we saw in the first movie. Putting this new information in the Prequels doesn't make sense, because if Midichlorians were so important they would have been mentioned in the OT. And why on earth would Qui-Gon need a 'Midichlorian count' to decide that Anakin is 'special'? Why couldn't he just sense that Anakin is extremely strong in the Force? We saw in ANH that Force-users can sense this automatically; they don't need any extra evidence!
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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