[darthsmash]

OK I am going to bed now and you have indicated that you don't want to go over this any more which is fair enough but for the record here are my replies to your points.

Luke asked what the Force was; that would have been as good a time as any.

The simplest way for Obi-Wan to explain to Luke in the 2 minutes or less of screen time that he had in ANH to explai the force to Luke would be to explain the "mystical energy field" and skip the details of how one is able to interface with such a field. Not to mention that Obi-Wans speech (much like Qui-Gon's) is exposition of the most blatant kind. To a movie-goer watching ANH for the first time in 77 who knows nothing about what the force is let alone why someone might be able to interact with it, the mention of midichlorians at this point would have been confusing, awkward and, yes, unnecesary. Fastforward 20 or so years to an audience who grew up with the concept of the force and to here the same riff out of Qui-Gon's mouth would have been unnecesary and tedious.

Yoda could have mentioned them at any point during his training. It wouldn't have taken long and it would have made sense; leaving out any mention of them does not.

It doesn't follow that it does not make sense not to mention them because it might have made sense to mention them. Midichlorians and their measurement were only important to Jedi as a means of identifying and quantifying force ability in potential Jedis. Luke was a known quantity. And once again you are going to have to distinguish between Lucas leaving out an on-screen explanation (which we know to be the case) and Yoda leaving out any explanation to Luke off-screen (which we DON'T know to be the case).

'Midichlorians' clearly did not exist in Lucas's mind at the time he made the OT, so they should have been left out of the PT.

Eh? Of course they didn't exist in his mind at the time of the OT but why on Earth does that mean they should be left out of the PT? I'm sure Vader was not Luke's father when Lucas wrote ANH and you can be damn sure Leia wasn't his sister at the time of ESB. Should these revelations not have happened. They created more story-telling difficulties re Kenobi's "a certain point of view"/out and out lie then midichlorians ever have.

But the Midichlorians thing was explained to Anakin because, to paraphrase Obi-Wan, 'They tell you the will of the Force'. And Luke was hardly just a 'kid'; he was the man who was going to rebuild the Jedi Order.

OK you have gotten hung up on the "kid" part of the soccer analogy when it is not relevant at all. I could just as easily have said young man or whatever the point of both analogies is that understanding how something works in great technical detail does not in many cases make you more accomplished in that area. ie To be good at Doom 3 you do not have to know about video cards or 3D graphic engines or machine code, to be a good runner you don't have to understand muscle fibre contraction at a molecular level and finally to be an accomplished force user you don't have to know jack-squat about midichlorians.

If Midichlorians were important enough to explain to Anakin, why not to Luke as well?

As you pointed out before: real life explanation - Lucas obviously hadn't come up with midichlorians yet. In-story explanation: either it happened off-screen on Dagobah or it wasn't felt to be important enough given the rather gruelling Jedi crash-course that Luke was being put through.

And if Lucas really didn't intend them to be important, why the hell did he include them in the first place?

See last post.

But it wasn't shown, and something so fundamental to the nature of the Force should definitely have been shown. According to Qui-Gon, they determine your strength in the Force and help you to understand it. 'It happened offscreen' is a completely lame excuse for the obvious lack of continuity.

OK. It seems to me that there is a misconception here over the meaning of continuity as it applies to narrative fiction. Let me clarify:
In the 2009 blockbuster Spiderboy 1, Spiderboy has a friend who shows up in a few scenes has a few funny lines and nothing much else. In the second movie he shows up again and he has a girlfriend. Through dialogue it is revealed that they have been going out since before the events of Spiderboy 1. This is not a continuity error or a lack of continuity. Even if the writers at the time of Spiderboy 1 did not intend for him to have a girlfriend at the time of writing.
However if this friend died at the end of Spiderboy 1 or had his arm blown off and he shows up in Spiderboy 2 completely fine with no explanation then this is a continuity error, at least until it is explained away in Spiderboy 3.
By your definition Leia being Luke's sister or Vader being Luke's father are continuity errors since they were not planned at the time of their characters introduction.

Because she was a politician, not a Force-user. He could hardly turn her to the Dark Side before she even knew how to use the Force, and she would never have agreed to be trained by him. The point about his attempt to turn Luke was that Luke already had Force abilites; Vader was simply trying to persuade him to use them in the wrong way, knowing that once he started he wouldn't be able to stop.

Vader knew jack-all about Luke's force use or lack thereof. His force training had consisted of 30 minutes with a lightsabre on the Falcon by the time Vader had begun his search. It was obviously his potential force ability that Vader was interested in or his actions make little sense. And Leia "being a politician not a force-user"? Luke was a farmer is that profession more suited to Jedi training? As I said Luke had taken 30 minutes of pre-school Jedi training by the time Vader had begun his Skywalker search between ANH and ESB so he was hardly some unfathomable leap ahead of her in terms of training. And by the time Vader met her in ANH or pre-ANH Luke had had no history of force-use, Vader didn't know he existed and Leia would have been the most powerful potential force user he probably ever would have met apart from himself. Why do absolutely nothing about this unless....he could not tell that "the force was strong in this one" just through conversation and torture.
The point about his attempt to turn Luke was not that Luke already had force abilities but that Vader knew he was his son and knew therefore he would be hella powerful. This is explained by Kenobi in ROTJ. He didn't know Leia was his daughter, couldn't tell if she had force-potential without that information and hence left her alone.

All this could have been done quite easily from a story perspective WITHOUT Midichlorians. All Vader had to say in ANH was 'The Force is strong in this one' for us to know how 'special' Luke was. Making up some crap about little micro-organisms in the cells, which were never mentioned in the OT for some reason, is a far more 'awkward' way to do it than, say, simply showing Qui-Gon and another Jedi discussing his strenth in the Force.

Yes it could have been done WITHOUT midichlorians. Would it have been better? You say yes, I say no.

Yes, there is an obvious narrative case against it - two, in fact. One, it destroys the 'mystical' aspect of the Force - remember "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter"? 

Well it does make force use a little less mysterious if that is what you are connoting by the term "mystical". However it doesn't really change the "mystical" nature of the force itself, just our interaction with it. And I don't see how the existance of midichloians changes the truth of Yoda's statement at all.
Still I will grant you this point and this seems to be the crucial difference of opinion between a midichlorian basher and a midichlorian gusher. I don't really mind the force being demystified, quantified somewhat. Lots of Star Wars fans do. Its not the fact that it is an unnecessary addition to the saga but that it is one that some people don't like that is important

EDIT: OK I seem to have exceeded the allowed quotes - Helen's text is now underlined instead.

Two, it was never mentioned - not even hinted at - in any of the previous movies, and no matter how you try to explain this away it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

OK your reasoning here does not make sense. But we have been over this before and I have addressed this argument (that because it was not mentioned in the other movies its inclusion in TPM violates some logical law) in this post above. So lets move on.


Seeing the Emperor shoot lighting from his hands was not a problem, as Vader didn't need that ability during the movies and there was no way the Jedi were going to teach it to Luke. But failing to mention such a basic element of the Force to him makes no sense whatsoever.

Well now that you mention it I think it makes a lot less sense that Yoda didn't say to Luke "Do not underestimate the power of the Emperor - HE CAN SHOOT FRICKING LIGHTNING BOLTS OUT OF HIS HANDS!!! Watch out for THE LIGHTNING!" Then again...he may have said it offscreen


Anyway, I'm not going to argue this any more. I have other things to do and in any case, like I told you, I've been through all this before with someone else. Go ahead and enjoy the Prequels if you like them, and have a nice day.

Fair enough. May the force be with you. Midichlorian free of course.

This post has been edited by darthsmash: 28 April 2005 - 10:51 AM

[darthsmash]

My apologies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apology accepted. Seriously that winky-smile emoticon looks more like a kind of grimace than the sort of cheeky humour thing I was going for. Here it is again for those who missed it last time.

Bit odd eh?

This post has been edited by darthsmash: 28 April 2005 - 10:36 AM

[CowboyCurtis]

But quantifying the Force does not fit with General Motti's line of "ancient religion." How can it be a "religion" if it has a scientific basis? If you're in a society where you can read something in your body that focuses and controls energy by mere thought, then it becomes something else. It becomes a weapon, and you have soldiers.

There are so many things wrong with the midichlorination idea that it's ridiculous.

[StarWarsIsUs]

"Our main grief with midichlorians is that they provide a scientific explanation to something that didn't need it. "

BINGO!!!!!!!RIIIIIGHT OOOOOONNNNNNNNNN!

PT is a Psuedo-Star Wars made by a shell of what George Lucas used to be. A Pseudo-GL made a Pseudo-Star Wars.

It is implied in OT that power in the force is relative. Anyone who can use the force, is just as equally powerful as someone else who can... except for the factor of Light and Dark. Vader couldn't use force lightning like the Emporer, because it would fry his cercuits. Luke didn't/couldn't use it, because it is a Dark Side attack, and he hadn't learned exactly how to.

Medichlorians are Pseudo-Science in a P-SW. Force power, is relative. Given equally to those who can use it: it just has moral limitations and the only key, is knowledge.

I've repeated myself a few times, to make my point.

[xenduck]

wow, things seem to have gotten a little outta hand. this was supposed to be easy! so here i go again. like i said in my intital post, the OT leaves questions that need to be answered. most the questions arent answered cause they are not relevant to luke's story, they are, however, essential to anakin's. now i realize lucas didnt have midichlorians in mind originally, but in my opinion they are a valiant attepmt to answer these questions....

all that we know of jedi from the OT is that there was once more than two of them, they were hunted by vader and the emperor, they were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the old republic, and the majority of the galaxy seems to think the force is a hokie religion.

so my first question is, were jedi self-proclaimed guardians or were they goverment sanctioned? since self-proclaiming is self-righteous im going to assume they were part of the governing body (as seen later in the PT), but how can a technologically advanced society, encompassing countless cultures, endorse any one relegion? there would have to be quantifiable, emperical, proof...midichlorians! therefore, only a layperson would refer to the force as a religion (and probably they would get choked for it!).

can anyone be a jedi? no, sorry. if we could all use the force then we would be using it in some capacity; and to varying degrees. otherwise, luke would not be special or even valuable. but what predesposes one to the force?... midichlorians! but what makes one jedi (like luke or anakin) special?...midichlorains!(but where do they come from?)

so how could ben and the emperor know that anakin's offspring would be powerful? there must be something hereditary...midichlorians! (like a virus, they can be transfered through parents, though not a pretty analogy; maybe midichlorian is the name of the force-sensetive gene)

if forceadepts couldnt be identified, wouldnt there be other force cults besides jedi and sith? how could the empire stop jedi wannabes if no one could tell who was a forceadept?...midichlorians!

if force adepts are rare, and it takes one to know one, then how can a limited number of jedi find enough new recruits across an entire galaxy to sustain their cult? there must be something a layperson can test for...midichlorians!

This post has been edited by xenduck: 28 April 2005 - 06:17 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Chefelf- You speak of the prohpecy of the one who will bring balance to the forum. You believe it is this... elf?

Midichlorian people- The prophecy was flawed and confusing at best. Why is it even there? Anakin does not need a prophecy and it is never spoken of in the OT. You think Obi Wan would have said "I took to training him because my master believed in a crazy arsed prophecy" but he didnt. In fact hen ever ever mentioned Qui Gon.

As for Midichlorians the films would have worked just as well without them. And without these explanations time could have been spent on much needed character development. Starwars is not Star Trek. It involves swords, wizards (Obi Wan and Yoda and the emperor) and monsters. Starwars is fantasy. The Lord of the Rings did not have a lengthy explanation of the biological processes involved in Gandalf's magic. It was just there. There was no explanation for why the ring did what it did to Frodo, it just did.

Consider how lame this is:

"And then the one ring began to release sauranoreates into Frodo's bloodstream. The tiny virus slowly deranged his mind and manifested in various symptoms. In its final incarnation it would have turned him into a being like Gollum had he not cast it into the fires of Orodruin"

Yes, that explanation does work, but its wholey unecessary and it makes a mystical and mysterious phenomenon quantifiable without any apparent benefit. If anything I think the decision to include Midichlorians was influenced by Dragon Ball Z's success.

"Oh no! His Midichlorian count is higher than Vegeta! I have to go train with King Kai!"

[StarWarsIsUs]

*falls over laughing at Hof's reply*

[Lord Aquaman]

Apology accepted. Seriously that winky-smile emoticon looks more like a kind of grimace than the sort of cheeky  humour thing I was going for. Here it is again for those who missed it last time.

Bit odd eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're right.

[darthsmash]

But quantifying the Force does not fit with General Motti's line of "ancient religion."  How can it be a "religion" if it has a scientific basis? 

"Can't...keep....away...from...this.....topic!"

Well there is nothing in the film tom indicte that Motti is any sort of knowledgeable authority concerning the force, the jedi or the sith and in fact his experience with Vader is quite clearly meant to show us that h doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.
However if we were to ignore this and take his comments as "canonical" then that could very well imply that the force has some connection to one or more deities as this is usually, though not necessarily, what describing something as a religion is intended to reflect. As many would be quick to point out though, there is no (other) evidence for this in the OT (or PT).

If you're in a society where you can read something in your body that focuses and controls energy by mere thought, then it becomes something else.  It becomes a weapon, and you have soldiers.

The force is a weapon to the Jedi and especially the Sith. Although the Jedi use it for "knowledge and defence, never attack", it is clearly as useful a weapon to a Jedi as his/her lightsabre. And the Jedi were soldiers "You fought in the clone wars?" as the OT teaches us. So I don't see any of this as an objection.

There are so many things wrong with the midichlorination idea that it's ridiculous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[darthsmash]

"Our main grief with midichlorians is that they provide a scientific explanation to something that didn't need it. "

BINGO!!!!!!!RIIIIIGHT OOOOOONNNNNNNNNN!

PT is a Psuedo-Star Wars made by a shell of what George Lucas used to be. A Pseudo-GL made a Pseudo-Star Wars.

It is implied in OT that power in the force is relative. Anyone who can use the force, is just as equally powerful as someone else who can... except for the factor of Light and Dark.

Wow, I really strongly disagree with this statement as based directly on multiple references from the OT alone. "The force is strong in my family", "When I first met your father I was amazed at how strongly the force flowed though him", "the Emperor knew as I did that if Anakin Skywalker had any children that they would be a threat to him",. I just don't see how such an assertion can stand up against these statements alone, never mind the implications of story points such as the importance placed on Luke's decision by the remaining Jedi and Sith in the OT.
I would agree that from ANH one could, and most did, assume that force potential did not vary between individuals but it was never really implied either way. But by the time of ESB there were implications that this was not the case and by ROTJ its pretty much flat out stated as in the above quotes.
I mean you could argue that Obi-Wan was amazed at Anakin's force strength because Anakin was such a diligent student but when combined with Luke saying that his sister is strong in the force when Leia has had no force training and the line about Skywalker's children being potentially dangerous it becomes a pretty tough case to argue.

Vader couldn't use force lightning like the Emporer, because it would fry his cercuits. Luke didn't/couldn't use it, because it is a Dark Side attack, and he hadn't learned exactly how to.

Medichlorians are Pseudo-Science in a P-SW. Force power, is relative. Given equally to those who can use it: it just has moral limitations and the only key, is knowledge.

I've repeated myself a few times, to make my point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[J m HofMarN]

Families being tied to fate has nothing to do with medical or scientific nonsense! Lancelot didn't pass his midichlorians on to Galahad did he? Kings didn't pass on royal cells to their kids did they? The bible never explains how Jesus got special power organisms in his cells fro mgod does it?

It's a story element. It dosn't need to be explained. We don't want or need to know why Luke is strong in the force, he just is. Leia's force potential wasnt detected because she wasnt doing anything with it, she just had the potential but it was dormant. There is no reason why Midichlorians were necessary when we already had a perfectly good way of knowing if someone was strong with the force or not. Personally I'd rather hear.

"The force is strong with this one." Than

"His midichlorian count is higher than mine!"

Come on, how can you believe in your hearts that Midichlorians add anything at all to the story. As I said they were most likely influenced by the popularity of Dragon Ball Z.

[darthsmash]

Chefelf- You speak of the prohpecy of the one who will bring  balance to the forum. You believe it is this... elf?

Midichlorian people- The prophecy was flawed and confusing at best. Why is it even there? Anakin does not need a prophecy and it is never spoken of in the OT. You think Obi Wan would have said "I took to training him because my master believed in a crazy arsed prophecy" but he didnt. In fact hen ever ever mentioned Qui Gon.

As for Midichlorians the films would have worked just as well without them. And without these explanations time could have been spent on much needed character development. Starwars is not Star Trek. It involves swords, wizards (Obi Wan and Yoda and the emperor) and monsters. Starwars is fantasy.

Very true. Though superficially sci-fi in that it involves space travel and the like Star Wars is far more related to the fantasy genre, the OT in particular.

The Lord of the Rings did not have a lengthy explanation of the biological processes involved in Gandalf's magic. It was just there. There was no explanation for why the ring did what it did to Frodo, it just did.

Consider how lame this is:

"And then the one ring  began to release sauranoreates into Frodo's bloodstream. The tiny virus slowly deranged his mind and manifested in various symptoms. In its final incarnation it would have turned him into a being like Gollum had he not cast it into the fires of Orodruin"

A couple of points. Firstly, yes that was lame.
Secondly as I recall there were a number of occasions in the LOTR books where Tolkien/Gandalf tried to explain at some length why the ring did what it did involving transitions between this world and the shadow world and the ringwraiths etc. The difference is, and this seems to be your point, that they were not couched in biological terms. And this is why I think the analogy is flawed. While both are in the fantasy genre LOTR is set in a mythical prehistorical Earth of Medieval technological development. There is no way in Hell that Gandalf could have talked about a virus or red blood cells or sauroneates or anything else because even if he somehow understood them due to his great wisdom, nobody would have known what the hell he was talking about and the terminology to explain such things did not even exist.
SW on the other hand exists in a reality of hyperspace drives, holographic projections, bacta tanks and cybernetic beings. The technology, terminology and scientific development is all there for someone to be able to investigate and understand whatever physical correlates of force sensitivity there might be.
Once again I don't think there is any outstanding inconsistancy that anyone has raised in the introduction of midichlorians in TPM. Its just that some people don't like the change. And thats as valid a reason as anything else. To say "I don't like this addition" or "I wish it was this way instead" is all cool. There are things that i wish were different in the saga and would change if I could. midichlorians just happens not to be one of them.

Yes, that explanation does work, but its wholey unecessary and it makes a mystical and mysterious phenomenon quantifiable without any apparent benefit. If anything I think the decision to include Midichlorians was influenced by Dragon Ball Z's success.

"Oh no! His Midichlorian count is higher than Vegeta! I have to go train with King Kai!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Why not take all these people and give them the same number of midichlorians, say 10, but make some people stronger or weaker with the force anyway? Why not do that?"
"........But these midichlorians go up to 11."

[darthsmash]

Families being tied to fate has nothing to do with medical or scientific nonsense!

Hey watch what your calling nonsense! I love me some science.

Lancelot didn't pass his midichlorians on to Galahad did he? Kings didn't pass on royal cells to their kids did they? The bible never explains how Jesus got special power organisms in his cells fro mgod does it?

No but....they're not Star Wars. But now that you mention it the idea is growing on me and I want to see a midichlorian edition of the Bible.

It's a story element. It dosn't need to be explained. We don't want or need to know why Luke is strong in the force, he just is. Leia's force potential wasnt detected because she wasnt doing anything with it, she just had the potential but it was dormant. There is no reason why Midichlorians were necessary when we already had a perfectly good way of knowing if someone was strong with the force or not. Personally I'd rather hear.

"The force is strong with this one." Than

"His midichlorian count is higher than mine!"

Come on, how can you believe in your hearts that Midichlorians add anything at all to the story.

As I said before they explain much partiularly regarding the importance of Anakin to the force and help justify why the expanded SW saga is now more Anakin's story than it is Luke's. And I truly do believe deep in my heart of hearts that they add to the story. You'll just have to take my word for it unless you plan on opening it up and having a look.
You should check out this issue of SW Republic comic where a Jedi relays to his good friend ChancellorPalpatine the idea of his talented Padawan that the truth of Kenobi's report regarding the presence of a Sith in the Senate should be investigated by having all Senators submit a drop of blood for midichlorian testing. To help convince any sceptical Senators the Jedi suggests that his buddy use his tremendous influence by being the first to submit to the test. Palpatine says he doesn't quite follow it but it sounds lke a good idea and he'll get right on it as soon as the two Jedi return from their latest mission. Of course the next thing we see is a communication from Sidious to Dooku telling him to send overwhelming forces to one particular planet in order to ensure that a particular Jedii and his apprentice never leave the plan alive. Theres more but in short a great story that took the midichlorian idea and ran with it whilst also demonstrating the sheer bastardry of Palpatine to great effect. Even as he dies this poor fricking Jedi thinks the good Chancellor is his best friend.

As I said they were most likely influenced by the popularity of Dragon Ball Z.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[barend]

hmm so your right and most people are wrong. And the mental conditions, hahaha! so your saying millions of people in the world are sufferning from mental illness because they enjoy a movie. THe last 2 prequals have been a huge succes in the cinema's and on dvd. Are they all mental the ones that watch and enjoy them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A majority of people think throwing lit cigarettes into public bins is okay, a majority of people think leafblowers are a good idea, a majority of people watch reality TV....

but logically... It's all crap.
a majority of people DO have a mental illness...

it's called apathy.
and they'll settle for anything.

[StarWarsIsUs]

I said the KEY is KNOWLEDGE. Luke's family had a KNOWLEDGE of the FORCE, so the FORCE flowed through them. But that doesn't mean because one given person has more force flowing through them, that they cannot be defeated by someone who only knows a few force tricks. ITS RELATIVE. POWER IS RELATIVE. Egotism is an illusion created by our minds. What the OT said, the quotes you posted, are symbolic... given Egotisms.