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i dont know where you get your delusions... midichlorains made easy!!!

#31 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:31 AM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Apr 28 2005, 10:13 PM)
I'm sick of accepting the wrong opinions of others.  I've had intelligent arguments with people in the past but as for prequel gushing, I'm tired and fed up with it.

I have no time for people who like the prequels and I honestly think there's something wrong with their tastes and quite possibly, their mental conditions.

When I came to this forum well over a year ago, it was a haven of sanity, a place where we could get away from that rubbish.  And I've always found this, ALWAYS...


Don't mean to spoil the mood or anything by my presence but honestly it seems to me that there are so amny places on the net where the prequels are universally derided and anyone who derides them is told "LOTR f&*%ing rules SW sux". Although the balance seems to be shifting a little recently with some tentatively positive pre-release ambience settling in, this was more or less the rule for the past couple of years outside of dedicated SW haunts like TF.net Though admittedly this does seem to be the only forum seemingly exclusively dedicated to SW prequel bashing that I have come across. If my presence is that distressing then I'll leave you in peace.
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#32 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:34 AM

QUOTE (Lord Aquaman @ Apr 28 2005, 10:25 PM)
The fact that you don't see the stupidity of the midichlorians is very sad.

And darthsmash, you're the one living in ignorance, not us. We see the stupidity of the prequels for what they are. You and Nick Skywalker don't.

Dude it was a joke. Relax. Maybe that kind of deformed looking winky-smiley-face didn't quite capture my intentions.
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#33 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:36 AM

QUOTE (Nicholas_Skywalker @ Apr 28 2005, 01:23 PM)
Ive been going to these boards looking at them for a while and I have seen no so called "intelligent conversations" usaully all I see is stuff like: lucas sucks the prequals suck wow it would be cool if lucas died. Its like that every fricken day! Is it all your brain is capable of, midnless bashing? Tell me are you of the mindless dopes in shchool that picked on kids younger and smaller on them for no reason? because you certanly sound like one. And hey maybe im sick of your crap about bashing and im just trying to make an intelligent arguments but you cant take it.

Most of us here hate the Prequels, so of course we spend a lot of time bashing them. But that is far from the 'only' thing we do, as you'd find out if you tried looking through the forum a bit. We discuss the things we liked (or didn't like) about the OT; we talk about how the Prequels should have been made; sometimes we even defend elements of the PT.

QUOTE
hmm so your right and most people are wrong. And the mental conditions, hahaha! so your saying millions of people in the world are sufferning from mental illness because they enjoy a movie. THe last 2 prequals have been a huge succes in the cinema's and on dvd. Are they all mental the ones that watch and enjoy them?

Replace 'mental' with 'under the age of 16' and you have your explanation. No, not all the PT fans are kids, but I personally have never met an adult (outside of this forum, at least) who doesn't think the Prequels are complete and utter crap.

QUOTE (darthsmash @ Apr 28 2005, 01:23 PM)
I'm sorry. Its just that I feel that I have a duty to spread wisdom and understanding wherever ignorance is found.  wink.gif

Given your inability to come up with anything close to a good argument so far, your task is not going well.

QUOTE
Don't mean to spoil the mood or anything by my presence but honestly it seems to me that there are so amny places on the net where the prequels are universally derided and anyone who derides them is told "LOTR f&*%ing rules SW sux". Although the balance seems to be shifting a little recently with some tentatively positive pre-release ambience settling in, this was more or less the rule for the past couple of years outside of dedicated SW haunts like TF.net Though admittedly this does seem to be the only forum seemingly exclusively dedicated to SW prequel bashing that I have come across. If my presence is that distressing then I'll leave you in peace.

Most of us were attracted to this forum through Chefelf's 'Reasons to hate TPM/AotC' lists in the first place, so it's hardly surprising that the majority of us us are bashers. Most of us are not 'distressed by your presence' as such, but you should know that every one of your arguments has been made before by a guy called Jariten, without success. Believe me, you're not going to change our minds, and we're getting tired of posting the same rebuttals over and over again.

This post has been edited by Helena: 28 April 2005 - 07:36 AM

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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#34 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:39 AM

Helena maybe you should go out into the real world once in a while... there is life outside of your room you know (or wherevah the computer is kept) .
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#35 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE (Nicholas_Skywalker @ Apr 28 2005, 01:39 PM)
Helena maybe you should go out into the real world once in a while... there is life outside of your room you know (or wherevah the computer is kept) .

Actually the computer is kept in the computer room at my university (which is packed full of people, by the way). I don't even have a home Internet connection at present. So there goes your pathetic little ad hominem argument.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#36 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:48 AM

Uh I dont think that would have worked.... Plus it makes anakin a lot more important character and makes his turn to the dark side a lot more emotional and important also being the chosen one was one of the reasons why he turned to the dark side. If he had just some average Joe jedi then it would have been harder to believe he wipied out so many jedi and he was so much stronger, this way of him being the chosen one helps back up why his so strong.

Right now in the Prequels, Anakin DOES look like a "Joe Average Jedi" What has he done in the PT's to reveal him SOOO special, what makes him different from any other Jedi that Palpatine has to specially save him and preserve him? NOTHING! Anakin does absolutely nothing better than any other Jedi, therefore his so-called "high midi count" is pointless and has no point. I've only heard Anakin say he was better than anyone else, but I haven't seen him do anything better than anyone else.

When something has no point, it's not important to the story, he shouldn't be in the story.

Helena maybe you should go out into the real world once in a while... there is life outside of your room you know (or wherevah the computer is kept) .

Same can be said of you. Nobody asked you to come here.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 28 April 2005 - 07:49 AM

Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#37 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:52 AM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ Apr 28 2005, 07:48 AM)
Uh I dont think that would have worked.... Plus it makes anakin a lot more important character and makes his turn to the dark side a lot more emotional and important also being the chosen one was one of the reasons why he turned to the dark side. If he had just some average Joe jedi then it would have been harder to believe he wipied out so many jedi and he was so much stronger, this way of him being the chosen one helps back up why his so strong.

Right now in the Prequels, Anakin DOES look like a "Joe Average Jedi"  What has he done in the PT's to reveal him SOOO special, what makes him different from any other Jedi that Palpatine has to specially save him and preserve him?  NOTHING!  Anakin does absolutely nothing better than any other Jedi, therefore his so-called "high midi count" is pointless and has no point.  I've only heard Anakin say he was better than anyone else, but I haven't seen him do anything better than anyone else. 

When something has no point, it's not important to the story, he shouldn't be in the story.

Helena maybe you should go out into the real world once in a while... there is life outside of your room you know (or wherevah the computer is kept) .

Same can be said of you.  Nobody asked you to come here.
uh are you sure your watching the right movies? he desroyed a droid control ship he alone managed to save a hole planet from doome. His the only human you can race pods. Palptine evan discusses with him that he is the most powerful jedi he has evah seen. Also in the next movie we will see more of his heroics. And of cause his midi count. O yea he saved obi wan from death and saved palps in the next movie and defeated dooku something yoda couldnt evan do! this is in the next movie of course. And thats only in the first 3 movies. In episode 4 he kills obi wan kenobi one of 2 remaming jedi's left and might I add he killed the reaming jedi. And he also killed the emperor in episode 6! now talk about special!

This post has been edited by Nicholas_Skywalker: 28 April 2005 - 07:54 AM

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#38 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:11 AM

QUOTE (Helena @ Apr 28 2005, 09:42 PM)
I'm sorry? What about the whole of ESB and RotJ? Both Obi-Wan (in his ghost form) and Yoda would have had plenty of time to explain to Luke about Midichlorians; it only took a few seconds for Qui-Gon to give Anakin a basic explanation in TPM. Something that fundamental to the study of the Force should have been explained onscreen.

Alright add the 8 seconds of ghost Ben time in ESB and the 5 minutes from ROTJ. to that estimate of one day. Though its possible Ben said something about midichlorians to Luke after we cut away from the revelation that Leia is Luke's sister. Though by that time what would honestly be the point? "So yes kill the Emperor, and Vader and...oh yes! I've been meaning to tell you about these midichlorians but never got a chance what with dying and all. Well nows as good a time as any!"
QUOTE
Yes, they are. If they tell you how to sense 'the will of the Force', and Old Republic Jedi carried Midichlorian-testing equipment with them wherever they went, clearly they are important.

See my driving analogy from above. The hydrolysis of ATP to simpler components and the energy that they provide is obviously important to any form of muscular activity such as playing a game of soccer. But is any coach going to sit down and explain this to a kid that they are trying to turn into a better player? No. Because its not going to help them be a better player.
QUOTE
Luke is going to set up a new Jedi Order, which presumably means he'll have to know as much about the Force as possible - it makes no sense not to tell him about Midichlorians, especially if they can help him find possible candidates for Jedi training.

And its possible that Yoda did teach him as I said above. Its also possible that they were more worried about whether or not Luke was going to be killed/corrupted by the Emperor before he ever got a chance to start his own franchise.
QUOTE
Vader had presumably met Leia before, and the other Jedi characters already knew she was Force-sensitive but were trying to keep it from Luke, so it makes sense that none of them would mention it.

But if Leia, "the other hope", is as strong in the force as Luke was and the OT Jedi/Sith can sense it why would Vader not be having her killed or do his damnedest to make her his apprentice. They spent years killing off the Jedi why treat one of only two people in the galaxy that Yoda considered powerful enough to defeat the Emperor as an ordinary civilian prisoner. If he could sense that she was strong but not SUPERstrong in the force then it lends credence to the fact that Qui-Gon required special technical equipment to get a proper guage on Anakin's strength in the force. If he couldn't sense her force potential at all - then you're back in the same boat.
QUOTE
Besides, as you yourself point out, Qui-Gon had already sensed Anakin's strenth in the Force - so why would he have to 'measure' it using scientific equipment? He wouldn't need to be 'reeling and passing out'; all he'd need to do is mention that Anakin is stronger in the Force than anyone he's met before, and possibly take him to the Council for confirmation.

Well since Anakin was way past the age for Jedi training he would certainly have to take him to Coruscant to have a chat. The midichlorian is useful from the storytelling perspective because it lets the audience know eactly how powerful he is and lends credence to the Chosen One theory and thus why he does so much to take Anakin with him. He could say things like "I sense he is stronger than Yoda even. I sense he may be the strongest Jedi who ever lived." but that IMO at least is far more awkward a way of doing things.
QUOTE
There's no need for a 'definitive' measure of how strong he is; before the PT there was never any suggestion that the Force could somehow be quantified numerically.

Just because it was never mentioned before is no reason it could not logically be the case and no reason narratively why it should be the case. Nobody mentioned people shooting lightening out of their hands before ROTJ. I guess you either like the idea, don't care either way or hate it. They could have gotten around it I suppose. But they didn't. And here we are.
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#39 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:20 AM

giddi up! devil.gif
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#40 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:25 AM

QUOTE (Helena @ Apr 28 2005, 10:36 PM)
Given your inability to come up with anything close to a good argument so far, your task is not going well.

Wow. I guess I lost the debate then didn't I. Thanks for letting me know how badly I was doing and saving me more futile effort. rolleyes.gif
QUOTE
Most of us were attracted to this forum through Chefelf's 'Reasons to hate TPM/AotC' lists in the first place, so it's hardly surprising that the majority of us us are bashers. Most of us are not 'distressed by your presence' as such, but you should know that every one of your arguments has been made before by a guy called Jariten, without success. Believe me, you're not going to change our minds, and we're getting tired of posting the same rebuttals over and over again.

Fine then don't reply. I sincerely doubt that you are going to change my mind either, nobody ever does in these "friendly discussions" do they. And for what its worth I think I've probably heard pretty much all your arguments before also. And yet what a way to spend the day this is.
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#41 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (darthsmash @ Apr 28 2005, 02:11 PM)
Alright add the 8 seconds of ghost Ben time in ESB and the 5 minutes from ROTJ. to that estimate of one day. Though its possible Ben said something about midichlorians to Luke after we cut away from the revelation that Leia is Luke's sister. Though by that time what would honestly be the point? "So yes kill the Emperor, and Vader and...oh yes! I've been meaning to tell you about these midichlorians but never got a chance what with dying and all. Well nows as good a time as any!"

Luke asked what the Force was; that would have been as good a time as any. Yoda could have mentioned them at any point during his training. It wouldn't have taken long and it would have made sense; leaving out any mention of them does not. 'Midichlorians' clearly did not exist in Lucas's mind at the time he made the OT, so they should have been left out of the PT.

QUOTE
See my driving analogy from above. The hydrolysis of ATP to simpler components and the energy that they provide is obviously important to any form of muscular activity such as playing a game of soccer. But is any coach going to sit down and explain this to a kid that they are trying to turn into a better player? No. Because its not going to help them be a better player.

But the Midichlorians thing was explained to Anakin because, to paraphrase Obi-Wan, 'They tell you the will of the Force'. And Luke was hardly just a 'kid'; he was the man who was going to rebuild the Jedi Order. If Midichlorians were important enough to explain to Anakin, why not to Luke as well? And if Lucas really didn't intend them to be important, why the hell did he include them in the first place?

QUOTE
And its possible that Yoda did teach him as I said above. Its also possible that they were more worried about whether or not Luke was going to be killed/corrupted by the Emperor before he ever got a chance to start his own franchise.

But it wasn't shown, and something so fundamental to the nature of the Force should definitely have been shown. According to Qui-Gon, they determine your strength in the Force and help you to understand it. 'It happened offscreen' is a completely lame excuse for the obvious lack of continuity.

QUOTE
But if Leia, "the other hope", is as strong in the force as Luke was and the OT Jedi/Sith can sense it why would Vader not be having her killed or do his damnedest to make her his apprentice. They spent years killing off the Jedi why treat one of only two people in the galaxy that Yoda considered powerful enough to defeat the Emperor as an ordinary civilian prisoner. If he could sense that she was strong but not SUPERstrong in the force then it lends credence to the fact that Qui-Gon required special technical equipment to get a proper guage on Anakin's strength in the force. If he couldn't sense her force potential at all - then you're back in the same boat.

Because she was a politician, not a Force-user. He could hardly turn her to the Dark Side before she even knew how to use the Force, and she would never have agreed to be trained by him. The point about his attempt to turn Luke was that Luke already had Force abilites; Vader was simply trying to persuade him to use them in the wrong way, knowing that once he started he wouldn't be able to stop.

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Well since Anakin was way past the age for Jedi training he would certainly have to take him to Coruscant to have a chat. The midichlorian is useful from the storytelling perspective because it lets the audience know eactly how powerful he is and lends credence to the Chosen One theory and thus why he does so much to take Anakin with him. He could say things like "I sense he is stronger than Yoda even. I sense he may be the strongest Jedi who ever lived." but that IMO at least is far more awkward a way of doing things.

All this could have been done quite easily from a story perspective WITHOUT Midichlorians. All Vader had to say in ANH was 'The Force is strong in this one' for us to know how 'special' Luke was. Making up some crap about little micro-organisms in the cells, which were never mentioned in the OT for some reason, is a far more 'awkward' way to do it than, say, simply showing Qui-Gon and another Jedi discussing his strenth in the Force.

QUOTE
Just because it was never mentioned before is no reason it could not logically be the case and no reason narratively why it should be the case. Nobody mentioned people shooting lightening out of their hands before ROTJ. I guess you either like the idea, don't care either way or hate it. They could have gotten around it I suppose. But they didn't. And here we are.

Yes, there is an obvious narrative case against it - two, in fact. One, it destroys the 'mystical' aspect of the Force - remember "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter"? Two, it was never mentioned - not even hinted at - in any of the previous movies, and no matter how you try to explain this away it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Seeing the Emperor shoot lighting from his hands was not a problem, as Vader didn't need that ability during the movies and there was no way the Jedi were going to teach it to Luke. But failing to mention such a basic element of the Force to him makes no sense whatsoever.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue this any more. I have other things to do and in any case, like I told you, I've been through all this before with someone else. Go ahead and enjoy the Prequels if you like them, and have a nice day.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#42 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:46 AM

Helena you admitted there not perfect and your not a huge fan yet your nitpicky as hell!!
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#43 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 09:33 AM

QUOTE (darthsmash @ Apr 28 2005, 05:34 AM)
Dude it was a joke. Relax. Maybe that kind of deformed looking winky-smiley-face didn't quite capture my intentions.


My apologies.

Nick_Skywalker, again, this just may not be the place for you. I suggest you find a forum with people who agree with you, because you're not going to find many here (and attacking Helena won't help you).

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 28 April 2005 - 09:35 AM

I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#44 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 09:51 AM

I am a member of a few other star wars forums, pretty good ones and a lot of mixed people, some bashers some gushers but most just fans like me. I came here i quess cause its differnt its almost all bashers. While I was reading some of the comments I get a little pissed off because a lot of the bashing was just stupid and silly, some of the peoples post on this forum didnt evan make any sense so I wanted to come here and correct and people and well agure i quess. But its all good! I do agree with some of the stuff posted here though but not much of it. I probly disagree with %90 of the "reasons to hate star wars" page for episode I and II. Like some of them are pthe guys opinion but there are a few in there that are listed as incorrect but there not there are reasons and obvious ones behind them. Ill have to post of lists of fixings and reasons why there wrong some day but it will take forevah. The one I agreed with I remember on the reasons to hate episode II was the " my lady " quote that got repeated over and over again during episode II and that did tick me off. Also some parts of the love scens are a bit iffy and well stupid and at times blush.gif but it was convincing for me and I did get the impression what ani and padme were thinking so I think overall i did work but it could of been a lot better. I quess I could be really nitpicky and up up with a few dozens things but anyone can do that with any movie. As i have repeadly said " nothing is perfect"
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#45 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 09:52 AM

I don't like the prequels.

jariten does like the prequels.

I do like the original trilogy.

jareiten does like the original trilogy.

I do like jariten.

Who cares? They're just some movies.

This forum was never intend to be a basher's haven. It just worked out that way at forst because a vast majority of the people who came here did so because of my Star Wars articles.

I don't want any new members turned off to this community because other members think that only certain people should be here.

If your are unable to accept the opinions of others and the fact that there are people out there that have a different tastes in movies than you do, then perhaps Chefelf.com is not the right place for you.

The bottom line is that we are all Star Wars fans in some respect or else we wouldn't be here. People on both sides of the "great debate" are getting far too serious about all of this lately. Let's not forget that this is a movie about lightsabers and levitating rocks with a little green man. Let's just have some fun with the movies regardless of our opinions.

Look at Despondent. He's having a blast posting pictures of old articles and celebrating Star Wars regardless of his feelings on the prequels (and I think we all know his feelings by this point).

Why let your contradiction opinions on these movies shape your opinions on people as being "smart or dumb", "right or wrong"?

Isn't that just a bit ridiculous?

To all the bashers: You aren't going to change anyone's mind by telling them their opinions are wrong and that they are stupid.

To all the gushers: You aren't going to change anyone's mind by telling them their opinions are wrong and that they are stupid

Once both groups learn to accept the others' opinions we can all be a lot happier.

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