[Despondent]

"They were clouded."

[xenduck]

anakin is misguided because (assuming the will of the force is friendly) he doesnt listen to his midichlorians, he is conflicted and arrogant. he wont listen to obi-wan, let alone microorganisms. he is powerful becuase his midichlorians give him a slight edge. i see it that he is powerful for his age. his progress is accelerated further by the darkside, yet is he a match for a jedi master?

[CowboyCurtis]

But this is the other aspect of the midichlorians "guiding" people that is total bunk----because Anakin DOESN'T listen to his midichlorians, he switches to the darkside? And if the midichlorians are trying to guide him to the good side, and if they're so wise and stuff, why can't they just shut off the Force power from Anakin to prevent him from using the darkside, and so that their will is imposed over his?

Truly, having midichlorians this "wise and smart" just really takes away from the human drama in these films. Why bother with the human aspects if it's the midi's guiding and telling them how to live their lives? If it's so important to listen to your midi's to define your destiny and without them you'd be all lost and such, then ----WHY WEREN'T THEY IN THE FIRST TRILOGY????!!!!!!!

[xenduck]

slow down there, partner. no one said midis guide your destiny. no one said you MUST listen to your midis. no one even said the midis told you to do nice things. remember the force partially controls your actions, but also obeys your commands. the midis are like an ear-piece through which you tell the force what to do, or it tells you...or you compromise; anakin was unwilling to comprimise.

[DarthTherion]

Guys,

This has been a very interesting topic to read through. Congratulations to everybody on both sides of the debate for presenting thought-provoking arguments.

Personally, I see the inclusion of midi-chlorians as not exactly *necessary* (the OT would still make sense without it) but not detrimental to the story or the idea of the Force. In fact, the idea of midi-chlorians does explain the hereditary nature of the Force, provides a means for non-Jedi of the Old Republic to test for Force potential (and identify candidates for Jedi training), and might provide an explanation as to why Jedi are not allowed to procreate (children with Jedi parents would be incredibly strong in the Force, and thus families/bloodlines would dominate the council).

I never even thought the inclusion of midi-chlorians was such a controversial subject until I saw the vehemence with which some people rejected it. I think that the problem alot of people have with it is similar to the problem people have with the mixture of science and religion in the real world. If faith or "miracles" can be explained scientifically, does that take away their special quality?

As has been pointed out in this thread, science explains nothing about mystical phenomena. There's no difference between saying "I use the Force to lift objects" and "The midi-chlorians within me allow me to use the Force to life objects." It's not an explanation of the Force. It does help describe more precisely the heredity of the ability to use it, though. And it explains all those other things I mentioned above.

Also, I don't see any problem with the blending scientific concepts with the Force. It seems like the Force is Pantheistic, embracing both "spirit" and nature.

[Grand Moff Lebowski]

So the Jedi are a bunch of Blue-Bloods? What a bunch of elitist snobs.
Maybe getting into the definition of these things is what is wrong. Maybe we all could use the force if our mind were open to the possibilities. It's like an NBA player. We can all play ball but to be on the Lakers you need to be bad ass. Ar ethere people in the world who would be excellent players but never got the opportunity or chance. I guarantee it.

To make it such that a blood type is neccessary to be in the cool club is ridiculous.

So in that regard, it fits in perfectly with the PT. Crap. C. R. A. P.

If you need to justify a point so strongly, then that proves it stands on shaky ground to begin with. The movies present things that don't jive and people need to invent reasons to justify them. Why wouldn't a person's size affect how many Midi's are in them? Vader being cut in half would certainly lessen his Midi count. Why would little Annie's count be so high as a kid but not so high when Vader is a stumpy adult? Why wouldn't Yoda...oh F it......

[Mnesymone]

"and might provide an explanation as to why Jedi are not allowed to procreate "

Where in hell did you get that idea from?
Are they MONKS!!! Firstly its exceedingly poor form to make the heroes of any story celibate - also it was never stated, so my question as to where the hell you got it from still stands... if they are supposed to be celibate, then it adds an unnecessary degree of melodrama to Anakin and Padme... I'm sorry, this is a bit of a rant, but the Jedi were not supposed to be celibate... even according to Lucas's original vision - his oldest concepts for the Jedi was that in olden times, Jedi would train their children and their children alone in the ways of the Force. Children = not celibate.

[CowboyCurtis]

There's another aspect to all of this, and it's the statement, "May the Force be with you." I know many have brushed this aside as a greeting, or just saying "good luck," but it had to come from somewhere, and aspects of it are definitely used in the OT: "...the Force is strong with this one..." "Kenobi is here... and the Force is with him."

Again, what is the point of midichlorians when the Force "decides" to be with whomever, no matter whether they have lots of midi's or not! What would be the point of saying, "may the Force be with you," when you don't even have enough midi's to so the Force may actually be with you?

And, again, having midi's "talking" to you is bunk because, again, it takes away the human element---the human drama. To paraphrase Han, "I don't have any scientific thingies guidng MY destiny..."

In finish... OBVIOUSLY, we will not be convinced that midi's were essential to the plot, and OBVIOUSLY you will not be convinced that they weren't.

[Sagacity]

Maybe we all could use the force if our mind were open to the possibilities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And isn't that the point in the OT?

This post has been edited by Sagacity: 08 May 2005 - 11:39 PM

[Grand Moff Lebowski]

And isn't that the point in the OT? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen to that, brother. The natural ability in us all to overcome the faith we put in machines thinking we are more clever than the natural balance in the universe.

Wordy, yes. True, ABSOLUTELY.

[Despondent]

Amen to that, brother.  The natural ability in us all to overcome the faith we put in machines thinking we are more clever than the natural balance in the universe.

Wordy, yes.  True, ABSOLUTELY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to crowd in here, but Amen Sister.

Midis are like the angels and devils that sit on our shoulders, telling us what to do.

The wise, reason and think for themselves.
None of these types work at Lucasfilm (Limited.)

[Mnesymone]

"And isn't that the point in the OT?"

Hear, hear.

Not jumping on the bandwagon because its the bandwagon I've been on for years.

Maybe Lucasfilm is Lucasfilm (limited) because of limited collective intellect, or limited collective willpower to stand up to George and say "You can't have your podrace until you've advanced the plot."

[DarthTherion]

Midis "essential to the plot"? WTF?

I specifically said that they are *not* necessary, but also not detrimental to the idea of the Force. And, if you think about it, not entirely out of line with the OT.

1) May the Force Be With You -- if not a version of "good luck," or "God bless you," then this phrase must mean something like, "May your mind be clear enough to allow the Force to guide you." No? Midi-chlorians do not affect the ability of one to put oneself in touch with the Force. They merely determine a base of potential ability that can be gained through training.

2) Everyone can use the Force...yay! -- I'm not sure if this is the "point" of the OT. The meaning of the whole, "Use the Force, Luke" scene in ANH is that the human will triumphs over machinery. It's an analogy.
Force = human will, Jedi = exceptional human being capable of exercising his will. Death Star = Industrialization that constrains the human will

In the PT, machinery triumphs over the human will.

Are there any quotes that support the argument that any person can use the Force? I always thought that any person could occasionally tap into the Force to accomplish great feats in moments of psychological stress...but there are also certain people who are specially "Force-sensitive" to whom the Force "speaks" regularly (visions, premonitions, etc.). I could be wrong, but I can't think of any quotes that directly address this issue.

3) The "human drama" -- It does seem that the PT emphasizes fate more than free will. This is mostly because Anakin's destiny *is* set in stone. Good thing, too, cause alot of the characters in the PT are flat and have absolutely no personality. That's the sort of thing we should be criticizing here, not over-analyzing a really simple idea that does not alter the view of the Force much at all.

The PT is a tragedy (in more ways than one), and tragedies necessarily emphasize those universal forces over which man has no control. Anakin isn't likeable...well, neither is King Lear, for example. The tragedy in both consists in potential for greatness wasted due to unconscious flaws of the hero (this applies equally to Anakin and to Lucas).

P.S. I signed that petition on OriginalTrilogy.com...a really great idea, everyone should sign!

[civilian_number_two]

Are there any quotes that support the argument that any person can use the Force?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't say there are any direct quotes, but Luke goes from being unable to use the Force to being a Jedi master only with training. It is not an inherent ability. Folks go around saying "May the Force be with you" like it's something you say to ANYONE, not just to folks who have a high microbe count. Ben tries to talk about the Force to Luke. And yeah, in the once-official sequel, SPLINTER OF THE MIND'S EYE, Alan Dean Foster portrays a universe where anyone could use the Force. In SPLINTER, there are artifacts that help one access the Force, namely a Crystal, since Lucas was into crystals in the old days, before he got into microbes.

Let's not forget Lucas made this up as he went along, and that it really really shows.

[Despondent]

's got my sig.

Luke: "You don't believe in the force, do you?"

Han: "No, I don't, you freaking elitist bastard."


Good one Civ. It shows brighter than a million suns. Unless you're one to be dazzled by the C-f'in-GI