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Kevin Smith reviews ROTS guy who made Clerks and Chasing Amy

#31 User is offline   HeckHouse Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:11 AM

Well, in the OT DVDs released last fall, Harrison speaks about Lucas in the big documentary. And he sounds a bit bitter. He criticizes Lucas's directing style.
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#32 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE (HeckHouse @ May 4 2005, 09:11 AM)
Well, in the OT DVDs released last fall, Harrison speaks about Lucas in the big documentary. And he sounds a bit bitter. He criticizes Lucas's directing style.


Oh right. I saw that documentary, I even submitted that quote to Ford's bio page at Internet Movie Database. But I didn't find his delivery of the criticism bitter. I don't think Ford was the only one to say they weren't fans of George's approach to directing either.
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#33 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 12:27 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two)
Lucas dropped out of the DGA.  Lucas cannot legally make a film within the Hollywood system.  Lucas is not Hollywood.


Ah but you see, Lucas is not PUBLIC Hollywood, in that he's on the cover of magazines, etc. But he's created so many things that are essential to Hollywood that whether he means to or not- he plays a HUGE role in how Hollywood works. In a sense, he's the "phantom menace" of Hollywood, if you'll allow me the reference.

As for not being able to legally make a film within the studio system- who cares? Certainly not George Lucas, who doesn't seem to have much use for Hollywood. He's a perfect position frankly, because he doesn't care about or need the studios, but they DO need him. It's a seller's market for Lucas and he calls the shots. Just because he's not a public tyrant like some other people in Hollywood, don't underestimate his influence on the studios. He doesn't say much, but when he speaks- people listen.

QUOTE (civilian_number_two)
Harrison Ford has publicly disowned STAR WARS and no one has kept him from making movies.


Harrison Ford is a movie star and they're among the very few people in Hollywood who can say and do whatever they want (while they're still really popular). Having said that, disowning Star Wars is not the same thing as publicly criticizing Lucas, which to my knowledge, Mr. Ford has never done. In fact I've never heard him disown Star Wars, it's just common knowledge that he doesn't like to discuss it, etc. But I've never heard or heard of Harrison Ford putting down either the trilogy or George Lucas, all I've ever heard are old old stories about how Harrison Ford didn't like the dialogue when they were making the movies back in the 70's, etc. That hardly qualfies as talking trash about Lucas. Harrison Ford may THINK Lucas sucks- but he's way too smart to ever say it publicly. Until his career dries up and he writes a tell all autobiography, that is. In other words, in about 5 years.

QUOTE (civilian_number_two)
Find me a quote where he is saying nice things about Harvey Weinstein and I will back up your "Hollywood suck up" theory all the way.


I guess I didn't make my point clear on this. Kevin Smith doesn't need to say nice things about people to make movies. He just cannot say BAD things about them. His kissing up to George wasn't mandatory, it was just a good career move. It's okay to keep quiet in Hollywood (at least until you know how everyone else feels, after which it's okay to say whatever the crowd is saying) but if you speak up- that's when the trouble starts. Kevin Smith CANNOT publicly criticize anyone who's more powerful than him if he wants to keep working. He can say what he wants about those who are LESS powerful, but he can't say anything about those above him. It's just not gonna happen if he wants to keep working. As I said in a previous post, Hollywood doesn't reward those who speak out against it. The fans may cheer for people who do that- but the fans don't hire directors or make million dollar movies. Kevin Smith has to please the studios now, not the fans. And you don't do that by trashing people who make lots of money for the studios, directly or indirectly (as Lucas does, with ILM, THX, etc.) So as I say, Kevin Smith doesn't need to praise anyone- he just needs to NOT put them down. In Hollywood that's career suicide and Kevin Smith is smarter than that.


QUOTE (civilian_number_two)
All that stuff about Lucas controlling the entire business of Special Effects in Hollywood; that's nonsense, and definitely irrelevant to the sorts of films being made by Kevin Smith.


Take a look at Kevin Smith these days. He's all done making low budget indie flicks. He wants to make movies with studio money, not financed by his Mastercard. From the looks of it, he's ready to start making bigger movies and to do that he'll need the studios. You read all the time about how he's attached to the next big super hero movie, etc. He's clearly courting the big studios (or they're courting him) and he clearly wants to move to the next level of moviemaking. Making little comedies that barely break even is good, but I get the feeling Kevin Smith wants to be the next Sam Raimi and you don't do that by potentially pissing off your new masters.

Lastly let me point out that I never said Lucas controls the entire business of movies or even special effects. I just said that if you assume Lucas has little to no influence on Hollywood- you're very much mistaken. He stays in the shadows, but he is VERY powerful. You don't hear a lot from him and that's how he likes it, but that doesn't mean he's not a force to be reckoned with in Hollywood. To think otherwise is quite simple naive.
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#34 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 11:40 AM

I guess I am naiive then.

Anyway, Kevin Smith criticised THE PHANTOM MENACE, and he has recently praised REVENGE OF THE SITH. From this, you conclude that he is sucking up to George Lucas, because George Lucas pulls strings in Hollywood and it would be wrong for any filmmaker to criticise him. From this, I conclude that Kevin Smith honestly speaks his mind, since he said different things about the different movies. I don't know how you can ignore the critique in favour of the praise; I guess similarly you figure I must be mad to ignore the years between the comments, and the gestures Smith is making towards big-budget studio features now that he is an independent multi-millionaire. I admit I have not seen these gestures you refer to; I remember when he released Clerks X he said he was interested in going back to the beginning, to making low-budget films again, and dropping the excess of DOGMA and JAY AND SILENT BOB STRIKE BACK.

I don't know. You may have more information on Smith than I do. I'm not a fan; I just think that he is a bad filmmaker, that he has terrible taste in movies, and that agreeing with everyone else about THE PHANTOME MENACE was just a coincidence. I also think that when a guy praises a movie, it's silly to assume it's a part of a conspiracy. You don't have to go very far to find folks who love the new STAR WARS movies.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#35 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 12:42 PM

Well we agree on one thing, that Kevin Smith is a bad moviemaker.

Believe me I'm no fan of his. I think his movies are obnoxious and painfully obvious, not to mention they helped usher in a whole bunch of movies that are even worse. He's a lazy, sloppy storyteller and that's why I really hope he DOES get into bed with the studios, because they wouldn't let him release a movie that hasn't had the script revised at least once by a better writer. People hate the studios for thier constant meddling, but in the case of Kevin Smith- that meddling is sorely needed.

In any case, when it comes to Mr. Smith's thoughts on Star Wars, all I know is that his praise seems to far outweigh his criticism. And the criticism always comes AFTER the praise, never the other way around. In other words, after he looks around and notices that the whole world hates the new movies, THEN he changes his mind and says "oh yeah, they're not that good," etc. But initially, he always seems to have lots of great stuff to say about the PT films. That fact alone tells me that he's a "go along to get along" sort of guy, as most people in Hollywood are. Which is fine, frankly. I live in Hollywood and believe me brother, I'm the most "go along to get along" guy there is. You just have to be that way if you want to keep certain doors open. Of course I can afford to criticise George Lucas, because I'm a total nobody. But still, when I'm around high ranking industry types (which is infrequent, but it does happen) I'm careful to keep my yap shut. Why take the risk? I don't PRAISE Mr. Lucas but I also don't criticize him. There's just no percentage in it and in the case of Kevin Smith, that's a thousand times more true.

Anyhow, please believe me that I don't think Kevin Smith's praise of ROTS is part of a conspiracy. Because a conspiracy implies a secret of some sort and in this case- there's no secret. It's just good, common sense. You don't talk trash about people in Hollywood if you want to keep working. I'm not even annoyed with his praise, because I said, that's just a nice little insurance policy. What bothers me is that even if ROTS is the worst film ever made, Kevin Smith will never, ever say that. What he'll do is wait 3 months, listen to the crowd, then echo whatever they say. He may THINK it's a terrible movie, but he'll never say it. He's too smart for that.

Again let me reiterate here:

Praising Lucas is not mandatory in Hollywood.

What's mandatory is not voicing your criticism.

In other words: if you can't say anything nice- don't say anything at all.

But of course if you CAN say something nice, that always helps, whether you really mean it or not.

In any case, shall we agree to disagree, civilian_number_two?

You seem like a decent chap and to be honest, I've enjoyed reading your posts more than I enjoyed watching both of the last 2 star wars film combined.
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#36 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 02:57 PM

Wow, I never knew there were people who actually hated Kevin Smith. I thought the stories I'd heard of the anti-Kevin Smith group were just rumors. Now to see if there are any anti-Tarantino folk around here...
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#37 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE (snaithbert @ May 5 2005, 12:42 PM)
In any case, shall we agree to disagree, civilian_number_two?


I only agree to disagree regarding whether we can agree to disagree. laugh.gif

I'm not sure what's happening here, but it feels like you're making a big deal out of something that is just two guys second-guessing what a third guy might have meant when he said something. We're not having a major disagreement here.

Your comments re: Hollywood are appropriate, but most folks who hate something in Hollywood just keep their mouths shut; they don't hypocritically praise it. Smith's initial praise and later waffling needn't have anything to do with the "crowd" or with going along. That reaction is common with a lot of bad films; you like it at first, becuase of the effect, or the music, and then later realise it's crap. It's less common to hate something and then later have it grow on you (please, don't give me examples; it's LESS COMMON I sez, not unheard of). A lot of fanboys liked TPM the day they saw it, and hated it later. Smith is one of those fanboys.

I hate to do this, but I have to say I have met Kevin Smith and had a chat with him one time about a couple of things. He is a totally regular guy and a bad filmmaker. If he says he liked ROTS, I believe he likes it right now. If he hates it later, well a lot of other people will do that too.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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