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Is the catholic church a cult? Sensitive subject off the port bow!

#16 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 10:08 PM

QUOTE (Rhubarb @ Apr 22 2005, 08:42 AM)
Altogether now, kiddies... what do we need? "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE." Well done, my little dears. You all get sweeties.

Sweeties? Yahtzee must be getting to you. tongue.gif
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#17 User is offline   Yahtzee Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 11:06 PM

posted in YZ's account by accident

This post has been edited by Yahtzee: 21 April 2005 - 11:08 PM

As I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, I realised that it could do with a lick of paint.
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#18 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 11:09 PM

QUOTE (Voodoo dog @ Apr 22 2005, 01:58 AM)
By that definition if the scientologists became wildly popular overnight, they would be considered a religion.

Interestingly enough, the Church of Scientology is currently trying to get recognition as a legitimate religion in the UK. Getting a fair bit of backing for it too, by all accounts.

I'm curious as to why you are so determined to convince people that the Catholic Church is a cult when it blatantly isn't. It's a fucking religion by definition. By that I mean that the actual definition of 'religion' as we know it was pretty much defined by Christianity... it's impossible for it not to be the literal definition of 'religion'. But a cult isn't necessarily evil, and a religion isn't necessarily good. Who cares what label you give to Catholicism? It's an extremist group with way too much influence that promotes dangerous ways of thinking. Isn't that enough?

However, because I got interested in the literal 'cult' definition, and I don't want to waste the research...

The main difference between a cult and a religion, it seems, is that cults generally try to get you to come to them, and concede to their way of living, while Christians (to speak broadly) generally try to 'reach' people in the general community, and impose Christianity on their lives. Cults teach that the outside world is horrible and that to immerse yourself in the cult, usually by separating yourself from the rest of the world. Christianity generally gives people rules to follow for the very purpose of getting along in the outside world. A religion is also the veneration and worship of a divine being or power. Most cults don't really qualify here, although there are quite a few cult-offshoots of Christianity that don't have much to do with actual Christian doctrine.

'Cult' is often a term that's used to describe 'any religion that I don't agree with'.

And Jesus wasn't a cult leader. Cult leaders tend to be very pushy and overly-persuasive, in a getting-you-to-join-at-all-costs way, usually because your patronage means money for them. Jesus simply offered a life philosophy that would benefit humanity, and lots of people put him on a pedestal for it. I believe Jesus was, first and foremost, a humanitarian. The fact that many of his followers have warped his teachings to a fanatical point, exploit other followers for their own gain, and commit atrocities in his name doesn't change that.

QUOTE
And you have to admit, the church contains more paedophiles than sheer coincidence should allow.

This is because most paedophiles recognise that they have a problem, but are unable to get help for it, or to change the fact that they are sexually attracted to children. 'How can I dampen my sexual urges?' thinks the paedophile. 'I know... I'll live a vow of chastity and become a priest!' The paedophile becomes a priest... and suddenly finds himself in an infinitely exploitable position of trust with access to many small children, such as altar-boys and pupils. Boom.

If you'll read my post again, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just saying that you should choose your phrasing when you argue your points, so as to come across as more credible. A person who says "you have to admit, the church contains more paedophiles than sheer coincidence should allow," and goes on to give backing evidence such as news stories and court charges, is much more credible and difficult to dismiss than a person who just says "THE CHURCH IS FULL OF FUCKING PAEDOPHILES".

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They were the second worst thing to happen to Ireland, after the British empire.

Amen to that.
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#19 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 11:13 PM

That was an interesting post there, Rhubarb. Quite enjoyable.

Seeing as you tend to post more the Yahtzee(at least on occaisions), why not turn off his auto login?
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#20 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 11:27 PM

I do. The bastard turns it back on again.

And cheers. I like ranting.
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#21 User is offline   MacGyver's Mullet Icon

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:48 AM

Is the Church a cult?

In a word, no. It's far too broad for that - by which I mena not that its so 'big', but that the Church today encompasses a broad range of ideologies. Everything from the quasi-fascist Opus Dei sect to the quasi-marxist Liberation Theologists.

The problem with the Church today is not that it's a 'cult', its that its leadership is made up for the most part of reactionaries - the appointment of Ratty the First backs this up. But even within the Church, there is widespread disappointment at this descision. Of course no-one (well I certainly not me) seriously thought that they would appoint a liberal, but even someone slightly less reactionary than JPII would have been something. This didn't happen, so now the Church has to deal with this. It wouldn't surprise me if the Church begins to develop into a much more authoritarian cult-like institution over the next ten years as a result of this appointment (liberals leaving, extremists gaining more and more power even at a local level, moderates left powerless altogether), but at the moment I think it's incorrect to say the Church is a cult.

Now on the paedo issue, I don't think the Church is one big paedo institution. But certainly there have been many moves over the years to cover up this disgrace - Ireland is a perfect example. And these cunts should be prosecuted. No doubt about it. Pope Ratty however, seems to think the whole paedo thing is a 'conspricay against the Church' - now thats not a very helpful attitude to say the least.

Finally, as a fellow Irisher I understand your hatred of the Church orthodoxy - and its basically something I share. I dunno about you but I grew up in the 80's and early 90's, and while the Church power was nowhere near its excesses under Archbishop McQuaid & Co. in the middle of the 20th Century - when basically government had to seek Church approval on cerain political issues (this prevented us from having an NHS) - it was still powerful in the realm of education/indoctrination.

In short, the Church sucks. But its not a cult. Yet.
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#22 User is offline   Voodoo Dog Icon

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:55 PM

Rhubarb, we're both playing for the same team, but I have to disagree with you. I think there is only one difference between cults and religions, and this is it.

Religions are accepted by society.
Cults aren't.

It's a simple as that.

QUOTE (Rhubarb @ Apr 22 2005, 05:09 AM)
The main difference between a cult and a religion, it seems, is that cults generally try to get you to come to them, and concede to their way of living


The only reason the church does not do this is because it doesn't have to. It has had all the members its needed for centuries. They DID however try to get <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=people&v=56">people</a> to come to them and their way of life when they were starting out. And they didn't do it by knocking on doors and passing out leaflets, I tell ye that.

QUOTE (Rhubarb @ Apr 22 2005, 05:09 AM)
Cults teach that the outside world is horrible and to immerse yourself in the cult, usually by separating yourself from the rest of the world.


To this I have to say - monks. Monks and nuns. Not only are these <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=people&v=56">people</a> asked to give up their sexual lifes, but depending on the order they joined, they can also be asked to cut themselves off completely from the outside world, staying in the monastary or convent for the rest of their lives. And don't even get me started on that whole "vow of silence thing". At least priests are allowed to have <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=friends&v=56">friends</a>.

Oh, and as for the big J being a humanitarian, you are obviously not familiar with the following extract from the <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=bible&v=56">bible</a>.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26

If that doesn't scream cult leader, then I don't know what does.


The following analogy sums it up:

Cult=Crazy man
Religion=Eccentric

They're both basically the same except that one has more <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=money&v=56">money</a> than the other.
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#23 User is offline   Voodoo Dog Icon

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:58 PM

Damn HTML seems to be back. Try not to let it affect your judgement of my arguments.
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#24 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 10:17 PM

QUOTE (Voodoo dog @ Apr 22 2005, 12:55 PM)
I have to disagree with you. I think there is only one difference between cults and religions, and this is it.

Religions are accepted by society.
Cults aren't.


And I guess I'm going to have to disagree with you. My own opinions on this are posted above. To address your individual points...

QUOTE
The only reason the church does not do this is because it doesn't have to. It has had all the members its needed for centuries.


Hahahaha. You try telling a hardcore Catholic priest that the Church 'has all the members it needs'. tongue.gif (oh god these smileys are hideous)

QUOTE
They DID however try to get people to come to them and their way of life when they were starting out. And they didn't do it by knocking on doors and passing out leaflets, I tell ye that.


They didn't do any of that stuff when they were 'just starting out', because they were poor and lowly losers persecuted by the Romans (and Christianity wasn't a religion at this point, just a philosophy). They didn't become a religion until after Jesus was martyred, and I doubt that Jesus had anything to do with the mass-killings and forcible recruitment that happened after Christianity really took off. As I said, his future followers are always doing nasty things to people who don't agree with the way they see things. Most religions have this in common.

QUOTE
To this I have to say - monks. Monks and nuns.  Not only are these people asked to give up their sexual lifes, but depending on the order they joined, they can also be asked to cut themselves off completely from the outside world, staying in the monastary or convent for the rest of their lives.


Firstly, to me monks and nuns are not generally considered part of 'the flock' in general. They're more like recruiters. My main reasoning behind this is that the flock give money to the Church each Sunday, and the monks and nuns just cater to them in order to get it. Incidentally, this is indeed a trait that the Church shares with cults (manipulative money extraction), but they do use at least *some* of it to help their flock, which is distinctly uncult-like... and the main goal of the Church is to accumulate 'souls' rather than cash (although some certain sections seem confused on this). In terms of the flock as a whole, the 'give up sex' part still relates to their behaviour in the community. As does the 'pray to God on a daily basis' part, and the 'persecute gays' part.

Incidentally, you seem to have a major issue with the no-sex teachings of the church, more than any other. tongue.gif

QUOTE
Oh, and as for the big J being a humanitarian, you are obviously not familiar with the following extract from the bible.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26


I hope you'll excuse me if I don't take a stand-alone Bible quote too seriously. See, I'd interpret that passage to mean, "If you aren't a bitter, twisted, miserable old cunt, then there's no point in my telling you how to be happy and nice (because you'd already know)", rather than "I encourage you to reject your family and adhere yourself to me alone". I don't have a Bible in this flat, so I can't check the context, but as it stands, you can't say I'm wrong, and I can't say you're wrong. As I'm sure you're aware, the Bible is utterly open to interpretation, and pretty much anyone can twist a passage around to prove a point. I've had people quoting passages that 'prove' Jesus hated gay people (I'm sure you have too), and I bet I could find passages to prove he hated trees and rocks if I look around enough.

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus and Buddha had pretty much the same philosophy. Buddhists have just generally interpreted it better.

And since you didn't address it, I'll put it to you again why it's so important for you to prove that the Church is a cult. If you just want to discredit them, you don't have to change their label... I'm interested to know what your take is on this.

Also, on the topic of that irritating HTML... is this happening to anyone else? Do you have some class of virus or something...?
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#25 User is offline   Dr Lecter Icon

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 03:05 AM

QUOTE (Voodoo dog @ Apr 19 2005, 10:03 PM)
Fuck you all, i'm going to say WHATEVER I LIKE.

I really don't know what you said because I couldn't be bothered to read it, but I'll assume you rock because of this line.

PS Relgions are cults. There is really no difference, if I wanted to start worshipping pie, it would be no less crazy than worshipping God. Infact, if anything it would make more sense, if pies created the world. Everything tastes like pie damnit! Hence pies made the world to taste piey, in coalition with the chickens. God is fricken show off, therefore he can't be God. Pies are all powerful hence they don't have to show it off.

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 23 April 2005 - 03:11 AM

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#26 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 04:00 AM

Lecter, how can you say that cults and religions are the same thing when Rhubarb went to the trouble to define the difference between them?

Regardless, I would agree mostly with Rhubarb. Although she defended herself well enough, I would like to point out that being a monk/nun is an actual life choice to lock yourself away. Being locked away because you joined a cult is enforced. By that I mean, if you want to join a cult, you have to lock yourself away. If you want to join a religion, it's an option.

On the case of Jesus and Budda, there is one major difference. I know this as someone at uni took it upon himself to preach it for bloody ages whilst I was trying to eat. Basically, Buddha says we can reach nirvana through our efforts. Jesus says we can only reach heaven through God.
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#27 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 05:07 AM

QUOTE (SimeSublime @ Apr 23 2005, 04:00 AM)
I would like to point out that being a monk/nun is an actual life choice to lock yourself away.  Being locked away because you joined a cult is enforced.  By that I mean, if you want to join a cult, you have to lock yourself away.  If you want to join a religion, it's an option.


I guess I'm kind of stabbing myself in the back here, but being locked away in a cult is as optional as joining a monastary or nunnery. If you join a certain order that wants you to take a vow of silence, never see anyone from the outside world, flagellate yourself daily, and only ever eat gravel, then you do what they say because it's your damn choice. If you joined the cult, you agreed to abide by their rules (unless you're a small child and therefore bound to do what your family does.. but that counts for religions as well). I hear that some cults can get nasty about people who want to leave, but I doubt this applies to all.
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#28 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 05:37 AM

The main difference I ment to make is that you can be a catholic without being a monk. In your sterotypical cult, you can't.
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#29 User is offline   Dr Lecter Icon

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 05:45 AM

Worship pies damnit! I am Pope Pius I of Pieism! Is this a religion or a cult? Also, what about cult followings? Or Cult Satanism, they have real lifes, they aren't locked away from the real world.

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 23 April 2005 - 05:51 AM

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 05:57 AM

I thought Satanism was a religion. Sure, its comprised of egotistical twats in the main, but still.

And Slade is the official Pope of the forums. Your application is denied.
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