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Is the catholic church a cult? Sensitive subject off the port bow!

#46 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:11 PM

Geez, Voodoo and Rhubarb are pretty touchy. Ok guys, have fun. And please forgive me for posting ON topic.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#47 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:12 PM

And I'm less tired now, so...

QUOTE (Voodoo dog @ Apr 23 2005, 09:02 AM)
Rhubarb, since you express a desire to know why I am so eager to prove the church is a cult, I will tell you.  In the thoughts of most religious people, cults and religions are two distinctly different things.  If they realise this is crap however,  it might just take them from the hideous darkness of religious thought and into the bright shining light of atheism.

So your reasons are that you want to discredit Catholicism? Do you actually, truly believe wholeheartedly that they are a cult, or is it a convenient argument to suit your purposes?

I think it would do more harm than good. There are plenty of harmful religions in the world, and I'd much rather that the general public become disillusioned for the right reasons - ie that the Catholic Church is, and I quote myself, "an extremist group with way too much influence that promotes dangerous ways of thinking."

QUOTE
Oh, I forgot an argument you made the last time I posted, so I will refute it here.  If "the church is a religion by fucking definition" because the western concept of religion was started by the catholic church, how come society doesn't view religions such as hinduism and budhism as cults?

Catholics (and indeed, most extremist followers of any religion) often do believe this. Isn't it fortunate that the rest of us are much more broadminded, hmm?

QUOTE
Anyone starting a brand new religious movement now has to be starting on offshoot of an established religion or they will be instantly labeled a cult.  Even if they are an offshoot, such as mormonism, they will still probably be thought of as a cult.  If cults and religions are completely different things it should be possible for someone to found a new religion tomorrow.

As I said before, "'Cult' is often a term that's used to describe 'any religion that I don't agree with'." I didn't say that any new religion that starts out is a cult, and I didn't say that they aren't often mislabelled so, either through deliberate smear tactics or just skepticism. What I did say is that the Catholic Church is not a cult, as you purport it to be.

QUOTE
If brand new cults are completely different things to brand new religions, I would very much like to hear how they would be any different from one another in anyway whatsoever.

Sigh. How would they not be different? You've read my reasons and definitions that distinguish them, haven't you?

QUOTE
They would both agressively seek new members, as you said only cults did, because neither would have any members at all if they did not.

This is very presumptuous of you. 'Aggressively seeking new members' is not the same as 'badgering people to join and give them lots of money". And if they were a 'true' religion, they would probably not do this. Few actual religions start out with the intention of becoming a religion... usually some guy just comes up with a new life philosophy that appeals to a great number of people who then venerate him and the philosophy to the point of worship, with this veneration getting more potent over time (especially after his death, when his teachings can be 'reinterpreted').

QUOTE
I wasn't aware that satanism was considered a religion.  I am quite impressed they managed to pull that off.

Why? It fulfils all the basic characteristics of a religion, especially the 'worshipping of an established deity' part. The Catholic Church wouldn't agree naturally, but not everyone is a hardcore Catholic. And occasionally, Catholics can be quite *gasp* liberal.

I'm finding it hard to have a rational debate here when your basic line of argument, one that keeps coming up again and again under different phrasings, is 'Catholicism is evil, therefore it is a cult'.

QUOTE
And the HTML was due to a rather irritating piece of software that seems to have infected my computer, which I cannot seem to get rid of, called NT search.

Download both 'Adaware' and 'Spybot: Search And Destroy' and run them. Yes, both of them. Each of them tends to pick up stuff that the other cannot. If that still doesn't work, download the latest copy of 'HijackThis', and post the log on these forums (assuming that you aren't familiar enough with Registry Values to figure out which ones to delete manually).
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#48 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:14 PM

civilian_number_two, you admitted that you didn't read the thread and you were just posting for the sake of getting your two cents worth in there. All of your points were already covered, and if you didn't bother reading our posts in order to better relate to yours, I don't see why we should be bothered extending you the courtesy. Quit whining.
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#49 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 05:34 PM

QUOTE
I believe Jesus was, first and foremost, a humanitarian


Have you even read the bible, Rhubarb? He was not a humaniarian at all. Jesus spoke more on the perils of hell than he did the riches of heaven. In short, he basically said- I'm the way to God, there is no other way to heaven, follow me or be doomed.

He lost his temper with the aposltes on numerous occasions, knocked over stores, and called people "broods of vipers' and 'blind'. He was very cut and dry. Sure he healed the sick and spoke highly of the poor, but his main message was salvation, not humanitarianism. Doing unto others as they do unto you is good and all, but if you do follow that rule and still endore atheism or any other religon, according to JC, you're fucked.

If you hate religon and churches, then go for it, but don't pussy out and start going on about how good a guy Christ was, because accroding to his word, you're screwed with your current mind set.

"I hate religon and the church, but Jesus was a nice person" Bah, PC bullshit.

If you're looking for a hero, go to Cyrus the Great, he wrote the first charter on human rights. Of course, the bible deemed him as a 'good leader' so on the count he must be a bastard.
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#50 User is offline   MacGyver's Mullet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 05:36 PM

QUOTE (Rhubarb @ Apr 24 2005, 06:18 AM)
Well, my experience with Satanists was with a bunch of dudes on a Satanist forum who said that Satan was an alien and that gold has magical properties and frankly I didn't understand most of the doctrine because it was convoluted as hell. But they were right into the whole devil-worship thing, except that Satan was apparently misrepresented by Christians, which I found hilarious. They also argued that gold in particle form is weightless somehow. They were strange people.


Eeeeehehehehehehehe. Those guys were Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat, like Tony the Tiger when he sprinkles a cocoa-based powder on his Frosties instead of sugar.

Y'know when Orwell wrote "if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever" in Nineteen Eighty-Four? Well, to paraphrase, "if you want picture of rational debate with these people, imagine banging your head off a brick wall - forever".

Such a shame they took down the forum.

Also, slightly on topic - the Roman Church does indeed still excommunicate 'heretics', or did so as late as the 1980's anyway. There were a whole bunch of Liberation Theologists chucked out for stuff like, helping poor people empower themselves and fuck out dictators and other unchristian works.

This post has been edited by MacGyver's Mullet: 24 April 2005 - 05:39 PM

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#51 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 06:09 PM

Well, aren't we just the reactionary.

Yes, I've read the Bible, although only once all the way through, when I was at school and it occurred to me one day to actually find out what was in this thing they were making me study, and I remember thinking that this Jesus fellow was not such a bad guy. As I said before, I have no Bible here in this flat and can't prove or disprove anything with actual chapter and verse, but I distinctly remember being one very surprised angsty teen when my research came up with a lot of 'PC bullshit' from his teachings that I actually agreed with. I kind of like the Bible. Even the psycho stuff is entertaining at the very least.

QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 24 2005, 05:34 PM)
his main message was salvation, not humanitarianism

Alright, I'll concede that point. He was a bit of a raving nutter, by all accounts. I'm not saying that he was all-round wonderful and everything he said was gold. I'm sure he went around preaching a lot of stuff I wouldn't agree with. But I still think he had a lot of decent ideas consistant with humanitarianism, and would be someone I wouldn't mind having a pint with, if I could filter out his mutterings. This is all speculation, of course, since he's long dead and his teachings reinterpreted hundreds of times over. Ain't diversity wonderful?

Anyway. May I have some quotes, please?

QUOTE
If you hate religon and churches, then go for it, but don't pussy out and start going on about how good a guy Christ was, because accroding to his word, you're screwed with your current mind set.

It's okay for me to hate religion and churches?

QUOTE
Of course, the bible deemed him as a 'good leader' so on the count he must be a bastard.

Ooh, you were doing so well up until then.

MacGyver's Mullet - They took it down? I didn't even notice. I bet it's up again elsewhere on the web, though. Those people need each other... unison through inanity and so forth.

This post has been edited by Rhubarb: 24 April 2005 - 06:11 PM

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#52 User is offline   MacGyver's Mullet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 06:52 PM

Well Trey told me they took it down - its not like I ever went back after about the second week tongue.gif (and yes these smilies suck)

Edit: Actually, its still there. They just stopped coming to it.

This post has been edited by MacGyver's Mullet: 24 April 2005 - 07:12 PM

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#53 User is offline   Rhubarb Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 07:30 PM

beno666! Oh wow, that takes me back. He used to get so rabid. I thought he was taking the piss for the longest time.

Shame there's not much to read now... the threads have all died of old age. There was some classic stuff in the Science section.

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#54 User is offline   Chyld Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 07:36 PM

But I hate alienation, it leaves me feeling so alienated... sad.gif
When you lose your calm, you feed your anger.

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#55 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 12:00 AM

QUOTE (Rhubarb @ Apr 24 2005, 04:14 PM)
civilian_number_two, you admitted that you didn't read the thread and you were just posting for the sake of getting your two cents worth in there. All of your points were already covered...


Ok, so you DID read it, and then posted to say that you hadn't. Wow. I guess this was to hurt my feelings. I am crying as I type this, and will likely commit suicide later. I hope you are happy!
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#56 User is offline   Voodoo Dog Icon

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 02:42 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Apr 25 2005, 06:00 AM)
Ok, so you DID read it, and then posted to say that you hadn't.  Wow.  I guess this was to hurt my feelings.  I am crying as I type this, and will likely commit suicide later.  I hope you are happy!


Actually, I'm pretty sure it was Dr Lecter who said he couldn't be arsed to read the thread, and since he agreed with me, I'm hardly going to slag him off am I? Seriously, I'm sorry you feel bad, but being fully engaged in the titanic struggle between good and evil that is the argument between me and Rhubarb(I'll leave it to you to decide which one is which) it was rather annoying to have to repeat myself. Not that its a crime to accidently repeat ideas already brought up, I have a nasty feeling I did this myself in the girls vs boys thread on chefelf myself, but the girls vs boys thing was over 12 pages at the time I posted, and this one was only 3. On something like this its important to keep up with every point made so you don't get left behind.
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#57 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 11:29 AM

Ok, I read it now. It was a very intelligent and thought-provoking discussion, which I had no part in. I apologise for my unprecedented rudeness and hereby acknowledge my error. Thank you all for this lesson in patience.

-civ (chose life!)

This post has been edited by Yahtzee: 25 April 2005 - 04:49 PM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#58 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 02:33 AM

QUOTE (Rhubarb @ Apr 24 2005, 01:18 AM)
Well, my experience with Satanists was with a bunch of dudes on a Satanist forum who said that Satan was an alien and that gold has magical properties and frankly I didn't understand most of the doctrine because it was convoluted as hell. But they were right into the whole devil-worship thing, except that Satan was apparently misrepresented by Christians, which I found hilarious. They also argued that gold in particle form is weightless somehow. They were strange people.


blink.gif

the problem... is that there are too many groups calling them selves 'satanists'

and they give themselves a bad name by mostly being idiots, but then each group gives each other an even worse name by being dumber....

the satanists of the 60s came up with cool music and film...

everyone after that was a tubby goth who couldn't get a girlfriend and though saying he was a satanist would make him contraversial enough to get a girl friend...

i don't know which is sadder, the pathetic guy, or the lame cow that went out with him...

This post has been edited by barend: 26 April 2005 - 02:34 AM

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#59 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 05:02 AM

I would say the offspring that is subjected to them.
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#60 User is offline   Voodoo Dog Icon

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 06:58 AM

If theres anything to be learnt from this whole experience its this. Never ever say anything like

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Apr 23 2005, 07:14 PM)
I haven't read most of this thread, so forgive me if I repeat things said by others.


Its like saying "Don't be silly, I'm sure those mushrooms are perfectly harmless" or "Sure fuck it. I'm sure the handgun isn't loaded. Let the little angel play with it if he wants to." Its just asking fate to punch you in the nuts.
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