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Anakin's Turn To The Dark Side It's giving me a headache...

#31 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 07:50 AM

Prophecies suck.

I can't imagine the OT with Vader not revealing himself to be Luke's dad. Leia being made Luke's sister, THAT was too soap opera-ish and could have been left out. (Mark Hamill probably didn't like the idea either)
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I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#32 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE
But Luke didn't turn to the Dark Side anyway, so it doesn't matter. The point I'm trying to make is that if Luke had given in to his anger, agreed to become the Emperor's apprentice, then happily gone off and carved up a bunch of Ewok babies within the space of a few minutes - which is essentially the equivalent of what Anakin does in Episode III - it would have been ridiculous. The Dark Side may be powerful but there's no way it could work that quickly, especially if Vader still has some good in him after 20 years.


I always thought the best way to turn a Jedi evil is to get him to do something he feels right in the wrong way. Like killing other bad guys.

For example. Introduce a Sith apprentice in episode I. Let Anakin duel him in episode II in a scene reminiscent of the throne room of ROTJ. Anakin can't win and the emperor or the apprentice tricks him into giving into his anger. Maybe he can be really pissed off over his wife, as Luke was over Leia. So Anakin beats the apprentice using the dark side, in a fashion similar to Luke chopping off Vader's arm. Only, instead of throwing away the saber, he holds onto it and finishes the job. Now, he shouldn't turn to the dark side right away. He can run away back to the Jedi but now has this dark taint inside him.

He still thinks he's a good guy but he knows how good using the dark side felt.

The rest of episode II could involve this Anakin and the Jedi fighting the evil third-party force of the Clones. Anakin would be less hesitant about using the dark side for the good and noble purpose of defeating the enemy Clone Armies and still thinks Palpatine is a good guy. Another noble purpose to join Palpatine woudl be the quest for order and peace in the galaxy. Anakin wants to be a good guy and the promise of become a glactic peacemaker may be seductive. Can't you see a dialogue with Palpatine like "Anakin, you have so much power, you could use it to help me bring peace and order to the galaxy. We could save so many systems from destruction. I need you. The galaxy needs you."

So anyway Anakin would slowly degenerate over the course of the film until the climax where the emperor finally nabs him.

Naturally, this whole set up makes more sense if you see little hints of a dark side within anakin from the start. A perfect waste of a scene is the fact that baby Anakin should have grinned with pleasure at seeing his pod race opponents blow up or at least SOMETHING like that.
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#33 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 08:25 PM

All good points...

except the bit about the pod race.

A lot of people get the idea that an alternative prequel should have elements of the current prequels - I think... THEY SHOULDN'T.

As for the motivation for bad guys - sure.
Remember Vader's spiel in Empire to Luke.
"Together we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."
Good intentions, Bad means. That's what separates a genuinely convincing villain from the guys from children's cartoons - Lucas seems to have forgotten that with his current Fall of Anakin.
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#34 User is offline   BinarySunset Icon

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 12:31 PM

Hi,

Delurking a minute to say:

I am SO glad to read this -
QUOTE
Necessary to this scenario is the assumption that Anakin has had at least a few years to build up a career as an honourable soldier. This is one reason why I think that the Anakin who "turns" should be middle-aged, not a youngster scarcely out of adolescence.


Back when I first saw ROTJ in theaters, my best friend and I discussed and both envisioned Anakin as 30-something when he and Obi-wan met and that he was at least 40 when he "turned to the dark side". I was baffled and let-down when I saw Jake Lloyd was cast to play Anakin in PT - what??? how far back were we going in Anakin's life?

And now, a 20-something Anakin is supposed to turn to the dark side? This is my pet peeve with the PT: Anakin is too damn young for this to happen. IMO, just about every humanoid is pouty, arrogant, knows-it-all in their 20s. That's what your 20s are for - to think you can conquer the world as a "new" adult. After you hit 30, you realize how much you don't know, etc., etc. Or in the case of Anakin (in my version of his life) his 30s are where he would learn more than one way to use the Force; more than one way to live life; and might choose a path that wasn't necessarily the "straight and narrow".

So, I have always felt that Anakin should be at least 30-something, if not "middle-aged" when he takes the dark path and assumes the persona of Vader.

Just wanted to say that I'm glad to know I'm not alone in thinking the character of Anakin should be older. And I really like some of what I'm reading here. I'd love to read some novelizations of these ideas and see a "real fall of Anakin" instead of what (I fear) we will see in ROTS.
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#35 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:46 PM

Yeah, I had figured the turning would happen a little later when he's 28-32 or so.

I figured he's 15-16 in Episode I when he's found.
Ten years for training, 25-26, in Episode II.
Five years or so of the clone wars putting him at 30 or so in Episode III.
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Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#36 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 09:24 PM

I'm going with mid-twenties fighter pilot when we meet him, training as a Jedi (remember it didn't take Luke that long, so why should Anakin take bloody ages, especially given the urgency of the Clone Wars) and having him turn about a decade after we meet him, give or take a few years.
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#37 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 07:15 AM

QUOTE (BinarySunset @ Apr 20 2005, 06:31 PM)
And now, a 20-something Anakin is supposed to turn to the dark side?  This is my pet peeve with the PT:  Anakin is too damn young for this to happen.  IMO, just about every humanoid is pouty, arrogant, knows-it-all in their 20s.  That's what your 20s are for - to think you can conquer the world as a "new" adult.  After you hit 30, you realize how much you don't know, etc., etc. 

But this is the whole point - an obvious reason for Anakin to fall to the Dark Side is his arrogance and inexperience as a young man in his 20s. Personally I would have him be 18-20 years old at the beginning of the Prequels - about the same age as Luke in ANH. But this is just my own preference; making him slightly older would also work.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#38 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 09:40 AM

When Luke finally unmasks him in ROTJ, he looks rather ancient, but if he's only in his early 20s when he becomes Vader and then another 20 some odd years pass between Ep 3 and ANH, then he's only 40 some years old at the time of his death.

Clearly the dark side does not do much for one's appearance. I guess that's why there aren't any female Sith lords.

Question for Helena - would an Anakin in his late 20s (like 28 or 29) have worked for you?
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#39 User is offline   Johnny Utah Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 12:30 PM

QUOTE
(remember it didn't take Luke that long, so why should Anakin take bloody ages, especially given the urgency of the Clone Wars)


The reason for the difference in how long it took to teach Luke compared to Anakin is because Luke was instructed differently. Yoda was instructed by Qui Gon in the ways of the living force while Yoda was living on Dagobah and Luke was growing up. Yoda had realized that the Jedi had not changed and for the survival of the Jedi order, and the galaxy for that matter, the Jedi must evolve. Yoda figured out that the Sith did evolve while the Jedi remaned stagnant So when Luke came to Yoda Luke was intructed differently than the Jedi had been in the past.
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#40 User is offline   BinarySunset Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE
But this is the whole point - an obvious reason for Anakin to fall to the Dark Side is his arrogance and inexperience as a young man in his 20s.


I understand what you're saying, Helena, about the arrogance and inexperience of one's 20s and I agree. To add to this, it's been my experience that when people hit "the big 3-0", they get "life's little wake up call" and usually come to realize just how arrogant and inexperienced they were in their 20s. And at this time, an unconcious decision is made (sometimes it's even of a spiritual nature): either grow and improve as a person from within OR continue in the arrogant and pompous ways and as folks don't want to be around you, become a miserable person who's misery becomes a vicious cycle.

Having lived on both Coasts of this country and having gotten to know a lot of people, I'd say it's something that many of us go through. So I figured Anakin would at least reach "the big 3-0" and have that "lightbulb" go off but either on his own, or under duress from the War, and/or certainly with cajoling and seducing from Palpatine, would make the "unhealthy" decision to remain in an arrogant way of being and (in his case) take the dark path and continue to dwell in it.

Sidebar:
I was a DOOZY in my 20s! If you called me "the B word", I revelled in it. I guess I could've been called Lady Vader, but I wasn't around Star Wars fans, so I was instead called "Die Fuhrer" (behind my back, of course). My point: I, thankfully, didn't continue down this dark path. But... I was older before I understood how unhealthy it was.

So I guess I've applied these kind of life experiences to Anakin and in my own version of things, he would be older.

I love this kind of discussion - love it!! biggrin.gif
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#41 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 01:59 PM

"B Word?" "Lady Vader?" Binary are you female? (Don't kill me for saying this), I always thought you were a guy...

The reason for the difference in how long it took to teach Luke compared to Anakin is because Luke was instructed differently. Yoda was instructed by Qui Gon in the ways of the living force while Yoda was living on Dagobah and Luke was growing up. Yoda had realized that the Jedi had not changed and for the survival of the Jedi order, and the galaxy for that matter, the Jedi must evolve. Yoda figured out that the Sith did evolve while the Jedi remaned stagnant So when Luke came to Yoda Luke was intructed differently than the Jedi had been in the past

Well, first off, you're using Lucas-Prequel info. Yoda was NOT instructed by Qui-Gon. You can't tell me that a 900 year old person would not have a far more complete idea of what the Force was all about than a (relatively) wet-behind-the-ear Jedi. I can not and will not swallow the Qui-Gon teaches Yoda thing EVER.

The way Yoda teaches Luke in ESB implies that this dude has been doing it for sometime, not just the last .02% of his life.

What Lucas has presented is pure BULL... SHIT!!

Yoda figured out that the Sith did evolve

Yeah, REAL evolved. "Rule of Two" for the last thousand years. Brilliant.. brilliant. And if you say they dropped it and now Dooku had taught GG and all that... then they are just adopting the way of the Jedi. That makes no sense.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 21 April 2005 - 02:02 PM

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All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#42 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 03:08 PM

I don't think Anakin should even be as young as 25 or 30 when he begins to "turn". I think he should be maybe 40 or even older. It isn't the young and stupid who do the most damage, it's the old and experienced, the general or politician or other person in authority who slides slowly into corruption as the years pass.
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#43 User is offline   BinarySunset Icon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 04:15 PM

QUOTE
I think he should be maybe 40 or even older. It isn't the young and stupid who do the most damage, it's the old and experienced, the general or politician or other person in authority who slides slowly into corruption as the years pass.

ITA - completely and positively! Just look at current events in this country - but I digress...

If you read my post on the previous page, you'll find out that I truly envisioned a "middle aged" man heading down the dark path. Especially since Obi Wan says when he met him, he was already this great pilot and they were such good friends, yada, yada, yada. Since Obi Wan was initially shown to us (portrayed by) Alec Guiness, who was definitely an old man, I naturally assumed that Obi Wan was supposed to be over 65, and that he an Anakin had known each other for at least 30-35 years and that they may have been close in age, with Anakin slightly younger. Which, to my mind, would make Anakin somewhere in his mid-30s when they met and somewhere around his early-to-mid 40s when he "turned".

And in my more recent post (in answering Helena), I was saying that I really can't see Anakin being any younger than age 30 because, it's after that point that one starts to get "real life" experience. As you said, "it's the old and experienced" who can do major damage. I guess that's what I was trying to get at, but you put it much more succintly. Thank you.

However, with what Lucas has presented to us (Anakin as a 9-10 year old, for gosh sakes! wacko.gif and then the "teenaged stalker creep" as everyone here seems to refer to him) I've had to adjust my thinking a tad bit to allow that Anakin could be in his early 30s when he turns - but this is only because I have to reconcile myself somehow to seeing young Hayden on the screen. [I know Hayden is a mere 24 now which means he was even younger when filming these Eps.] So I'm hypnotizing myself to believe that Anakin is like some members of my family, "looks 12 years younger than he actually is". innocent.gif

Now, here's something I have not brought up anywhere else, but I feel "safe" here at this board, so here goes:

from what Obi Wan said in both ANH and ROTJ, did anyone (other than my best friend and myself) think of Anakin as, perhaps, someone who became a "religious fanatic"? Having gone through Catholic school all my life, I jumped right on the religious connotations of The Force and "May the Force be with you", along with assuming he was older. As a Catholic hs grad when ROTJ came out, it didn't take much for me to think of Anakin as becoming the best pupil in religious teachings of The Force. That he saw himself as "defender of the Faith" and that through his zeal and unrecognized arrogance, evil (whether a "spiritual" evil or whether in the person of Palpatine) came in and warped him.

Not trying to spark any kind of religious debate; just wondering if (through your years of conversing on this board or elsewhere) anyone had that kind of thought about Anakin? In my version, religious zeal would be why/how he turned.

Finally: yes, CowboyCurtis, I AM WOMAN (hear me roar). I'm also telling my age with that one. tongue.gif
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#44 User is offline   Johnny Utah Icon

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 02:10 AM

I reread some of the posts about the prophecies about Anakin being the chosen one to bring balance to the force and it seems that none of you got the fact that he did exactly that. Anakin started out innocent as a boy, was discovered by the Jedi, knew their rejection of him because of his age, only to be grudgingly accepted by them when he showed that he was pretty much the force incarnate. Then, after many adventures and loving Padme, he gets warped by both his own emotions and his impetuous nature and knows the dark side of the force. At the end of RotJ, Anakin/Vader comes to his senses after being believed in by his son, Luke, and kills the Emperor to save his son. This one act of redemption (sacrificing himself for an innocent person) shows that Anakin knew the force from both sides. The prophecy was that the chosen one would bring balance to the force. What everyone seems to be missing is that this means that whoever was the lucky guy had to know both the good and the dark sides of the force completely, then had to bring them together with equal amounts of both. GL lifted many of the Jedi religious philosophies from Taoism - think ying and yang - which totally emphasizes that everybody has components of light and dark inside of them - their life force does, too. In the books (yes, I've read all six, including the new one), it mentions a little more detail of what everyone is feeling and how each character struggles. Yoda's (and Mace Windu, also) struggle is that he sees the force being clouded and the dark side growing stronger. The dark side grows stronger because (quoted from the book as Yoda battles Palpatine in the senator chambers) "The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new. While the Jedi - the Jedi had spent that same millennium training to fight the last war.
The new Sith could not be destroyed using a light saber; they could not be burned away by any touch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?" Pretty much what Yoda realizes at this time is that the light side of the Force cannot defeat the dark side because the dark side had found other ways to gain power. Yoda figures out that the light side of the force is going to have to get with the program and relearn some ways - new ways of training and using the force. Later, as Yoda recovers from his battle (the only reason he got away from Palpatine was because Palpatine had to leave to go rescue Anakin from the lava), he meditates and the force talks to him with QuiGon Jinn's voice. Qui-Gon goes on to tell Yoda that "with my help you can learn to join with the force, yet retain conciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps, in time, even your physical self." Yoda goes to Dagobah and does this new training with QuiGon and we see that indeed, Yoda does join the force with his physical self and retain his own conciousness - Yoda's body disappears (which the other Jedi bodies did not - they were cremated) and he talks to Luke when he needs to. Consider, too, Obi-Wan. After Anakin is gone and Padme dies, there is a meeting held. After the fate of the children is decided, Yoda informs Obi-Wan that "In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you. I and my new Master." QuiGon's training extends to Obi-Wan as well. Obi-Wan disappears when Darth Vader fights him on the Death Star in ANH and in the book, Vader is portrayed as extremely puzzled and pokes at the empty robes with his light saber and doesn't savor the moment of revenge against his old master. In fact, in both the movie and the book, that fight is downright disappointing because of the anticlimatic nature of it - I mean, compare - the fight over the lava to the duel in front of the MF on the Death Star. Anyway, Obi-Wan is then able to continue to counsel Luke through the force. This is part of the victory of the light side of the force other than the obvious one of Darth Vader being brought back to his good side. The fact that the two remaining Jedi were able to learn new ways of using the force brought the balance back to the whole. If you look at it the other way - the light gaining the power - the force would then be out of whack again because it was unbalanced. At the end of RotJ, Anakin has known both sides of the force - he has slaughtered innocents and he has saved innocents, he has hated and he has loved, he has been hated and he has been loved, he has been enraged and he has been joyously happy; and Anakin accepts himself with the light and the dark both equal, neither gaining power over the other, even if it cost him his life. As Vader dies in Luke's arms, according to the book, many thoughts are going on in Vader's mind - "The boy was good, and the boy had come from him [Vader]- so there must have been good in him [Vader], too. He smiled up again at his son, and for the first time, loved him. And for the first time in many long years, loved himself again as well." Vader/Anakin then goes on to experience some of the smells and sounds of the Second Death Star imploding around them, but perceives them as wonderful, springlike smells and sounds of thundershowers - I think this was an illustration of how the dark side (explosions and destruction and danger) can be turned into the light side (spring time allusions with the obvious new-life connotations) and that Anakin was able to do this before he died. We don't see if Anakin's body disappears like that of Obi-Wan and Yoda (either in the book or in the movie), but he does join them in the Ewok celebration scene. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda left their clothes behind, which means that Anakin would have left his Darth Vader suit behind. Anyway, this whole new training with QuiGon was introduced in the PM (especially in the book) where it was made very clear that QuiGon was not your average Jedi - he made relationships with and showed compassion for (According to the traditional Jedi ways, a Jedi was supposed to be serene and not let silly emotions like fear and love rule one's actions - showing Obi-Wans complete turn-about-face when he trains Luke to "search his feelings" or "trust his feelings" )various creatures - something the Jedi were not supposed to do. A young Obi-Wan was frustrated with his master as Qui-Gon added Jar-Jar Binks and then Padme and then Anakin (and even R2D2) to their little party. QuiGon also made things up on the spur of the moment (gambling their only means of transportation against a 9 year old's ability to win a race that he'd never finished before) and seemed to trust blindly to fate - something the Jedi discouraged. QuiGon also defied the Jedi councel to train Anakin. Yoda was miffed at him as well as Mace Windu and ObiWan, but QuiGon kept to his ideals and in the end, it was this creative way of using the force that Yoda accepted was better than the traditional Jedi ways. Yoda trained Luke in the new and improved ways of the Jedi and this was probably why his training was relatively short compared to the traditional Jedi ways. Luke already was so strong in the force that he could use it as needed with only a little training and, more importantly, self-confidence. QuiGon's method was simple as he tells Yoda in Revenge of the Sith that eternal life was "the ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never acheive it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exultation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness." Yoda simply taught Luke this along with physical training and meditation, instead of the rigorous Jedi training. GL wrote the whole story long before any of us even saw the fouth segment of it, so all the stories are connected well with a few, small exceptions. GL saw the entire story - Anakin rising, falling, and being restored, while most of us were only seeing Luke as the hero. It's an amazing story.
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Posted 22 April 2005 - 02:25 AM

QUOTE (Johnny Utah @ Apr 22 2005, 02:10 AM)
GL wrote the whole story long before any of us even saw the fouth segment of it, so all the stories are connected well with a few, small exceptions.  GL saw the entire story - Anakin rising, falling, and being restored, while most of us were only seeing Luke as the hero.  It's an amazing story.


I've seen apologist essays before but this one takes the cake...

UTTER RUBBISH!!!!
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