[Helena]

If you're only reckoning is that of the past 100 years, you're talking about popular democracy in which every citizen has a franchise. But the election of monarchy were often done through aristocratic democracy. The people elected the king. I.e. the people who thought they were the people, not all the other human beings including slaves, lower classes, and foreigners. Hell the Athenians thought they were democratic, when in fact they were, by our standards, an elitist democracy. So it's all what you mean.

Athens was not a 'monarchy' as such during its democratic period; it had leaders known as 'archons' who often came from the ranks of the aristocracy, but they were not monarchs. And in any case, from the context of the film - talk of two-term limits, giving the people what they want etc. - it's quite obvious that Naboo's 'democracy' is a system very similar to that of the US. Therefore Amidala is not a monarch but a President - period. Stop trying to tell me that it makes sense to call her a Queen, because I'm simply not prepared to accept it - you have a better chance of convincing me that Jar Jar is a deep and well-developed character who provides effective comic relief.

[Lord Aquaman]

Does Jar Jar play Dick Cheney to Amidala's Bush Jr?

[Paladin]

Personally, I'm confused as to why the hell GL wanted Naboo, anyway. Wouldn't Alderaan have made a better place than Naboo?

[CowboyCurtis]

Sadly, I know his reasoning. He didn't want to invest all this time and effort in the characters saving this world (Alderaan), and the audience falling in love with it, only to have it blown up in one of the following movies.

Again, a moviemaker who doesn't give his audience some credit for brains.

If we had fallen in love with Alderaan, then its destruction would have all the more meaning.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 12 April 2005 - 10:12 AM

[Signum_Absentis]

If we had fallen in love with Alderaan, then its destruction would have all the more meaning.

Ever since the Radio Dramas, in which the beginning takes place on Alderaan, I always did want to see Alderaan...and we will never get to see it. This would have been a tremedous idea to have Alderaan be the place, and later have it blown up, it would have made more sense. Now I guess we are to merely shrug as the guy from NYPD Blue is blown up in a new hope offscreen. This is just stupid, maybe Lucas will add new scenes to a New Hope involving Jimmy Smitts dying in a cloud of smoke and flames....screaming "ANAKIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Mnesymone]

But the thing with having everything happen around Naboo so that no one falls in love with the setting of the prequels only to see it destroyed... NO ONE IS FALLING IN LOVE WITH NABOO...
also - it makes Alderaan feel more irrelevant.

[njamilla]

Athens was not a 'monarchy' as such during its democratic period; it had leaders known as 'archons' who often came from the ranks of the aristocracy, but they were not monarchs.

I didn't claim Athens was a monarchy. I said by our standards it was an aristocratic democracy.


And in any case, from the context of the film - talk of two-term limits, giving the people what they want etc. - it's quite obvious that Naboo's 'democracy' is a system very similar to that of the US. Therefore Amidala is not a monarch but a President - period.

But it's not a presidency. It's a monarchy!


Stop trying to tell me that it makes sense to call her a Queen, because I'm simply not prepared to accept it - you have a better chance of convincing me that Jar Jar is a deep and well-developed character who provides effective comic relief.

I'm not trying to make sense of it, but putting it into historical perspective. I'm not trying to tell you anything. I'm trying to convince you that you can call the leader of any country, democracy or otherwise, what ever your want. And you can chose ("elect") that person that person in any number of democratic ways. Democracy can be limited, universal, elitist, or representative. Is the American president elected by less a democracy because it uses an electoral college than the French president in which votes are cast directly for a particular candidate?

[Helena]

But it's not a presidency. It's a monarchy!

No it isn't. If you don't believe me, perhaps you'd like to refer to the definition of 'monarch' at dictionary.com:

mon·arch   
n.
One who reigns over a state or territory, usually for life and by hereditary right, especially:
A sole and absolute ruler.
A sovereign, such as a king or empress, often with constitutionally limited authority: a constitutional monarch. 

Amidala is not a Queen. Elle n'est pas une reine. Sie ist keine Königin. She. Is. Not. A. Queen. Full. Stop.

I'm not trying to make sense of it, but putting it into historical perspective. I'm not trying to tell you anything. I'm trying to convince you that you can call the leader of any country, democracy or otherwise, what ever your want. And you can chose ("elect") that person that person in any number of democratic ways. Democracy can be limited, universal, elitist, or representative. Is the American president elected by less a democracy because it uses an electoral college than the French president in which votes are cast directly for a particular candidate?

If this were a debate on the exact definition of 'democracy' I would actually be inclined to answer 'yes' to your last question, but all this is beside the point. If a leader is elected elected through free, competitive elections under universal or near-universal sufferage, and heredity plays no part in the succession - which is clearly the case on Naboo, even though it's never explicitly stated - she is not a monarch.

You talk about the historical perspective, but I challenge you to give me one example of a truly elected leader - elected as defined above, not just picked from one aristocratic family or another by a handful of nobles - who has ever been referred to as a 'monarch'. This has never ever happened, and there's a simple reason for this: there is simply no way that the definition of the word 'monarch' can be stretched far enough to include someone who is essentially a President. Yes, technically you can call your President a 'King' or 'Queen' if you want to, but why on earth would you choose to give the office such a misleading title?

[Paladin]

Yes, technically you can call your President a 'King' or 'Queen' if you want to, but why on earth would you choose to give the office such a misleading title?

That's not all. Why would anyone want to refer to a president as 'your royal highness' or something similiar to that. Most presidents and elected leaders are refered to as similarly honorable, but not so exaggerated ways, such as 'Mr. President' or 'Your honor' or something similiar to that.

Further more, I have this tiny little thing to bring up... what happens if the said 'queen' gets married and has children while still in office? Would they be refered to as princes and princesses?

To take this even further, many countries generally have privilages for ex-heads of state. For example, in the US, an ex-president is still entitled to a full compliment of bodyguards and security for the rest of his life, AND he's given a huge salary for no work on his part -- if I'm not mistaken.

Other countries have similiar systems... so I want to know this... what kind of stuff does Naboo have? Aparently, we see Padme having this nice house in the middle of nowhere, and recieving a little bodyguard protection (this whole 'decoy' stuff is occasionally weird, despite its usage in real life). And for some reason, I don't think they have anything near what they have in real life ex-heads of state.

What's more is, regarding Nute Gunray (retarded name, BTW) would somehow wait for TEN YEARS before attempting to kill Padme in revenge for his failure to legally occupy Naboo in TPM. Forgive me for saying this, but I think that the whole motive behind this is pretty damn stupid... but then again, many big nad powerful leaders tend to do retarded things every now and then.

[CowboyCurtis]

Great points, Helena! Great points, Paladin!

But the thing with having everything happen around Naboo so that no one falls in love with the setting of the prequels only to see it destroyed... NO ONE IS FALLING IN LOVE WITH NABOO...
also - it makes Alderaan feel more irrelevant.

Very good! Very good! This is why I feel the design of Naboo is partly faulty. "Italy in Space" doesn't work for me. I'd rather have seen the McQuarrie sketches of Alderaan. It's still elegant, but spacey at the same time.

Lucas is an idiot. I don't care if I bash him. He's an idiot. He's lost it all.