[ernesttomlinson]

King Haakon VII of Norway who reigned during WWII and (in exile) during the Nazi occupation. The constitution limited his powers - he wasn't quite a figurehead but still the Norwegian Parliament had the final say. From what little I've read him he seems to have been an admirable, honourable man - he refused to cave to the Germans' demands in 1940 to end resistance and appoint Vidkun Quisling to the premiership, and thus won over the wavering civilian government - and steadfast in his support of representative government.

I mention this only as an answer to the understandable scepticism of Amidala's being elected queen of Naboo. It has happened at least once before. Possibly Lucas had Haakon VII in mind but somehow I doubt it.

[Mnesymone]

I'm not sure about it but I think Malaysia has or had elected monarchs on five-year terms...

I think the beef about the elected monarchs isn't the fact that they exist - at least for me - but that they are inexperienced 14-year old girls - the only kind of queen that a 14-year old girl should be elected to be would have a name like May Queen or some festival thing...

Also the "amend the constitution" "two terms" crap - why didn't they just call her the Royal Presidentress of the United States of Naboo...

[ernesttomlinson]

You're right there about the 14-year-old queen nonsense. It's straight out of stories about teenaged monarchs dominated by corrupt regents but who turn out to be smarter and more resourceful than anyone expected. (e.g. Prince Caspian) But that sort of story works only with strictly hereditary monarchies.

My guess is that Lucas made these lame attempts to make his child-kingdom seem democratic because he was afraid that if he gave us an out-and-out aristocracy then his viewers wouldn't have accepted it. I think they would have, though. Everyone accepts that "high fantasy" and even much science fiction (e.g. A Mote in God's Eye, lots of Bujold, and many others) is aristocratic. This may give David Brin fits but Brin is a jealous mediocrity so that's not important. It's part of the game. Leia is a princess, no questions asked. Lucas didn't have to do what he did.

(Edit to correct bad grammar.)

This post has been edited by ernesttomlinson: 10 April 2005 - 10:55 PM

[Mnesymone]

Is the bastard... I mean Lucas - going to say that Leia was elected princess in Sith?

If he does, I will curse him with the mightiest curse I can muster - I curse his fridge to be too cold in patches and too warm in other bits - so all his drinks are frozen and his meat spoils...

Not much of a curse but it'll do...

[Helena]

He wasn't really 'elected' as such - it was more like a referendum. Basically what happened was that Norway changed its constitution and offered the throne to Prince Carl of Denmark, after which the new constitution was sanctioned by a plebiscite. After that things went back to normal and the throne was passed down to his son when he died.

Amidala's position is totally different. She's a genuine elected leader, chosen by competitive election and acting as head of government as well as head of state. Naboo's system of government is actually a Presidency, as opposed to Norway, which is a constitutional monarchy governed by a Prime Minister.

But of course, none of this makes any difference to Lucas...

[JW Wells]

Going a little further back, Poland (I think) had elected monarchs for centuries, and I know that the Holy Roman Emperor was elected by seven or eight specified nobles - both were positions of real power, not just figurehead slots. Alexander the Great was even (kinda, sorta) 'elected' by acclaim of the Macedonian nobility.

That said, the two-term limit stuff indicates Lucas was looking no further than his own country's system for 'inspiration'.

[Helena]

There are a few instances of monarchs being chosen by a group of nobles and the like, but these 'elections' would be limited to a handful of people and would almost invariably involve some relative of the previous monarch (except in cases where, for example, one royal family was overthrown by another). There simply never has been a case where a monarch was chosen by popular vote in a competitive election, because that would defeat the entire purpose of a monarchy - it's supposed to be a hereditary position, not an elected one.

This post has been edited by Helena: 11 April 2005 - 09:36 AM

[civilian_number_two]

The bottom line is these folks are not speaking English, and this tale from this other galaxy has been translated for us by the filmmakers. "Princess" and "Queen," we are to trust, are the closest terms for what these chatacters are. Yet, when I look at them, they behave like an Ambassador and a President ... so poo-poo, Lucas: you changed your mind halfway through, which is unforgiveable. It's ok to regret an early writing choice late in a series; I'm sure many writers do this. It is forbidden ever to do anything about it.

[Despondent]

Meh, she had to be a queen so's her daughter could be a verified Princess. Of some sort, anyway. That's all that matters.

Giving GL credit: It's hard to connect the dots when they're constantly erased, redrawn, whited-out and subject to change.


FSW

[ernesttomlinson]

Thanks for the greater detail on Haakon VII, Helena. It's nice to learn something new

[Sagacity]

Meh, she had to be a queen so's her daughter could be a verified Princess. Of some sort, anyway. That's all that matters.

Giving GL credit: It's hard to connect the dots when they're constantly erased, redrawn, whited-out and subject to change.
FSW

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Getting royal status from an elected monarch who does not carry her royal status after her term is over? Not likely. Nobody after AOTC refers to Amidala as "Your Highness" (which is only used to address princes and princesses ). When Edward VIII abdicated in England, he still kept his royal status, which could never be taken away from him, even by an act of Parliament.

This post has been edited by Sagacity: 11 April 2005 - 01:19 PM

[Mnesymone]

Even when there is an elected monarch I don't believe there have been any/many democratically elected monarchs. The Holy Roman Emperors were chosen from a bunch of German and Oster dukes, princes and petty kings and were elected by the same bunch.

Though I still can't confirm the Malay elected kings...

Still, what kind of planet would elect a 14-year old to be their Head of State and Government.

[njamilla]

monarchy - it's supposed to be a hereditary position, not an elected one.

Technically, no. You're talking about a dynasty. The rules for any aristocratic ruling system develops its own rules which reflect the power of the individuals to impose their desires on the rules of the game.

A monarch could conceivabley be elected by constituents. It all depends what you mean by monarchy and what you mean by democracy.

If you're only reckoning is that of the past 100 years, you're talking about popular democracy in which every citizen has a franchise. But the election of monarchy were often done through aristocratic democracy. The people elected the king. I.e. the people who thought they were the people, not all the other human beings including slaves, lower classes, and foreigners. Hell the Athenians thought they were democratic, when in fact they were, by our standards, an elitist democracy. So it's all what you mean.

From a political science point of view -- titles are titles, rulers are rulers. Titles are names. Rulers are in charge. In international law, there is no difference if the ruler is the President of the US, the Sultan of Brunnei, the King of Saudi Arabia. They're all the one' who is in charge, without prejudice. How they get their position and how they exercise their power is a function of the particulars of a country.

So what if the Queen is elected. No one's ever explained what they meant by her election. She could have been approved by plebecite, by a ruling council, by an aristocracy. In all cases, a person could argue it's democratic. It's always fashionable for elites (usually aristocrats) to debate the merits of democratic life. But it's always democracy that they favored. The samurai in Japan favored democracy -- democracy of the samurai, not of the general population.

GL wanted a fairy tale. He also wanted democracy. He got the regal splendor as well as the social commentary on democratic processes. It ain't gov 101, but it works for the purpose of this story.

[Mnesymone]

He wanted both its true.

He got neither.

Just like his science/spiritualism midichlorians.

[njamilla]

but it works for the purpose of this story.

I didn't say it worked great!