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Is Star Wars Racist? Come on you pathetic life forms...

#1 User is offline   Hannibal Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 02:25 PM



The problem of STAR WARS RACISM hasn't gone away...

see this interesting and intelligently written article:

http://www.iridescen...er/starwars.htm

"What fascinates and worries me is that during the making of the film, it seems that George Lucas would ask designers to create the physical appearances of alien beings, based on his formulation of their character. As model supervisor Geoff Cambell says, "For any digital character you have to create an anatomy that fits the character"(21). For me, this hints worryingly at Victorian ideas of racial difference, with physical characteristics literally reflecting their "natural" psychology or personality. Do we still believe in this kind of classification of racial others? Something as seemingly innocuous and playful as creating characters for a fantasy film becomes something rather more sinister if this question is considered, especially considering that due to his appearance and voice, Watto the slave owner and junk dealer in Star Wars has been read as a Fagin-type Jew. "
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities."
~ Voltaire (1694-1778)


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#2 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 06:56 PM

No it's not racisit. I hate this whole racisit thing. I emailed the Vancouver City hall the other day and asked them if they had a problem with the Asian population here becoming the majority by 2017 (statistic), they told me "this city does not need more racisits"

WTF?

Is it racist to want to live in the majority?
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#3 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:51 PM

Jordan- Once again I am too stunned to comment... But in a short answer... YES!

Hannibal- If anyone is that worried about the myraid racial messages in Star Wars I have some practical advice:

Put a frickin table cloth over the tv and just listen to the dialogue. And yes, I think anyone who goes out of their way to find racial messages in Star Wars DESERVES to listen to the dialogue in the PT.

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#4 User is offline   rangwe Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:58 PM

Hannibal you scare me. Its a real talent you have for finding this stuff. Excellent article, by the way.

I think the idea that your reactions can reveal a racist bent and that the material may not be racist itself but carries racist proto-matter bears some thinking about.

I found the characters that displayed these behaviors uncomfortable to watch. The Jedi repulsed me for the reasons stated in the article. I have to admit I found the portrayals "racist" for lack of a better word. What does that say about me? What does it say about Lucas that they created characters with those characteristics?

Puzzling, captain.

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 11:10 PM

Ummm... Hannibal - I think you might be picking up stuff on your radar that just isn't there.

The thing of creating an anatomy for a digital character is a purely technical phenom.

You see, to make and exterior that moves convincingly it needs a detailed musculoskeletal model. They make a design, then make a digital skeleton that suits the design, then digital musculature, then they add a non-texture or non-character layer just to test the design of it - then they add the character or texture layer that makes them look the way they do.

Now I'm not saying the portrayals of Watto and the Trade Federation officials wasn't racist, but the technical aspects behind making them *N.B. - make them, not design them* are not driven by race bias.
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#6 User is offline   Xombie Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 01:10 AM

The character of Watto is probably the most troubling of the racial stereotypes disguised as aliens in the Star Wars movies.

1) His cartoonish appearance closely resembles the 30s Nazi caricature of the Jew frequently portrayed in such Nazi periodicals as Julius Streicher's Der Sturmer, right down to the flies buzzing around him. And is that supposed to be a yamuka oh his head?

2) His representation as a mosquitoish creature recalls a similar crude portrayal of the Jew as both a bloodsucker and parasite by the Nazis. Bloodsucking being both metaphoric in relation to their European role as moneylenders and literal in the recalling of older anti-semetic hysterias of Jews consuming the blood of Christian children for their rituals.

3) His literal slaves are two aryans: a mother (a virgin mother no less) and her fair haired young child who are held in debt to their slavemaster by a debt they cannot possibly hope to repay. Another common Nazi theme.

4 When Knights of the True Faith come to liberate the boy, their greedy captor is immune to the power of their faith just as the Jews, as the old saw went, had become blind to the truth of Christianity. But, of course, Watto will take money. But by setting the terms of how he will take the money (just like a moneychanger) he forces the knights (the upholders of right) to play by his rules (because the corrupt law is on his side.)

I could go on but won't. Up until Watto, my explanation of Star Wars' racism was just that the movies Lucas was calling on for his inspiration were similarly racist. There's an unthinking racism at work at making your whole damn first movie lilly white. And the movies Lucas grew up with were filled with childish racial stereotypes of various offensivenesses that were not given a second thought at the time. And I don't believe that Lucas is (knowingly) a Nazi sympathizer since the bad guys in his first trilogy are clearly patterned upon traditional Hollywood representations of the Nazi menace (Although, like the movie Nazi villains of the 30s, their villianry is devoid of any real ideology).

And yet there stands (or flies) Watto before us:a racial stereotype with no roots in the Hollywood films that Lucas turned to for his inspiration but deep deep roots in the anti-semetic culture of Nazi Germany and the neo-nazi fringe groups that have followed.

I honestly don't know what to make of it.
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#7 User is offline   Xombie Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 01:14 AM

And Jordan, the answer is, um, yeah pretty much.
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#8 User is offline   HK 47 Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 02:23 AM

A frikkin Star Wars alien is racist huh? This is nothing but a result of the politically correct hypersensitive training we've all had to endure for the past decade. Even thinking in a way that's opposed to the media hype might earn you the title "racist". I'm sick of this pathetic so-called "anti-racist" crusade. It's got nothing to do with racism. It's about controlling peoples political opinions by using sensitive issues as leverage. Control by fear basically. Even discussing the matter in the way I do now, has a good chance of earning you the stigmatized title. This bullshit is keeping people of different races apart, not bringing them closer together. Think about it, the only person who can ever be accused of this is a caucasian. No one has ever said anything about the Empire being racist against whites. They're horribly evil european white humans. "Ooooh, a bad stereotype. Racist! Racist!" I know, it's just as stupid a notion, but no one would ever comment on it.

You claim that "The Nemoidians are Asians" or "Watto is a Jew". Your line of thinking implies that people who see the movie are going to (consciously or subconsciously) dislike or even hate Jews more because of Watto? Or that people will start to distrust Asians because of the Trade Federation? Or we'll see The New Rise of the Teutonic Knights in our society??! Give me a break!

You make the connection by categorizing people in racial groups, I'll never get that. We're individuals, is it really that hard to understand?

I know, I'm feeding the fear mongering Troll who projects his troubled personal issues on this forum again, but this utter crap can't go uncontested.

This post has been edited by HK 47: 09 April 2005 - 02:37 AM

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#9 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 02:46 AM

Jordan- I did a bit of research into your city and found a vast Asian conspiracy actually, perhaps your ideas aren't so misinformed. Indeed, I regret to inform you that there are likely thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of images of a certain Asian all around your city, brainwashing unsuspecting people to his cause.

Everyone else- I believe I've already clearly stated that Star Wars PT is in fact all about Evita Peron. Really now, think about it.

Evita was a really good looking woman who shacked up with a military strong man. Sound familiar?

She helped him and his friends rise to power (in the PT Padme helps Palpatine gain power, who is a friend of Juan... I mean Anakin.)

Padme and Evita both have five letters? Coincidence?

Padme's husband does some very bad things, so does Evita's husband, but the public still love both of them.

Padme is a powerful woman- so was Evita.

Padme tours various planets during the PT, perhaps a reference to the Rainbow tour of Evita Peron.

Yoda is perhaps the holiest person in the SW universe, however he only talks kindly to Padme out of, seemingly, formality, much like the pope did when he met Evita.

Evita's death signalled the downfall and eventual death of her husband, so did Padme's.

Evita's body disappeared after the fall of her husband. We also never see Padme's remains during the OT.

Also Argentina has the same number of letters as Coruscant.

What could Lucas be trying to tell us? It's mysterious. It's also a conspiracy theory I pulled out my ass with about five minutes notice. If I wanted to go deeper I'm sure I could make a long article out of it and post it on the web, where Hannibal would invaritably cut and paste it, but ya know what I don't feel like wasting my time reading into something that is obviously not about anything but Star Wars.

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#10 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 03:10 AM

Yeah, I looked at Watto and thought "Chance cube? What the fuck? And he's some ugly flying... thing, that is immune to the force, but the Jedi have forgotten for some reason..." I don't think people are going to come up with this stuff unless they are looking for it.

Edit: And now my once a month excursion to the SW forums is complete, I journey back to my homeland! Good day to you, sirs and madams.

This post has been edited by Slade: 09 April 2005 - 03:11 AM

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#11 User is offline   Hannibal Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 05:15 AM

Unfortunately, painting me as the lone nut who comes up with this shit out of his ass is no longer going to work for you. It is a point of view. I have cited hundreds of articles, (there is also a book out now called Myth of the American Hero or something like that, links coming soon...which discusses at length the inherent FASCISM in Star Wars among other films)...my ideas are not off the wall as some pseudointellectuals on this board would have everyone believe.

Denial of the reality of racism feeds fascism...fascism leads to murder, which is rationalized usually in that the victims are either 'not human' or 'subhuman' or 'less than human.' This pertains to STAR WARS in a significant way. It is about the DEHUMANIZATION, utilizing social stereotypes and turning them into non-human entities, and therefore creating an "attitude." I have pointed out in the past how starwars.com describes the Neimodians as a "greedy race" and goes on to describe a non-existant "alien" race as inferior. This formatting of racism into followers of star wars is the danger to which, not only I, but even others on this very board have pointed out. Its a reality. I'm not making it up, and people are not seeing what isn't there. To see clearly an insult to others doesn't mean you are yourself part of the insult, that is rediculous. When I see somebody such as Hofmarn disrespect another's religion on this board through inference and casting of dispersions, I am not taking part in it by "seeing it" and pointing it out, and I am not going to stand by no matter what instance and let this shit fly. Fascists come into this forum, self-avowed, literally come and post anti-semitic statements, and NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE vwing, said a goddamn word about it...except me.

However, when other's vicious political perspectives are picked apart and shown disdain, all furor for the one who stands up to fascism.

Star Wars has racism in it. Inadvertant, involuntary, or unconsious who knows, but its there. The question is, why, and what could this mean to thousands, and millions of fans? How many subscribe to these ideas, and how do they resonate with them? Science fiction was used to promote Nazism in the 1930s, so it is not so inconcievable that STar Wars could be full of "underpinnings."

The fact is, the disagreement is not about whats there, and whether its there because some here are offended by the conspiracy theory, it is because it calls into question many of their personal interests. Many here have explained their love of fascist uniforms, their love of wargames, their love of certain romantic imagery and certain philosophers. Many people here, though they find it IMPOSSIBLE are flirting with fascism on a daily basis. You think its impossible for a liberal to come anywhere near the oily black leather stench of fascism, but as Dr.Lector pointed out himself, the left shares a lot of political ideas with Nazis. This does not mean liberals are nazis Hofmarn, it means that just as the Right Wing shares some ideas with them, so do you, and which ones, and how extremely are they on your platforms. How far is the disgust at Israeli fascist police tactics going to suck you into pure antisemitism? How far is the disgust at fundamentalist christian evangelism going to pull you into outright viscious antichristian apology for their destruction...

George Lucas was aparently a Methodist, his fascist philosophies are not fully stated, he may not see himself as a fascist at all, and his is hardly a German National Socialist, a "NAZI." However, he shares quite a few passions and obsessions that hardcore nazis, fascists, and antisemitics love. Facing facts seems hard for the people of this board, never anywhere in ANY of my posts has ANYONE EVER disputed any facts which I have presented. No such thing has ever taken place. Nothing but ridicule has ever taken place. Not even in the beginning.

The problems many of you have is not merely that I'm an asshole, but that you simply cannot look at the actions and behaviors of yourselves in any way, in regards to your PERSONAL INTERESTS. If your facists, then face it, admit it...ironically, when the real fascists showed up...

If you're not, you need to wake up see what is happening in the world. Forget turning to whatever political sides you have decided to choose to 'do the right thing'...liberals like Hofmarn thinking that going left means fighting those dirty fascist corporate bad guys, and the rightwingers, going against the evil leftwing fascists who would see Israel a burning cinder, and fight the heathen Muslim hordes. Your both right and both wrong, so your both fucked. The only way to fight fascism, and it is bigger now than it ever has been in the ENTIRE WORLD, worse than when HITLER WAS IN POWER...if you want to fight fascism, learn what it is, don't participate in it, and absolutely do not tolerate it. If you do tolerate it, then you are fucked as well as whatever country you live in.

Corporate fascism isn't based on hordes of skinheads running around with baseball bats, but it would certainly benifit, if its agenda was anything that could use them for...fascism isn't cut and dry, "hating jews" isn't the only or the main concern of fascists. Nazis were fascists but fascists aren't necessarily "Nazis."

Racists aren't necessarily nazis or fascists, but generally most fascists usually are, and nazis are completely.

The definitions here are complex, and therefore, seeing Star Wars and the many complexities of fascist idealogies in it is not as simple as stating "Lucas is a Nazi" (although its funny to say it in a joke). Star Wars isn't exactly Nazism, but there are so many componants of facism, that are almost identical to ideas that Heinrich Himmler specifically had. Is it coincidence? Is it unusual? Is it meaningless? What significance is there that the Jedi not only "resemble" Himmler's futuristic plan for the Third Reich they are identical to the Super SS Knights that he wanted to create for the Aryan Republic that would be guardians of peace and justice, and be chosen by blood tests, and trained from birth, and taught in the ways of supernatural forces and be 'warrior monks' patterned after the Knights Templar, who would work essentially for the goeverment, but be above it in a certain sense, and be titled, and accepted as Masters of spiritual and political power...No other GOVERNMENT in HISTORY ever LITERALLY worked to achieve this goal of a Jedi order that would act and operate EXACTLY as the Jedi would in the PT. Himmler's dream has come to the screen, it is EXACTLY as he had written about and talked about, and as shocking as that sounds, it is what it is. The Vatican had accepted the Order of the Knights Templar to be its "Army of God" to which they went off to fight the Crusades, but it didn't devise the Knights Templar. The Templars were essentially created out of Masonic Nobles who wished to conquor Jerusalem, and had mystical motives that eventually went against Church Doctrine. Even the Catholic Church hadn't designed such an order, and the Buddhist Shaolin monks were an evolution of circumstances...Himmler envisioned his Jedi knights exactly as Lucas envisioned his, only Himmler wanted them for real...who knows what Lucas wants, he made them children's heroes...

If you cant see the danger...than I direct you to inquire to Thrawn about the SS, and how you can learn more about them from him and his "Order." I am quite sure, if you aren't Jewish, he'll gladly "enlighten" you about the ways of the Jedi.
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities."
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#12 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 06:26 AM

"I have cited hundreds of articles, (there is also a book out now called Myth of the American Hero or something like that, links coming soon...which discusses at length the inherent FASCISM in Star Wars among other films)...my ideas are not off the wall as some pseudointellectuals on this board would have everyone believe."

I recall Yahtzee once cited an article about a chap who thought the moon didn't exist, but ya know what? He didn't post it on random forums and start swearing it was the truth. This is the internet, man, get used to it. Some of the things posted here are completely insane. Just the fact that one book is written about something and there are essays about it online dosnt mean that it's got any base in logical thought.

There's also the difference in presentation. For instance, most people here would have a conversation like this:

"The prequels are good films."

"No they're not."

"Yes they are, here are some reasons why."

"Ah, but I make a thoughtful rebuttle to your reasons."

However, with your conspiracy theories it seems to be more like:

"The prequels were produced by Heinrich Himmler and the Dalai Lama!"

"No they weren't."

"Yes they were, and if you think they weren't you're a nazi."

"No I'm not."

"Yes you are! Admit it! Admit it!"

QUOTE
When I see somebody such as Hofmarn disrespect another's religion on this board through inference and casting of dispersions, I am not taking part in it by "seeing it" and pointing it out, and I am not going to stand by no matter what instance and let this shit fly. Fascists come into this forum, self-avowed, literally come and post anti-semitic statements, and NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE vwing, said a goddamn word about it...except me.


And yet, oh great crusader against... something, when Jordan makes a (hopefully unintentional) racist statement, and then asks if its racist, you keep quite mum. Hmmm.

QUOTE
Star Wars has racism in it. Inadvertant, involuntary, or unconsious who knows, but its there. The question is, why, and what could this mean to thousands, and millions of fans?


Starwars has references to Evita Peron in it. Inadvertant, involuntary, or unconsious who knows, but its there. The question is why, and what could this mean to thousands, and millions of fans? Well I'll tell you. This is perfectly tragic. Millions of youngsters are going to start trying to mimic Madonna's lines from "Evita" and then marry military strongmen and take over small latin American countries. Then George Lucas' conquest of the world will be complete.

QUOTE
Many here have explained their love of fascist uniforms, their love of wargames, their love of certain romantic imagery and certain philosophers. Many people here, though they find it IMPOSSIBLE are flirting with fascism on a daily basis. You think its impossible for a liberal to come anywhere near the oily black leather stench of fascism


Fascism is SUPPOSED to be pretty. Sure, when you take the images in context they're ugly, but if it were not associated with nazism and were just an aesthetic choice, sure I think the iron cross looks super keen. If Hitler grew a rose and I thought it smelled good you'd probably call me a nazi gardener.

And as for the flirting with fascism comment Frauleine Ada and I are just friends, dammit!

QUOTE
How far is the disgust at Israeli fascist police tactics going to suck you into pure antisemitism?


Wow, theres an intelligent argument. "A Palestinian ghetto was firebombed. The guy who did it was a Jew. Therefore you're an antisemite and you're only mad cuz he was a Jew!" I suppose if I say that I dislike a ruling made by the city of Baltimore I'd be a racist since Baltimore is full of black people. And why stop there, I hate human rights abuses being comitted in Saudi Arabia so I suppose I hate Muslims as well.

QUOTE
outright viscious antichristian apology for their destruction


For who's destruction? Christians? There dosnt seem to be a lot of that going on. And how can you make a vicious antichristian apology?

"I hate you and your stupid religion viciously, but I'm sorry for doing so."

QUOTE
never anywhere in ANY of my posts has ANYONE EVER disputed any facts which I have presented


Also, you've never insulted anyone either!

QUOTE
The problems many of you have is not merely that I'm an asshole


No, I'm pretty sure it is.

QUOTE
but that you simply cannot look at the actions and behaviors of yourselves in any way, in regards to your PERSONAL INTERESTS. If your facists, then face it, admit it


Do you quite realize that yelling "ADMIT IT! ADMIT IT!" Is not a legitimate debate tactic? And what personal interests are those? We're not politicians receiving campaign contributions here. Or maybe we are and we just need to ADMIT IT! ADMIT IT!

QUOTE
if you want to fight fascism, learn what it is, don't participate in it, and absolutely do not tolerate it. If you do tolerate it, then you are fucked as well as whatever country you live in.


Fascism, is apparently Star Wars, and by posting insane conspiracy theories about it and doing nothing else, you keep America free and do what billions of dollars worth of military expenditure and homeland security budgeting cannot. However I tolerate Starwars, so I'm assuming that America is fucked, so how does that work? Do your powers of freedom cancel out my fascist oppression or what? Does Captain America know about all of this?

QUOTE
If you cant see the danger...than I direct you to inquire to Thrawn about the SS, and how you can learn more about them from him and his "Order." I am quite sure, if you aren't Jewish, he'll gladly "enlighten" you about the ways of the Jedi.


I only see the danger of another useless fascism argument. By the by, there is no more SS. Moreover, Thrawn has stated that whatever he believes in has nothing to do with Star Wars or the Jedi. Although I think it would be funny in a cartoonish sort of way. By the way, I don't have the time to edit the video just to mock you, but if you could dress the Starwars Kid in a kkk robe while he's trying to reenact the lightsaber duel from ep 1 that would be really hillariou... I mean it would be very damning evidence that starwars is all about fascism, and we would all have to ADMIT IT! ADMIT IT!

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 09 April 2005 - 06:34 AM

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#13 User is offline   Hannibal Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 12:58 PM

Once again your entire post is full of nothing but "inferences" Hoffy, and you forgot to point out the spelling errors, improper gerund usage and you forgot to count how many times I used the word "the," "and," "exactly" and "facist." You also failed to mention UFOs, Michael Jackson and Che Geuvera. By the way, what "debate?"
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities."
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#14 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 01:07 PM

It's not racist to want to live in a majority, if that's the case, then everybody is racist. Japan, China, Russia, Germany etc...

Why would you want to be the minority?

You're a liberal pansey, JM. It's people like you and the Vancouver office official who call everybody else a racist, simply for questioning or bringing something up about another race.


RACIST- a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Merriam Webster says I'm not one.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 09 April 2005 - 01:09 PM

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 06:04 PM

This argument is crazy. Folks are bending over backwards to defend Lucas, whose cowardly, conniving chinks attacked a planet of Rastafarian niggers, one of whom escaped to help the chosen one escape the money-grubbing Jew. It's obvious, it's on the surface, it's visible, and it's even there in the voice characterizations. I suppose if Jar Jar ate fried chicken and juggled watermelons, you'd all still bend over to defend TPM as "not portraying Earth in any way."

TPM leans on weird racial stereotypes all over the place, and doesn't much try to hide them. It's uncomfortable. I don't know what happenedd in the other movies, but come on kids.

As for Jordan: Vancouver right now is grounded in an outdoorsy, hiking/skiing/sports loving community. Since the 80s its Asian community has grown, and it has been evolving more toward a commercial, urban community. I don't know if this is a coincidence, but if I go hiking in Lynne Valley with my dog, I see white people. If I go to the dog parks, I may see some Asian folks, with their handbag-sized dogs, but mostly it's white people. If I go downtown, or to the mall, I will see a general mix of the community, with white folks and Asians alike prattling on into their cell phones and drinking coffee. Asian immigrants just don't seem to care about the outdoors (Oddly enough, however, Vancouver's most famous environentalist, and arguably one of Canada's most important citizens, is Japanese-Canadian). It is not racist, by the way, to make these honest observations. My prediction for Vancouver is that by the time Jordan is 50 the parks board will be tragically underfunded and the general feel of Vancouver will be significantly different. For the worse? That's opinion. I don't know what Jordan's motivation is for wanting fewer Asians in Vancouver, but if I start losing my parks and recreation, I will move somewhere else whose people value its unique location, nestled between the ocean and several mountains and miles and miles of ancient forest.

PS: Hannibal, once again your post is too long, and JM, once again you seem more motivated by the desire to disagree with Hannibal than by a desire to be right. Jordan is racist and Lucas is not? Come on!
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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