[Mnesymone]

I'm not sure if some people checked the sign on this forum.
Star Wars Fan Convention.
This thread - waxing lyrical with fire and brimstone and lone crusaders fighting under mighty banners and searching for undertones within Star Wars - is interesting.

I hope the air was cleared in that last fusillade.

As for Vancouver - 2017 is a fair way away, and given the fallibility of statistics - if you were worried about it, which is your call, then quit worrying.

But - if you go looking for trouble you'll be sure to find it. There is some weird racial thing going on in The Phantom Menace, Hannibal.
We agree with you. We've already agreed with you. You don't have to say it anymore - we know. We have taken your point, and you don't need to find any more evidence...
Your crusade is over, lone warrior - at least in these parts.

As for Padme being Evita - does that mean there will be an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical about her?

But Hannibal - your points from your long post about where does one become fascist - fascism as you put it - lies at all extremes of all points of view - even yours.

Have you ever read Aristotle?
Part of his philosophy is that of the Golden Mean.
Virtue lies in the midpoint of any given spectrum.
Courage between cowardice and recklessness and so forth.
Moderation - If i dislike the evangelists who come to my house, unwelcome, I ask them to leave as soon as I may. I don't gather my friends and burn their houses to the ground - this is an example of moderation.

I would ask you, and I believe it is a reasonable request, for you to practice moderation.

[Jordan]

TPM leans on weird racial stereotypes all over the place

I agree with that, but I don't think it was done with bad intentions.

---

Large Asian communities don't seem very clean or green. Also, I don't like the idea of being in a minority in my home town. It makes me uncomfortable.

A lot of my asian friends don't even seem Canadian. Most of them refer to white people as 'Canadian'.

I've dated a Korean before. Her family was very very korean. They only shopped at Asian stores, they bought imported newspaper from Korea, they even chewed imported GUM! And what's best, they did not like me cause I was white. That really pissed me off.

Their Asian community was just like them. Going to the family picnic with them, and all their firends, was like taking a trip to Korea. 2nd generation kids were learning Korean over english. I mean come on, immigration means adopt our customs!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 09 April 2005 - 07:39 PM

[J m HofMarN]

"It's not racist to want to live in a majority, if that's the case, then everybody is racist. Japan, China, Russia, Germany etc... "

Have you ANY clue where your bloody ancestors came from Jordan? Somewhere along the line YOUR folks were the immigrants, I guarantee it. And I'll also wager that one of your ancestors got the shit kicked out of them for being a foreigner. And let's not forget that America rightfully belongs to Native Americans. Which makes all of us immigrants.

"You're a liberal pansey, JM. It's people like you and the Vancouver office official who call everybody else a racist, simply for questioning or bringing something up about another race."

If it were an influx of white people you'd have no problem. You only have a problem because of their race. In what way is this NOT racist? And as for your letter to the city council, what do you expect them to do about it? Perhaps you'd like signs to be put up that say "Asians not wanted?" or "Help wanted, Asians need not apply"? There HAVE been signs like those put up before, regarding Irish, Chinese, Italians, and, just to make Hannibal feel good, Jews.

Why would you want to be the minority?

I'm already a minority. I'm a male, which means I'm a minority. I'm a communist, which means I'm a minority, I am not aligned with any religion, which makes me the minority. And ya know, it isn't really all that bad.

Large Asian communities don't seem very clean or green

Neither do large black communities. Neither does my bed room. Does the city focus on beautifying Asian areas? Do Asian immigrants have the funds and free time necessary to try to make their part of the city look better? Might there be economic reasons for this?

I've dated a Korean before. Her family was very very korean. They only shopped at Asian stores, they bought imported newspaper from Korea, they even chewed imported GUM!

For a moment, step out of the tiny reality you live in and consider other cultures and mind-sets. If you were to move Korea tomorrow would you immediately start devouring kimchi and frequenting Korean groceries where you could order items whose names you are unable to pronounce? Would you start hanging around people who's language you didn't speak well? No. You would try to keep in touch with an English speaking community. And by the way, don't YOU only shop in Canadian groceries? don't you only buy Canadian newspapers? Don't you only chew Canadian gum? Don't be so quick if they're not chomping at the bit to throw away their entire culture just to be like you. I do however feel sorry if they treated you badly for being white, but you have to realize they could well have an excuse to be suspicious, its perfectly possible that locals might have treated them bad, so don't be so quick to judge.

2nd generation kids were learning Korean over english. I mean come on, immigration means adopt our customs!

It's called preserving cultural identity. It is VERY hard to move to a country and realize that your child speaks the language there better than you do. And no, one does not have to adopt your customs just because they moved to your country. There's a certain amount that should be done in order to be compatible with the nation one moves to, but ceasing to speak the native tongue is not something that is doable.

And on to Civilian,

This argument is crazy. Folks are bending over backwards to defend Lucas, whose cowardly, conniving chinks attacked a planet of Rastafarian niggers, one of whom escaped to help the chosen one escape the money-grubbing Jew. It's obvious, it's on the surface, it's visible, and it's even there in the voice characterizations. I suppose if Jar Jar ate fried chicken and juggled watermelons, you'd all still bend over to defend TPM as "not portraying Earth in any way."

The message is, therefore "asians hate black people but a black person will one day redeem his race by helping to bring about the messiah who will blow up the asians and then turn evil and become black himself." I do not see any inferences from that at all. Now if all of the evil aliens were racial stereotypes that might make sense, but instead you have black people fighting on the side of white people, which is obviously an attempt at a message of OVERCOMING RACISM. Say, maybe that clearly stated message means something, or then again maybe a bunch of muddled and nonsensical conspiracy theories are more interesting.

JM, once again you seem more motivated by the desire to disagree with Hannibal than by a desire to be right.

I don't have any desire to disagree with Hannibal, and if I did then it wouldn't extend to you, so kindly explain what desire it is that causes me to disagree with your feeding fire to the furnaces of madness. Do you really believe Lucas is a racist? Consider his whole attitude of "fuck everyone who's name isn't George Lucas" if he hated Jews, Blacks or Hannibal than wouldn't he pop out of Skywalker ranch and declare it to the world?

[Just your average movie goer]

Hannibal - Stop talking about facism. This is a Star Wars forum. Let's keep things relevant.

JM - Stop inciting Hannibal.

Hannibal - Don't respond to JM's inciting.

Jordan - Don't demand people to cast away their identities when they move to another country. It's racist and inconsiderate. Try living in another country and see if you'd like to give up all your ways and never let your children learn English. It's also possible that your Korean ex-girlfriend's family didn't like you because you were a culturally insensitive prick to them. Lastly, if everyone in the world acted just like you, ate the same things you did, had the same hobbies etc... it'd be pretty boring.

Now stop this silly infighting and go back to lazily bitching about bad movies with your mates. Afterall, this is what this forum is for.

[J m HofMarN]

Well spoken on all counts. The arguing with Hannibal thing is a great deal of fun, but I shall try to avoid it when a topic deserves serious discussion. And yeah, I kind of thought of you when Jordan made his comments, since for you the roles were completely reveresed (except that you're not Canadian) in fact, there's probably some Korean version of Jordan on a Korean starwars forum making the exact same speech. Wow, it's kind of weird when you think about it.

[Galactic-Conquest]

[

If you cant see the danger...than I direct you to inquire to Thrawn about the SS, and how you can learn more about them from him and his "Order." I am quite sure, if you aren't Jewish, he'll gladly "enlighten" you about the ways of the Jedi.

Yes Thrawn please enlighten us on the foundations of this exquisite organisation.

[civilian_number_two]

JM: I couldn't wrap my head around some of your sentences, so I'm just going to let the TPM thing slide. You figure the caricatures weren't racist, that maybe there is even some unifying message of racial harmony there; I can't argue with that, even if I disagree. I think I could easily write a story right now that stereotyped the hell out of Jews and Black people and yellow-peril Chinese businessmen, and I'm sure you'd jump down my throat about it, even if I made all these caricatures the heroes. I'm just not George Lucas, see, and the story I'd write wouldn't be STAR WARS, so you'd feel it was safe. Apparently, something I have noticed in this forum, is that it is OK to go on and on about how Lucas lost his mind somewhere between JEDI and the prequels, and that the prequels are terrible and terribly written. However, take it too far, point out the creepy racial caricatures, and the general attitude is that people want to pretend these elements weren't there. They are scarcely discussed, frequently brushed off, and in a lot of cases denied. I guess in the end you really want to like TPM, so acknowledging that it suucks is one thing. Admitting that it might have been racist as well is too much. Anyway, I know you're unconvinced, so I'll let it go.

All the shit being dumped on Jordan: it is nearly impossible for people to move into Canada from Western Europe, without marrying in. It's even pretty hard for Americans to get citizenship. I know people who have tried. I also know a lot of first-generation Indian and Chinese citizens, and the process they went through to get into Canada was a joke. Immigration Canada is racist, like it or not. The rules seem to discriminate against white people. You want simple proof, the fact of the rise in immigration from the Far East - lately being called the Near West - ought to be enough. The question isn't "why would they do this?" but "why CAN they?" (HINT: Try suggesting that it's hard for Europeans to immigrate but easy for Asians, and see who gets called racist.)

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 10 April 2005 - 01:05 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

However, take it too far, point out the creepy racial caricatures, and the general attitude is that people want to pretend these elements weren't there. They are scarcely discussed, frequently brushed off, and in a lot of cases denied.

I don't think people are denying they're there (okay, maybe they are. I'm just going to assume this without spending ages reading through the archives).

I just thought that the general attitude is that people see these creepy racist caricatures, they know they're racist. People wonder whether they exist because of lazy writing or because Lucas himself is a racist.

The part where most people jump off the bandwagon though is the part where someone proposes the idea that Lucas has some kind of agenda in his films to establish the Fourth Reich.

They're shitty films. They may be racist. But I think the world can handle this threat.

Let's not try to make these movies seem more important than they really are.

[Patrynlore]

Hey all, long time lurker first time poster. Just wanted to comment on a thing or two. First, immigration Canada is not prejudiced against black, white or purple people. That would be illegal. They are prejudiced against poor people. It is easier for someone to come into Canada if they have a lot of money to invest by starting a business or whatever. Asia is a highly populated part of the world that has alot more wealthy people willing to immigrate to Canada than Europe or Africa. Once a citizen of Canada, one is Canadian, no matter where ones ancestors roamed, or the colour of one's skin. To suggest that this is worrisome is racist, but nothing uncommon. I think the problem with Vancouver is all the bloody homeless people there.

Was the Phantom Menace racist? Probably. I don't like to think about it because I still think of that one as the one with a decent lightsaber battle and a rememberance of some swful writing, acting, and editing. ANd merchandising. A whole lot of bad merchandising. FOrtunatly the movie was bad enough that no one up and joined the Klan a la Birth of a Nation.

Just my two cents.

[J m HofMarN]

Ummm ok. So you're now offended as well by the fact that the trade federation are greedy cowards who could pass as Asians. Riiiight...

Ok, this is stereotyping

Person 1: "My Jewish friend is tight with money and a coward."

Person 2: "Wow, you just brought up a stereotype about Jews."

In this instance it is person 1 being the racist and person 2 pointing it out.

This is also stereotyping.

Person 1: "My friend is tight with money and a coward."

Person 2: "That must be because your friend is a Jew"

However in the second instance you'll notice that person 2 brings up the stereotype and he is the one who is a racist.

Is it not possible that the SW designers were not in fact trying to reference Jews, but were trying to make a character who looked like the qualities he had? Consider Fagin (Oliver Twist) and Shylock (Merchant of Venice.) Both of these people exhibit qualities similiar to Watto and are very well known. So you consider Dickens' and Shakespeare's descriptions of them and you make a character with those features.

Is it possible that the writers were just looking for pop culture icons of greed and found Fagin and Shylock to be a good basis? Is it possible that they didn't take into accoutn the respective faiths of these two men at all? They sure as hell didn't take into account a lot of other things! When you try to put a face to greed it's likely that you might see Shylock or Fagin. This is not because they are Jews. It is because they are greedy. And if you're looking for racial stereotypes in films why not slander the blatant racism in the coming production of Merchant of Venice. This is a movie that actually DOES portray Jews as being greedy.

If you're looking for racial stereotypes you're going to find them. Just like I found several links to the life of Evita Peron. That seems just as plausible as the racism idea so why not discuss that?

[Jordan]

Both you guys are blowing this out of the water with your lame remarks. I think JM would make a great Vancouver politician.

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I have nothing more to add here. I thought Jar Jar reminded me of a gay Jamaican shaved donkey. If I was Jamaican, I'd get mad.

[Just your average movie goer]

I'd be careful about calling other people's posts lame remarks, Jordan. I didn't bother to read the first page of this thread and I'm not interested in doing so - but what you said in your previous post was pretty insensitive and inconsiderate.

It wasn't even particular racist - but you showed a complete lack of empathy with your ex-girlfriend's family that was shameful.

You've got to learn to understand people a little more, Jordan. Don't get mad at us. Learn something from this and try to broaden your thinking a little. It'd be good for you.

[barend]

Unfortunately, painting me as the lone nut who comes up with this shit out of his ass is no longer going to work for you. It is a point of view. I have cited hundreds of articles,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree... this theory is popular.

secondly yes, hannibal, you have cited hundreds of articles on this subject...
PLEASE CONFINE THEM TO A SINGLE THREAD!!!

we don't need to start the same conversation over each time you find an article on the same subject... grab one of your old threads next time and plan it in there... people will still read it.

can you do that please...?

[barend]

also to everyone else...

i don't agree with all of Jordans attitude, but try moving to france and start a family there that only speaks english and see what happens...

jordan isn't the most sensative person in the world, but everyone jumps on his ass when he says he's uncomfortable living around people who don't seem to like HIM for what HE is...

that's kind of fair enough i think.

[Just your average movie goer]

Jordan wasn't saying that the Korean community in Canada only spoke Korean. He was saying that they were teaching their children Korean, but bear in mind the children are still being raised in an English speaking social context - and are therefore learning English as well.

Jordan was getting pissed at them because he reckons that they should eradicate their children's heritage and not teach them to know the language of their grandparents.

And I suspect it was because of attitudes like this that Jordan's ex-girlfriends family didn't like him - not because he was white.