[rangwe]

Love, Imperial Style
The romance between Anakin and Padme is painful to watch. Its immediately obvious that there is no chemistry between the two, which only highlights their mismatched backgrounds - a worldly politician and an adolescent monk. The delivery of their lines comes out strained and emotionless, as though they were amateur actors in a B movie. Is this deliberate, in keeping with the title? Since its the soul of the plot, it should have come off with more tragic passion. A love affair, as understood by the basic rules of romance, is suffering! There are no conlficts to resolve, either between Padme's political career and her personal life, or between Anakin's ascetic life and his raging hormones. The relationship never achieves any kind of believability due to this lack of grief. Its got the stoicism of people going through the motions. Lifeless, like the rest of the movie, like the rest of the Empire.

We Don't Need Two Heroes
If disappointment has a name, its the climax at the end of the film. Obi Wan, after enduring countless hardships pursuing the identity of Padme's enemy, is defeated without any sense of accomplishment. Anakin, after experiencing the agony of a forbidden love affair, the grieving for his mother's death, and embarking on a murderous rampage whose consequences have not yet been fully realized, meets the same fate! There are no important revelations. There are no reckonings with the villain. There are no signs that our two heroes have suffered for anything at all. They have absolutely no impact on the plot - everything goes according to Palpatine's plan. He loses nothing crucial, nor does he experience any hardship as a result of the Heroes actions. Why are these two jedi in the movie at all then?

Jedi On The Rampage, Part Deux
The scene where Mace Windu lops off Jango's head says it all. The solution to anything and everything is to use violence and kill your opponents. In contrast, Boba's head resting against the helm of his father speaks for the humanity of people who have suffered a tragedy. Who do you relate more to? The way in which the jedi bunch together like a mob and let themselves be wiped out by droids speaks volumes about their ability to solve problems and use their intelligence. They have to be saved from their stupidity by an outside force. How could they have been so short-sighted? Once the Clone Cavalry takes over, I saw jedi disembarking from the rescue transports to re-enter the fray! Where is the restraint, the careful planning and the cleverness of the wise? Maybe the sight of the trade federation transport taking off and then crashing back to the ground was cool-looking, but I was horrified at the wholesale slaughter and glorification of death this supports. The jedi all come off as mindless killers to a knight. The villains, by contrast, resort to guile and restraint to get what they want. Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

The Politics Of Duncing
The ease at which the Republic is toyed with strikes me as the most disheartening part of this movie. All the failsafes that a developed, healthy political system ought to have appear vacant. Where are the mundane supporters of the Republic? Don't they have any spy agencies or action committees? Is the Chancellor completely immune to critics or media coverage? It isn't an Empire *yet*. How can one man manipulate so many people without opposition? He never seems the least bit worried that his plans will be discovered or vexed by anyone. He doesn't even show the slightest bit of stress that an important position would inlfict as a result of "the daily grind". From the Chancellor's galactic schemes to the problems of managing his office temps, his control over everyone is complete and total. By making the good guys and duped bad guys pushovers, the Chancellor's victories are all hollow, devoid of fear for or empathy with the citizenry (let alone the heroes). Why am I rooting for the Empire to hurry up and put the Republic out of its misery?

- rangwe

[Helena]

The Politics Of Duncing
The ease at which the Republic is toyed with strikes me as the most disheartening part of this movie.  All the failsafes that a developed, healthy political system ought to have appear vacant.  Where are the mundane supporters of the Republic?  Don't they have any spy agencies or action committees?  Is the Chancellor completely immune to critics or media coverage?  It isn't an Empire *yet*.  How can one man manipulate so many people without opposition?  He never seems  the least bit worried that his plans will be discovered or vexed by anyone.

Read my post in the TPM thread. I completely agree about 'putting the Republic out of its misery', by the way. It's the same with Anakin - rather than feeling grief at his 'descent' into the Dark Side, all I can think is 'why the hell did it take so long?'

[Hannibal]

"Jedi On The Rampage, Part Deux
The scene where Mace Windu lops off Jango's head says it all. The solution to anything and everything is to use violence and kill your opponent."

Yes...just what is the difference btween the rebels and the empire anyway?

"They have to be saved from their stupidity by an outside force. How could they have been so short-sighted? Once the Clone Cavalry takes over, "


Yes...in the mind of George Lucas, Fascists will save the day.

" Maybe the sight of the trade federation transport taking off and then crashing back to the ground was cool-looking, but I was horrified at the wholesale slaughter and glorification of death this supports. The jedi all come off as mindless killers to a knight. The villains, by contrast, resort to guile and restraint to get what they want. Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?"


Once again, I ask you to consider my theories...Star Wars is about shifting your mindset to a fascist one, slowly and through the use of imagery, mythology and various stereoypes and other emotional means. Attack of the Clones? They ended up being the good guys right? The jedi...master race...the clones...master race...the fascist starship troopers swing down from the sky to prevail and beat those damn dirty alien chinks and scheming jews into submission...what with their banking clans and asian robot-manufacturers...trying to take over...get my drift?

You fail to see the fascist propaganda that Star Wars is. Your shock and dismay is quite appropriate, but once you realize what you have been watching, you will begin to understand that not only is this shit you grew up with a horribly ugly nightmare, your world is also quite different than how you saw it before--this is what causes most on this board to choose denial rather than face the fact that Star Wars IS fascism. They might have to re-evaluate their entire belief system...and who the hell wants to do that?

[Casual Fan]

This was a coherent and well argued post by Hannibal.

Has George Lucas given any hints, in his writings, interviews, or non-Star Wars movies, that he is a fascist? Or is he making things up as he goes along, using cool imagery as it becomes available, and since German and Italian fascist propeganda relied heavily on cool imagery some overtones appear in the movies?

[ernesttomlinson]

Where is the restraint, the careful planning and the cleverness of the wise?

Hell, did anything in that final battle make sense? All I remember was a lot of disorder and Jedi knights charging into the melee, lightsabres ablaze, without any sense of order or discipline at all.

The only objection I have to your first point, rangwe, is that Amidala does not in the least come across like a "worldly politician". She comes across like a teenaged ditz. Of course she and Anakin were meant for each other: they're equally immature.

[Paladin]

The only objection I have to your first point, rangwe, is that Amidala does not in the least come across like a "worldly politician". She comes across like a teenaged ditz. Of course she and Anakin were meant for each other: they're equally immature.

Tell me about it...

[JW Wells]

Hell, did anything in that final battle make sense?  All I remember was a lot of disorder and Jedi knights charging into the melee, lightsabres ablaze, without any sense of order or discipline at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember thinking that, far from being the unstoppable kung-fu warrior monks they were modeled after, the Jedi in the big AOTC smackdown seemed like they could be wiped out by a reasonably competent 21st century infantry battalion.

[azerty]

Attack of the clones is so horifically bad it isn't even worth discussing. Who is left out there that needs to be convinced of anything having to do with this movie? It is boring, illogical, badly filmed, badly acted, badly scripted, bad special effects, too long, contrived, and I have already spent more than 60 seconds writing this crap

[Despondent]

Hell, did anything in that final battle make sense?  All I remember was a lot of disorder and Jedi knights charging into the melee, lightsabres ablaze, without any sense of order or discipline at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah. With the epic battle of Naboo it was easy to follow: Good guys marching from left to right, Bad guys vice-versa. Into a totally penetrable force field.

If there could be anything AOTC did well, it's that by the end we were as tired as the "heroes" projected upon us must have felt. And probably as disgusted as the actors themselves.

[rangwe]

No, hannibal, I do *get it*. But, as you say, I really have a hard time letting it sink in. Maybe not denial, so much as.....horror. Can this really be what is motivating Lucas? It goes beyond Michael Jackson. I'm staring at my life clock and saying, "This isn't the truth...this is a lie!"

- rangwe

[rangwe]

Ernest, you're absolutely right. Amidala isn't a worldy politician by any stretch of the imagination. I'm giving the characters the benefit of the doubt as to the roles they *ought* to be playing, given most reasonable observation.

She should be on the development of Newt Gingrich or TomDeLay...secrets within from selling your ass to get the money to campaign. Heck, the Royal Family in England is a deep hive of intrigue...

...None of which comes across in Amidala's performance. Is she robbing the cradle? Trying to seduce Anakin? Politicians with underground sex lives take crazy risks, but I get exactly what you say it is - teenage immaturity - presumably aimed at the demographic.

Pathetic.

- rangwe

[rangwe]

Yeah, JW, that's what bothers me. Any normal earth infantry battalion would have wiped those guys out. The jedi aren't front line material, they're special forces. It just shows how stupid the setup is. Its a boggle.

- rangwe

[Paladin]

Love, Imperial Style
The romance between Anakin and Padme is painful to watch. Its immediately obvious that there is no chemistry between the two, which only highlights their mismatched backgrounds - a worldly politician and an adolescent monk. The delivery of their lines comes out strained and emotionless, as though they were amateur actors in a B movie. Is this deliberate, in keeping with the title? Since its the soul of the plot, it should have come off with more tragic passion. A love affair, as understood by the basic rules of romance, is suffering! There are no conlficts to resolve, either between Padme's political career and her personal life, or between Anakin's ascetic life and his raging hormones. The relationship never achieves any kind of believability due to this lack of grief. Its got the stoicism of people going through the motions. Lifeless, like the rest of the movie, like the rest of the Empire.

Not only is the acting of those 'romance' scenes pretty stupid, the music that accompanied their running and laughing was annoying beyond belief! Honestly, their romance looks like it was written by someone who's idea of what love is is stemmed from watching kids shows and other childish cartoons. But even those kids shows are better... the romance in the Lion King and Lion King 2 was pretty damn good by comparsion to this tripe!

We Don't Need Two Heroes
If disappointment has a name, its the climax at the end of the film. Obi Wan, after enduring countless hardships pursuing the identity of Padme's enemy, is defeated without any sense of accomplishment. Anakin, after experiencing the agony of a forbidden love affair, the grieving for his mother's death, and embarking on a murderous rampage whose consequences have not yet been fully realized, meets the same fate! There are no important revelations. There are no reckonings with the villain. There are no signs that our two heroes have suffered for anything at all. They have absolutely no impact on the plot - everything goes according to Palpatine's plan. He loses nothing crucial, nor does he experience any hardship as a result of the Heroes actions. Why are these two jedi in the movie at all then?

I actually felt a spark of sympathy for Anakin when you described what he went through in a nutshell, but I must actually say that hte whole 'plot' of AOTC was non-existant. The whole thing was a complete waste of time and special effects to supposidly 'wow' the audeniences. Sadly, the only people he atually wowed were a bunch of kids who don't give a nick for plot or character development, but only for action. At age 18 (when I watched the movie) I found it to be complete crap, and now at 21 my opinion has only gotten worse...

Jedi On The Rampage, Part Deux
The scene where Mace Windu lops off Jango's head says it all. The solution to anything and everything is to use violence and kill your opponents. In contrast, Boba's head resting against the helm of his father speaks for the humanity of people who have suffered a tragedy. Who do you relate more to? The way in which the jedi bunch together like a mob and let themselves be wiped out by droids speaks volumes about their ability to solve problems and use their intelligence. They have to be saved from their stupidity by an outside force. How could they have been so short-sighted? Once the Clone Cavalry takes over, I saw jedi disembarking from the rescue transports to re-enter the fray! Where is the restraint, the careful planning and the cleverness of the wise? Maybe the sight of the trade federation transport taking off and then crashing back to the ground was cool-looking, but I was horrified at the wholesale slaughter and glorification of death this supports. The jedi all come off as mindless killers to a knight. The villains, by contrast, resort to guile and restraint to get what they want. Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

Not only are the Jedi complete losers in a battle (which completely destroys their credibility as tough fighters and deadly military assets) they're all the stupidiest bunch of nitwits ever. It really makes you think if George Lucas really wants to destroy the Jedi or make them look like a bunch of incompeitent morons.

The Politics Of Duncing
The ease at which the Republic is toyed with strikes me as the most disheartening part of this movie. All the failsafes that a developed, healthy political system ought to have appear vacant. Where are the mundane supporters of the Republic? Don't they have any spy agencies or action committees? Is the Chancellor completely immune to critics or media coverage? It isn't an Empire *yet*. How can one man manipulate so many people without opposition? He never seems the least bit worried that his plans will be discovered or vexed by anyone. He doesn't even show the slightest bit of stress that an important position would inlfict as a result of "the daily grind". From the Chancellor's galactic schemes to the problems of managing his office temps, his control over everyone is complete and total. By making the good guys and duped bad guys pushovers, the Chancellor's victories are all hollow, devoid of fear for or empathy with the citizenry (let alone the heroes). Why am I rooting for the Empire to hurry up and put the Republic out of its misery?

I root for the Empire to come up, too, and like Helena, my only confusion at this whole issue is indeed why the hell did it come up anyway.

...None of which comes across in Amidala's performance. Is she robbing the cradle? Trying to seduce Anakin? Politicians with underground sex lives take crazy risks, but I get exactly what you say it is - teenage immaturity - presumably aimed at the demographic.

I was 18 years old when I watched AOTC, and if you're saying it aimed for guys like me, then all I can say about it is that it missed the mark completely. I might have participated in flame war before, but that was only because I was provoked into it, and as for sexual relationships... dude, don't even get me started on how prudent I was on that issue...

[Casual Fan]

After posts by Xombie and Civilian 2 elsewhere today, I'm pretty convinced that the fascist imagery that crops up again and again in TMP and AOTC is not coincidental. Lucas seems to have turned to his own personal Dark Side. I'm not convinced yet about the original trilogy, which you would think was made a different producer if you saw both and weren't told otherwise.

[Hannibal]

"Lucas seems to have turned to his own personal Dark Side."

This is concievable...perhaps...after all, what the hell was THX 1138 about? A training film of what not to do if you are chasing an enemy of the state?