[Jordan]

I've been saying this for years. The Force and Jedi are nothing more than high powered beings who live in a multi million dollar tower (best view on the planet!)

I was once under the impression that the Jedi were warrior monks, who devoted much time to studying the force and light sabre skill. They were an order of knights, who remained detached from the world, and only intervened to help those if the cause was noble.

I also thought that the force could be taught to any one willing to learn. And that Jedi Knight offspring would have the birth right of being a Jedi. I thought Luke being force sensitive more than others was merely a chracteristic he inherrted from his father. (my dad likes structures, so do I)

I thought everyone could use the force because of that scene in ANH (Just SW for civillian). When all the piolts were gathered for a mission debriefing, the commander concluded the meeting with "may the force be with you". None of them were Jedi.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 09 April 2005 - 07:57 PM

[rangwe]

@JW Wells:
"May the Oxygen be with you." I love it! That about sums it up for me. You make the Force objective, then what else can you say? It leads to statements like that as being absolutely true. "May the Force (of gravity) be with you" is impersonal. It sucks. Hope you don't mind if I use that, its hilarious!

@ Civnum2:
Uh, sorry about the ad-jackup. I almost didn't mention it, but I didn't know how else to phrase it. I'll be more careful, maybe some term everyone can understand as a substitute, like prOn.

I used fictional examples since I thought we were talking about making the two meet *in movies*. In terms of real life, it is impossible to use science to explain religious phenomena, since one is rational and the other is irrational. Or, to put it another way, religious phenomena is primarily "psychic" or of the psyche, where as science is concerned with objective experience, or nature. Otherwise, there would be a textbook in science class for Miracles 101. The closest you could come scientifically is to say "people hallucinated" or "the writers of the Bible made that shit up". That's a reasonable, rational explanation.

To say this dude put his hands on a blind person and made them see again by some kind of "magic" power is delusional (I.e., irrational). It cannot appear in a sane, reasonable world.

So, how do you explain quantum physics, where it appears that at the fundamental level of reality what you perceive (I.e., your consciousness) determines how matter acts? That level of science is only able to use "mystical" terms to describe what they are observing.

For all we know, when Jesus was alive, such things as "laying on of hands" was not only possible, but common. We don't know for sure because history is a consensual illusion. Really, how do you know there is a Japan if you haven't been there? Maybe you hallucinated it? Joseph Campbell raised these issues in the Moyers interview.

But, he also made the point that you have to make a distinction, as Carl Jung also points out, that the irrational and the rational are separate, but equally valid realities. To focus on one or the other (such as "I *am* God") is to short circuit your mind and to misunderstand what things signify.

Anyway, its a long topic for discussion. I'm sorry if I used fictional examples. That's what I thought was required. Going beyond that I couldn't give examples without looking up some books and formulating my arguments better.

Convuluted and creepy are basically good descriptions for the choice of midichlorines.

@Mnesymone:
Good point. If you can use the Force to detect it in someone else, why use a machine? Did Vader turn on his scanalyzer with a sample of Luke's blood in the Death Star trench and say, "Hrm, count if over 1000....the Force is strong with this one." Crumbs, somebody give me a barf bag. It never ends! The crappiness will never end, it will go on forever!

@Jordan:
Regarding the pilot gathering....exactly! It felt like a genuine blessing, not "may your count be high enough to access the force". Its so cheap it makes me want to puke!

- rangwe

[njamilla]

So for most of us here, the quantification of the Force through midi-chlorian counts takes the magic out of SW!

You should know that in the new Stover novel for ROTJ the justification for midi-chlorians (a tangible and scientific thing) {spoiler}is the reason why the Emperor is able to transform his old, decrepid face into a normal human face. The midi-chlorians are used to physically change his appearance.{spoiler}.

Similarly, the "living Force" is explained as what in our world a theologian would call {spoiler}the mystery of God, that ineffable presence of the spirit which guides us in our quest for completeness with the greater being {spoiler}. Obi explains it, and again it doesn't really seem to contribute to the story, except to give us an artificial "pay off" for earlier stuff.

The Cardinals, when they go to conclave, release themselves to the Spirit, one part of the trinity, which is not found in the Bible but is derived by the three part nature for the Christian godhead. Instead of campaigning to be pope, prayer and the offering of one's will to the task at hand will help the cardinal chose the proper pope. The old rules for conclave also permitted the Spirit by allowing the conclave to declare spontaneously the name of an individual if declared in unanimnity. Old JP II changed the rules of conclave and basically banned the Holy Spirit from the Sistine Chapel.

Every thoelogian knows the election of JP was a result of deliberate attempts by conservatives to elect one of their own. They got what they wanted and for the last ten years they've been hoping the impetus of their changes to the Church would stick. Now the conclave's got to decide what direction the Church will go -- righter (which is pretty difficult to do unless Razinger is elected -- that will NEVER happen) or really, how much further to the left. Razinger called JP "the Great" but I don't consider digging your heels deep "great." He certainly did not transform the Church as John XIII did.

Yes, I digress, but the point is that politics matter is spiritual matters. It is our nature. But when it comes to the pope, wouldn't it be pathetic for Catholics if the pope really were more holy than everyone else? How pathetic it would be if only the high count creatures of the universe were called to Jedi knighthood. That's why my favorite movie is Gattica, about a de-gene-erate (a genetically inferior person) who makes it to the stars.

[civilian_number_two]

Nick, it's GATTACA, not GATTICA. There's no "I" in genetics (actually there is an "i" in "genetics," but you know what I mean).

All that Pope talk is a little off-the-wall however: we all know how they choose the Pope: they fill a jar with pickled eggs, and whoever pulls out the one with the black dye is the next Pope.

[njamilla]

Nick, it's GATTACA, not GATTICA.  There's no "I" in genetics (actually there is an "i" in "genetics," but you know what I mean).

Thanks!

All that Pope talk is a little off-the-wall however: we all know how they choose the Pope: they fill a jar with pickled eggs, and whoever pulls out the one with the black dye is the next Pope.

Ha, ha!

The point I was trying to make (yes, I know it was a rant) was that "chosen ones" (whether in SW or in the real world) can (should) be any one -- you, me, the other person.

So the PT establishes an elitist Jedi Order. The OT discusses the return of the Jedi Order. Maybe the new Jedi Order (i.e. Episodes 7, 8, 9) should be based on the democratic tradition. Of course, GL says he isn't going to make that trilogy. We've all heard that one before.

[barend]

2.) They attempt to simultaneously explain the mystical through science YET in the same movie talk about "the chose one", their power to use the Force diminishing and Anakin's virgin birth... all things that CAN'T be explained by science.  While the chose one and the virgin birth would have been weak in any case, the introduction of this needless scientific explanation merely provides more continuity problems with this idea of midichlorians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah... who's actually writting all these prophesies? did the MCs in someones body confece to him that they would force the birth of a "chosen one" who they would convince to bring balance yadda yadda yadda?

the start of with something good, then veer of left and right at the same time...

if your going to put things down to science you can't have so much mystic crap...

if you're going to rent an underwater vessle from an underwater city to go through a river that goes through the planet core, then why bother having breathing apparatis when you swim there?

the lists go on and on... and it all unravells into such a mess...

[Despondent]

Who likes that?  The story of the boy who grew up to be all-powerful because he was born with just the right crap in his blood (and through no fault of his own) is not exactly a Horatio Alger tale.  It turns the story of a Jedi into that of some lucky idiot who was born with the right DNA.

Imagine a new Karate Kid prequel in which it is revealed that Daniel had some sort of high cell count in his blood that made him better than Johnny, who'd been training much longer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. And great post btw. Everybody deserves the right to prove themselves.

It gets the job done, that is Qui-Gonn can talk about Annakin's "high midichlorian count", but this renders the Force about as interesting as cellular biology.

Cellular biology is fascinating! Don't put it down by comparing it to something George Lucas came up with.

George Lucas came up with.

The "unintentional tenderness" between Qui-Gon and Shmi Skywalker probably came about because Liam Neeson and Pernilla August  were two good and unhappy actors stuck in a thankless production.

Good ones, Earnesttomlinson.

Jordan, right-on with the briefing. Another battle-tested old man say's MTFBWY and Earthlings think there's something spiritual there. Give it up, customers. It's a private club.

Maybe in the sequels, the force will be available to all. That way in the super-special New Media edition of JEDI, they can add a scene of The Curtain tearing in two.
You know, I never realized Luke's Simon of Cyrene moment leading Vader to the shuttle.

"May O2 be with YOU!"

[Mnesymone]

incidentally - if Anakin is prophesied to be the chosen one who will bring balance to the Force.

What is the imbalance being referred to?

What use do Jedi have for prophesies - aren't they themselves prophets?

Why is George such as tosser...
(*disregard previous transmission*)