[rangwe]

Ever since I started lurking on this board, I've been trying to formulate what it is about the prequels that is so unsatisfying as to turn me against them. The movies do show a great deal of promise and are considerably ambitious, with presumably the technical genius and financial independence to push the absolute limits (and force Holywood to follow the lead thereby established).

Specifically, these are the things that grate on my nerves in prequels. If they were removed or adjusted my enjoyment of the film would be improved, and I would be more inclined to give the movie a "thumbs up". In general, I think they reflect both poor decisions on the part of the writer and poor handling of the portrayal by the director.

Some ideas must have the proper time to "bake" in the mind of the individual. Feedback at the wrong time can crush the creativity process. But at some point the ideas must stand on their own and be "tasted" by another viewpoint. That too, is part of the creative process, because it acts as a balancing act. One can still choose to ignore the critical opinion, but they are doing so with the conscious awareness of the flaw(s). Thus, their decision is made (presumably) with more awareness. You have another layer of "completeness".

In my own life, this has proven time and again to be so. A word, an agreement, a snort of derision - all can have a huge impact on what comes forth. If you are truly open to criticism, you see through to that which you didn't notice before, *couldn't* notice before. Its a horrible thing to be humbled and realize you don't know it all, to turn on the defenses and try to clutch at your creation. The hero (or the artist) is the one who faces this horror and experiences it time and again, getting up again, and again to ask the question.

What is best?


***

The Phantom Menace

Everyone Hates A Clown
You know who I'm talking about. There's nothing worse than a really annoying person who doesn't get their comeuppance. Its quite an accomplishment to create a character that is so universally recognized and hated. In a different movie this would have been a stroke of brilliance. However, in this one, the character detracts from the seriousness of the story and prevents the audience from immersing themselves into the world. They don't know if they are watching a cartoon or a space opera. This obscures the other characters and drags otherwise strong scenes down, jarring one's experience of the story.

The Farce Is With Us
The explanation for the source of mystical power is a mistake. It sterilizes what was a source of subjective mysticism and ends up crushing imagination and wonder. By removing the spiritual for a scientific explanation, objective questions are raised that are never answered. Can you get an injection and be like the Jedi? Wouldn't everyone who could manage it become one? How have the jedi not become a corrupt ruling elite? Its a pandora's box to take this route, and ultimately unsatisfying because it is never taken seriously and explored logically.

New Kid On The Block
The child-savior is an unsympathetic character. He displays none of the traits of anyone raised as a slave, as reasonable people understand the word. He seems incredibly talented, resourceful, and unusually lucky without a single obvious flaw. In short, he is endlessly successful and therefore has no pathos. He shows none of the maturity or adult adaptations a child of his ability would require to be believable, and his reactions display a complete lack of wonder or even contemplation as he casually enters the realm of high politics. Since there's no threat to him, and he shows no concern over his adventure, why should we?

Jedi On The Rampage
Its disturbing to see that the Old Republic jedi so readily solve their problems using violence. They whip out their lightsabers at a moment's notice and casually attempt to coerce the minds of others with the reckless arrogance one expects of a slumming rakes. They show none of the maturity and clear-headedness of people who have spent most of their lives in discipline and self-reflection. Contrast the behavior of the jedi council with that of the Masters in the TV show Kung Fu. Are we really to believe that the jedi masters are this clueless or easy to dupe? They are the negotiators and keepers of the peace? Not only do they not inspire respect, but their decisions are just plain wrong.

- rangwe

[Lord Aquaman]

Good points all, rangwe. I look forward to parts two and three.

Everyone Hates A Clown
You know who I'm talking about.  There's nothing worse than a really annoying person who doesn't get their comeuppance.  Its quite an accomplishment to create a character that is so universally recognized and hated.  In a different movie this would have been a stroke of brilliance.  However, in this one, the character detracts from the seriousness of the story and prevents the audience from immersing themselves into the world.  They don't know if they are watching a cartoon or a space opera.  This obscures the other characters and drags otherwise strong scenes down, jarring one's experience of the story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "Clown" point reminds me of Robocop 2 (directed by Irvin Kershner, who gave us the masterpiece that is ESB, of all people). Robo 2 featured this obnoxiously bitchy ladder climber, played by Belinda Bauer, who kept manipulating people and just being a plain heartless tramp and you keep waiting for her to trampled by the killer cyborg she helps to create but instead she gets off the hook. Very frustrating indeed.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 06 April 2005 - 12:13 PM

[Hannibal]

Jedi On The Rampage
Its disturbing to see that the Old Republic jedi so readily solve their problems using violence. They whip out their lightsabers at a moment's notice and casually attempt to coerce the minds of others with the reckless arrogance one expects of a slumming rakes. They show none of the maturity and clear-headedness of people who have spent most of their lives in discipline and self-reflection. Contrast the behavior of the jedi council with that of the Masters in the TV show Kung Fu. Are we really to believe that the jedi masters are this clueless or easy to dupe? They are the negotiators and keepers of the peace?

Quite right, but, you fail to see that the Jedi are not Shaolin monks, or Franciscan monks for that matter, they're the freaking Freemasons on acid. I don't believe Lucas wants the Jedi to be anything but loyal servants of the government with a mystical bent(freemasonry)...

[Paladin]

Well said, Rangwe. I always wondered just what exactly were the Jedi doing trying to kill Nute Gunray immediately after he filled their room with poison gas. You would think they would stop to think "Hey, this is wrong, there's something seriouslly screwed up going on over here and we don't know what. But what the hell, if the Viceroy is trying to kill us, let's kill him immediately without having to worry about any repreccusions of it later on."

This is the stupidity of it all. Further more, let me bring up another point of Jedi stupidity and utter ignorance. Don't you think the Jedi would have reported the fact that the Viceroy tried to kill them? Not only that, but he destroyed their ship and murdered the crew without a second to spare. You can't do something like that to a diplomatic mission and expect to get away with it.

Further more, even if the Viceroy DID manage to kill the Jedi, how the hell is he going to explain what happened to them? I will not going to the utter stupidity of a planetary invasion and forcing the Queen to sign the treaty to make their invasion legal (!) but how are they going to explain all this? And if they do do it again elsewhere, wouldn't this tell people that they're up to no good?

And BTW, about Darth Maul. Since you said that 'everone hates a clown', then I need to say that you're right on the nose on that one. The guy who designed Darth Maul's appearance and character (assuming he can even be called a 'character') based him on Bozo the Clown. So he IS related to that guy!

New Kid On The Block
The child-savior is an unsympathetic character. He displays none of the traits of anyone raised as a slave, as reasonable people understand the word. He seems incredibly talented, resourceful, and unusually lucky without a single obvious flaw. In short, he is endlessly successful and therefore has no pathos. He shows none of the maturity or adult adaptations a child of his ability would require to be believable, and his reactions display a complete lack of wonder or even contemplation as he casually enters the realm of high politics. Since there's no threat to him, and he shows no concern over his adventure, why should we?

Damn right. You should also know that during the old days of slavery, especially in Ancient Greece and Rome, there were some slaves that really were very talented and skilled. Some of those slaves, like the ones who worked as doctors and tutors, were highly vlaued and VERY expensive. A slave skilled in medicene was worth 50 agricultural slaves in some point in Ancient Rome.

But those people were mostly adults and trained to do so by their owners who recognized their inherit intelligence. The main point behind it all is how the hell is a 9 year old child supposed to have all those skills? He actually managed to work for YEARS (remember, he's 9 years old) in completely secrecy from his master on building a fast, race winning race pod and actually is capable of doing a multitude of other takes at such a young age.

Personally, I can't buy any of that at all. It's simply too ridicules to believe.

Oh, BTW, welcome aboard!

[rangwe]

@Lord Aquaman: I didn't know Irvin was involved with RoboCop 2. That's an eye-opener. I did think it was pretty cheap that the powermongering babe just fell out of favor. I suppose the intimation was that "she would take the rap" for the fiasco of the demonstration. I thought the strongest villain was the kid, by far. A criminal openly making deals with the government? Cash in exchange for influence? Whoa, smart crooks, can't have any of that! That's what happens in real life! Throw in more blood and explosions...

@Hannibal: Bing! You are sharp as a tack today. You got me on that one. Talk about idealistic projections crushed under the heel of a fascist motion picture. Freemasons on acid describes it perfectly. Then it all makes sense. You can't have an independent band of do-gooders with a civilized outlook running around stopping evil, can you?

I assume you mean loyal to the government = loyal to the oligarchy that has bought out the Old Republic (Padme Hilton and her Naboo Hotel Chain of Camp Counselor Exploitation), a sort of "Old Guard" of rubes who think they are serving "the Eye of Reason" as represented by the lightsaber rather than the engineer's compass. And hey, lightsabers separate the wheat from the chaff of society, right? Its a tool of production (See also, scythe), not a weapon, eh?

@Paladin: I didn't know about the Bozo the Clown part. I think I might get a little ill, as its enough to make me break down and cry.

The slave info you presented is basically what the problem is all about. Anakin could still be a whiz and be believable, its just that the way Lucas presents him is along the same lines as Julia Robert's character in Pretty Woman. "Hey, its FUN to be a prostitute!" No no no, this is not an positivity orientation film for the newly dispossessed or sold into crushing poverty so Shme can pay for that visit to the Bacta Tank to treat that itch she picked up from Greedo's Pa.

I mean, Lucas could have paid a consultant to go film the slums of a place like Bombay, India for material. "Here Annie, I want you to look and act like the yucky faces you see in this video. Your motivation: Fear, for what might happen to you at any moment." Or even sit his fat rear end at his mega-man computer and do a brief Google Search for *something*.

- rangwe

[Paladin]

Rangwe, what you ask of George is not going to happen. Nothing he did ever made sense anyway.

If you want a good movie that shows slaves being mistreated and resent being mistreated, then watch Kirk Douglas's 1960 movie 'Spartacus'. I watched it a few months back and, despite its age, it was still a very powerful movie in every sense.

[CowboyCurtis]

Great points, Rangwe! (Wow, bashers have really been on a roll lately!)

This is the stupidity of it all. Further more, let me bring up another point of Jedi stupidity and utter ignorance. Don't you think the Jedi would have reported the fact that the Viceroy tried to kill them? Not only that, but he destroyed their ship and murdered the crew without a second to spare. You can't do something like that to a diplomatic mission and expect to get away with it.

Exactly! This is why it was ridiculous to have the "enemy" a part of the Republic. It should've been an exterior threaten---still orchestrated by the Sith---but a true and REAL threat (*ahem* like Mandalores). It should be an enemy that the Jedi (and Republic Forces) would have no qualms about going up against.

These are exactly the questions which go unanswered and open up what is wrong with the prequel "plots." None of the characters ever question anything in a REAL way.

[rangwe]

Heh, yeah CowboyCurtis, I have to agree with Paladin. Murdering the crew of a diplomatic ship and attempting to murder the negotiators is pretty much Galactic Political Suicide. If you follow it logically (which Lucas didn't). It lessens the believability of the republic (and my sympathy for it) for me.

Haven't ever seen Spartacus, Paladin. I'll put it in the Netflix queue now. I could use some old fashioned movie talent.

- rangwe

[J m HofMarN]

Speaking of the whole Blockade thing that seems to be a completely contrived plot device. Here's why.

1: There is a dispute about taxation of trade routes (never explained or brought to a close) and so the trade federation decides to blockade a random planet that (apparently) has NO part whatsoever in this dispute.

2: By blockading a planet they hope to do what? Make the republic end the dispute or something? How serious is this dispute, I thought it was just about taxes.

3: Palpatine somehow uses this to get elected to the senate. There is no logic in this. Just because there's an economic blockade on Cuba dosn't mean Fidel Castro gets to become the next secretary general of the UN.

4: Two FUCKING COMPLETELY RANDOM Jedi are chosen to solve this trade dispute. Yoda does not select Obi Wan because he's his old Padawan, Yoda does not send Qui Gon because he seems to have any confidence in him. In fact it is never discussed. It's just two random guys with no apparent qualifications except proficiency with lightsabers and quasi philosophical babble being sent to end a planetary blockade.

5: Why send Jedi instead of, ya know, ambassadors with some knowledge of what is going on?

6: Why did they have to go to the trade federation ship at all given the frequent use of holograms?

7: Why did the trade federation allow the Jedi onto their ship given the reputation of the Jedi?

8: Why do Jedi now have utility belts?

9: Blambabago!!!

[Mnesymone]

Incidentally, why were all the sabers in EP I weird, shiny plastic toy affairs rather than the nice steel ones we were used to - I mean, they even had big red buttons - and they were still sticking to blue and green for good guys, red for baddies - sure in ep II there were all colours of the rainbow - but why not plain white, or bad guys using orange or purple instead of I'm evil so I'll use red... It made the Jedi seem like tool-wielding tools.

But the Jedi going to the Trade Federation blockade to negotiate makes sense, though as to why they didn't also bring a gunship, a diplomat and a crew of marines is beyond me. And when they weren't back they just took themselves (and stupid Anakin - how was he supposed to do any good), they didn't bother to get a few more jedi, or a capital warship and a bunch of decent fighting fellows. And they wen't back to find Maul, not to stop the blockade. Maul's the least of their worries if a guy hanging from a fixture in a pipe can beat him.

[Paladin]

7: Why did the trade federation allow the Jedi onto their ship given the reputation of the Jedi?

They didn't know they were Jedi! In fact, they were pretty shocked to learn that they were Jedi when the droid told them they were.

Why do Jedi now have utility belts?

Dude, that's not even half of it! If they were on a diplomatic mission, why bring any equipment with them other than their weapns that all Jedi are apparently required to carry?

[Mnesymone]

Is it just me, or is making Obi-Wan Kenobi's desert wear out of Star Wars the universal Jedi gear kind of silly - sure, they should have robes of some humble variety, but that doesn't mean that they would all have the same stuff - a little variety in colour, cloth and layer, hooded and non-hooded - rather than a uniform - first of all it means that Ben who, in his own words "was once a Jedi Knight" is still wearing his uniform, despite being retired and the uniform being symbolic of people who were destroyed by the Emperor and his servants, second of all - it doesn't suit a good deal of environments, particularly a negotiation with decadent merchant warlords. As for the batman-style utility belts with scuba gear there's a perfectly logical explanation... they had some holiday time coming up and wanted to visit some nice reefs.
As for the Sith, I would have thought they would be armoured and masked, cued from the appearance beyond simple function of Vaders suit - When thinking of alternatives, I had thought the Sith should wear dark plate armour, masks or helmets, and ample and luxurious cowls or capes - thus conveying the impression of an evil, militant, and self-serving order in one neat package.

And Rangwe - with Everyone Hates a Clown - the entire race was clownish - from Jar Jar the Amphibious Rabbit, to the stupid boss with his comic relief head-shake and the army of amphibious rabbit-men hurling blue balls at unconvincing droid armies (maybe look at my older posts way back when for some good discussion on them).

[Helena]

Words cannot describe how idiotic the prequels make the Republic and the Jedi appear. Palpatine's stupid plan only works because everyone involved in both of these organisations seems to completely abandon common sense on every possible occasion. For starters, the Republic:

1) Has no army, meaning that the option of using or threatening military action - which would have solved the Trade Federation problem in five minutes flat - is not available to them.

2) Has no political procedure to handle a 'crisis' *snort* such as the Trade Federation blockade, thus allowing it to paralyse the entire Senate for weeks.

3) Sends two negotiators - one of whom is still an apprentice - to investigate the blockade, without backup or any means of keeping in touch with them.

4) Allows the TF representation in the Senate, and enough military forces to invade and occupy a planet.

5) Refuses to believe said invasion has taken place, despite eyewitness accounts from two Jedi and the planet's elected leader, plus a host of other evidence.

6) Allows the Supreme Chancellor to be kicked out of office over this non-crisis - even though the Senate's own stupid procedures are responsible for his lack of action.

7) Allows Nute Gunray to get away with an illegal trade blockade, invasion of a planet, various war crimes and the attempted murder of two diplomats, despite four trials and overwhelming evidence.

8) Lets someone like Jar Jar Binks act as a deputy senator in a crucial vote. Incidentally, a vote involving the creation of the army they should fucking well have had in the first place.

As for the Jedi, they:

1) Fail to realise that the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic is a Sith.

2) Carry on training someone who has not the slightest atom of maturity, self-control, responsibility or any of the other qualities that ought to be essential in a Jedi.

3) Allow this arrogant and conceited recruit to receive 'guidance' from a politician, without having any idea what this 'guidance' consists of.

4) Fail to spot Anakin's borderline-psychotic tendencies, even after he slaughters a whole village of people.

5) Happily take on a clone army which someone had created 'for the Jedi', without asking who would do this or why.

6) Allow the Chancellor to dictate appointments to the council which makes all the decisions regarding the Order.

7) Grant Anakin a seat on the Council, despite the 457 ways in which he is completely unqualified for it.

Given the quality of the decision-making on show in the PT, I can only conclude that the galaxy was almost certainly far better off under the Empire. Palpatine may be evil but at least he's not a complete and utter moron, which is more than can be said for anyone involved with the Republic. Incidentally, the Empire also seemed to have a miraculous effect on Anakin, transforming him into the relatively stable, mature and intelligent person he should have been in the Prequels.

[Paladin]

7) Allows Nute Gunray to get away with an illegal trade blockade, invasion of a planet, various war crimes and the attempted murder of two diplomats, despite four trials and overwhelming evidence.

Umm, Helena, the blockade in itself wasn't illegal, but everything else he did was. For the the life of me, however, I wonder just why the hell they would even allow a blockade to be legal in the first place.

Also, for the case of the TF having a presence in the senate... here's GL's 'explanation' behind the whole thing: He claimed that the TF is powerful and influential that they actual are represented in the TF because of this.

Sillyness R us, eh?

[Helena]

The fact that the Trade Federation is so powerful and influential is one of the main reasons why it should not have a seat in the Senate. Why does he think real-life democratic systems don't allow this? Powerful interest groups have enough of a disproportionate influence anyway without allowing them their own representatives, for heavens' sake.

As for the trade blockade, didn't the Queen say it was illegal? Maybe I'm imagining things. If it was legal, that's yet another thing to add to the list of stupidities.