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why does Yoda look so different?

#16 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 10:30 AM

Yes. Admiral Ackbar was great, wasn't he? a creature of respect and honor. and with a lot more depth of character and kindness than prequel yoda I'd wager. (but I wouldn't gamble with jedi, they cheat.)
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#17 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 10:37 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jan 13 2004, 03:36 AM)
5) It undermines the seriousness of the situation. The line was booed in the theatre I attended, and with good reason. Everyone felt cheated. Here was an opportunity for Ben to break down and admit that he was not perfect, and that Luke's unique situation overwhelmed him. Instead, he drops an old Stan Laurel line amd drags the thing down to the level of cheap comedy.

That is a very good point. I had never really considered that before. It would have been a much more powerful scene if Ben had simply admited to Luke that he lied because he just didn't know how to deal with the situation. That would have shown more of Ben's flaws, the same flaws that were unable to tame Anakin from turning to the dark side.

Guest, I agree. Admiral Akbar is an amazing character. I wish he'd been developed a little more in the movie.

civilian_number_two, I think I fall somewhere between you and Vwing on the subject of JEDI. While I agree it is the weakest of the three movies I don't think it is a total wash as the prequels are. I think TEMPLE OF DOOM is a worse member of the Indiana Jones franchise than JEDI is to the Star Wars one.

I was considering writing a "XX Reasons to Dislike Return of the Jedi" a while back but I never got around to it. Mosty I didn't do it because I read 50 Reasons Why Jedi Sucks in "The Unauthorized Star Wars Compendium". I figured that covered most of the reasons.
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#18 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 11:21 AM

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif x10
Chefelf, thanks for the link. I think our library has the original videotape. I'm finally going to pay my hefty fine.
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#19 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 04:29 PM

Yeah I read that a while ago, and what's funny is, I agree with almost alll of the reasons, because, like I said, JEDI isn't perfect. However, despite agreeing with the reasons, many of htem I don't see as big deals, and they don't take away from my enjoyment of the movie. It could have been one of the best movies of all time, instead it's just one of the best movies of the blockbuster era. Oh well. Again it's my opinion, but I really don't think you can say it sucks. The least of the three fine, but it certainly doesn't suck, and is well above average. Oh btw, Chefelf you said that the JEDI SE sucked. What changed in the SE besides the sarlaac and the end that made it sucked, cause I honestly don't remember anything. I thought that JEDI was the least harmed of the three SE's.
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Posted 13 January 2004 - 09:54 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Jan 13 2004, 10:37 AM)
civilian_number_two, I think I fall somewhere between you and Vwing on the subject of JEDI. While I agree it is the weakest of the three movies I don't think it is a total wash as the prequels are. I think TEMPLE OF DOOM is a worse member of the Indiana Jones franchise than JEDI is to the Star Wars one.

Well, TEMPLE OF DOOM is perhaps a lesser movie, but it has one strong factor working for it. It is a sequel (well, technically, a prequel, but ... shudder). JEDI is supposed to be a part of a series, which you have to acknowledge is a far different thing. So TEMPLE could suck, and then the next one could be ok, and neither RAIDERS nor CRUSADE are affected by the middle film's goofiness. TEMPLE is like one of the bad JAMES BOND movies. When they're bad, they're very very bad, but they don't have the effect of pulling the others down by association.

I have to admit, I haven't seen the OT in a long time, but I can still remember my favorite moments from the first two films. Especially EMPIRE. Pardon me if I think that the film where Han Solo accepted the strong possibilty of death to save Luke in the frozen night is far better than the one where we see a machine that tortures droids. "Then I'll see you in hell!" Han yells to the random guard who questions the option of heroism over personal safety. "I thought these things smelled bad on the outside!" is a nice comic touch to close up a touching and dramatic sequence. And damn, the fiilm's barely started. Then we get that fine losing battle with the Imperial army, a long despearate chase sequence through asteroids, Luke's faux-Zen training, a doomed lightsaber battle, a shocking revelation, and finally, loss.

Damn.

EMPIRE told such a strong story, definitely stronger than the genre usually enjoys, that JEDI just *had* to live up to it. And it does not. The space battle that everyone goes on about could have been epic and amazing; instead it was just a load of nice effects, while nobody cared much for its obvious outcome. Han Solo was reduced to a walking punchline, suddenly the Gimli of the Star Wars series. The best exchange of dialogue in the whole movie occurred when Han told Leia he loved her and she said "I know." Everyone laughed. Big payoff, until it dawns on you that a fine dramatic moment in EMPIRE has in JEDI has been reduced to a cheap gag. And even the least self-conscious STAR WARS fan cannot forgive Lucas for the Ewoks or for the death of Boba Fett, at least not without blushing.

There's not a lot I can say about JEDI that I liked, apart from the effects. It's a sloppy and ill-conceived follow-up to EMPIRE, smaller in scope than the previous two films (insofar as it explores no new territory), cheap on story (insofar as the big action scenes are the same as they were in the first film, an attack on the Death Star, a lightsaber duel, and a sneaky, comic assault on a shield generator/prison complex), and remarkably weak in resolution (it begins with a rebellion in ruins, yet with the explosion of the second Death Star, that's it fot the bad guys? Also: Darth Vader is forgiven and goes to Jedi heaven?)

That website you linked it great, and I can't add to it. Those are my complaints, plus some nit-picky details I hadn't thought of.

(Vwing:)
QUOTE
I thought that JEDI was the least harmed of the three SE's.


I think it was EMPIRE. Apart from Luke's stupid scream, I don't remember anything bothering me. I think EMPIRE is just the hardest film to ruin because the basic structure of good movie is already there. I'd have said the same of STAR WARS, but then they came up with the extra monsters in Mos Eisley and that horrible filler scene with Jabba.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#21 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 10:15 PM

I agree. Of the special editions, EMPIRE is certainly the least damaged movie. The things that are added mostly change nothing. A little more footage of the Wampa, a few more seconds of Vader returning to his ship, some extra approach to Cloud City along with more backdrops of the city in general. No big deal. The scream really hurt me deep down in my soul but as a whole EMPIRE's changes are a little less obtrusive than most other things he changed in the other two movies.

The scream still hurts me when I hear it. The first time I saw it I screamed along with Luke. "Nooooooooooooooo!"
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#22 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 10:55 PM

As I understand it, in the carbon-freezing scene, Harrison changed the line from "I love you, too" to the tension releasing "I know" as they were filming. As for all the Jedi yuk-yuks, I can't help but think "I am altering the script. Pray that I don't alter it further"

"Gimli" tongue.gif good one laddie

as for that moaning, tortured droid laugh.gif THIS is the finale to our six movie saga?
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Posted 14 January 2004 - 06:56 AM

QUOTE (Despondent @ Jan 13 2004, 10:55 PM)
As I understand it, in the carbon-freezing scene, Harrison changed the line from "I love you, too" to the tension releasing "I know" as they were filming.

This according to Irvin Kirshner:

"When I was shooting the scene, Han was suppoed to reply 'I love you too.' So we did a take, and I said, 'wait a minute, Harrison, I don't like the dialogue.' It's like she wins, she says it first, and 'I love you, too' is pretty weak stuff for Han Solo bcause he is too smart, too arrogant for that. So Harrison asked 'What do you want?' And I said, 'I don't know; we'll improvise.' ... and we tries it again and agan with different lines, and finally Harrison says, 'I give up, I don't know what the hell to say.' The crew is hating me by now; it's hot, we're way up high on this set, they're all hungry, it was a nightmare.' Finally Harrison says 'Let's do it one more time and that's it.' So she says 'I love you,' and he replies 'I know.' And it just came out of him, and I said 'Cut!' The assistant turns to me and says 'You're not going to use this, are you?' And I said, 'Why not? It's perfect.' When I cut the film, George looked at the scene and said 'In the script it was something like "I love you, too," wasn't it?' ... George was worried that the audience would laugh and that it would break the tension. I felt very strongly about this, and George said, 'All right, when we show the film the first time, we'll show it your way, and then we'll show it the way it was written.' So we sneak previewed the film in North Beach, and when the line came, the audience roared. George turns to me and says, 'You see, it's a mistake.' Now the picture is over, people start coming out, and they're all talking about the line, saying how great it was. They all noticed. So we kept it in the film."
[Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays; Del Rey, 1997]
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#24 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 10:44 AM

Star Wars needs Ivin Kirshner and Lawrence Kasdan right now. They tempered Lucas and made his good ideas into good movies. Lucas has always had good ideas, he just has idiotic execution.
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Posted 14 January 2004 - 11:21 AM

Irvin Kershner hasnt had the greatest of directing careers.
The only movies that stand out besides TESB are Robocop2 and that
weak James Bond movie.
That just shows that a mediocre director can helm starwars better than
the creator himself. Pretty embarrassing, George!
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Posted 14 January 2004 - 05:52 PM

I don't understand why all this ROTJ hating is going on. I thought the movie was great. Everything from the introduction of Luke as an established Jedi to the scenes on Endor and finally the powerful battle between father and son.

Muppets?

Why is this a bad thing? What would you rather have? The same old from the previous movies?

One of the main reasons why I enjoyed each of the old films is how they all experimented with new enviroments and ideas. The main theme was consistient through out all of them and at the same time each brought along new world with new experiences.
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#27 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 07:38 PM

Star Wars was a risky film, given its enormous budget and scale. It happened to appeal to most folks. who in turn bought books, tshirts, lightsabers, and finally, action figures

Empire was a safe bet. And wonderful as it introduced new characters, settings, and plotlines. but yes, more action figures.

I think a lot of people Who were More than satisfied Right There-

fans who had invested money, emotion and concern
felt sucker punched by Lucas after Jedi came out.

the day after it's release, two camps were set up. the people who say "aw, I thought the teddy bears were cute"
and those who felt Lucas was just pandering.
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Posted 15 January 2004 - 03:50 AM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Jan 14 2004, 05:52 PM)
One of the main reasons why I enjoyed each of the old films is how they all experimented with new enviroments and ideas. The main theme was consistient through out all of them and at the same time each brought along new world with new experiences.

The main thing that bugs me about JEDI, and I'm not kidding, is that I literally can't remember whether Han and Chewie confused an Imperial Stormtrooper by suddenly breaking into a game of patty-cake, and then surprised hum with a sudden punch that knocked him out cold.

JEDI is so much the trivial sort of movie were such a thing would not have appeared out of place, that I'm just not sure that didn't happen. But it's been a while since I sat down and watched that one.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#29 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 09:01 AM

I still don't quite get how it is possible to knock someone out wearing one of those helmets.
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#30 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 11:54 AM

Well, of course it would be quite difficult. But remember, Han wore a stormtropper helmet in Ep 4. So he probably discovered a weak spot and stored that info for later. perfectly plausable if you think about it. sleep.gif
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