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Non-NESTS in the forum which is "Non-Native English Speakers"

#16 User is offline   Chyld Icon

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 01:46 PM

I'd like to think I don't look down on EST people for speaking English (indeed, I'm usually thankful that I don't have to speak outside my mother tounge!), but if you need a good example, look to the French.

You go to France, try talking French, and whether you can barely ask for a pint (me), or have a degree in Modern Languages and a lifetime of speaking French for the sheer "fun" of it (my dad), if you appear to be English, they'll immediatly try speaking English, whether you want it or not.

By contrast, when we went to Barcelona over Easter, no one in our family could speak Catalan (Spain's new native language, for some odd reason) and my dad could only speak Spanish. But rather than being condesendingly going to English, the Spanish helped us pidgin our way through the language.

Personally, I blame too many moronic English/American people going abroad without the slightest idea about the local language, which (even though I'm mono-lingual) pisses me the hell off. Which is why I intend to learn even a tiny bit of Dutch before I visit in June.
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#17 User is offline   Moiraine Icon

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Post icon  Posted 08 April 2005 - 04:06 AM

QUOTE (Chyld @ Apr 7 2005, 08:46 PM)
... You go to France, try talking French, and whether you can barely ask for a pint (me), or have a degree in Modern Languages and a lifetime of speaking French for the sheer "fun" of it (my dad), if you appear to be English, they'll immediatly try speaking English, whether you want it or not. ...


Hahaha ! Now that is effing funny !!! biggrin.gif

Last summer I and family (hubbie and son) went camping and we met a pair of Dutch students and had a great evening talking. They told us the French are arrogant - we asked why - they replied because we Frenchies didn't have the courtesy of speaking English with foreigners ... And you are saying the exact opposite ! tongue.gif

So that's it : whatever we Frenchies do, we do wrong ! biggrin.gif

Bah, as an Australian friend keeps saying : "Ma français ne pas bon" ... tongue.gif
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#18 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 08:49 AM

Uh... Parles vous Frankase? Non? Jenese qua! Qua qua qua!

I don't speak the slighest bit of French.

The moral of this story is that both the Americans and the French are both arrogant jerks, present company excluded.

This post has been edited by Slade: 08 April 2005 - 08:50 AM

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#19 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:15 AM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2005, 05:22 PM)
The term NOn-native english speaker is really stupid, just call them ESL, english is a second language.

Madam, your english on these forums is Superb!  It's probably better than mine.


Probably? wink.gif

Madam, like many others, it never occured to me that you were a non-native English speaker until you brought it up. Ever since then I've struggled to find any
sort of sign (grammar, spelling, etc.) that would indicate it but I've found none.

I truly and jealous of your ability to speak fluently in more than one language. I can't say anything than a few odd words of Spanish and French, not even enough to make a full proper sentence.

That's the sorry truth of being brough up English speaking. It's easy to get lazy and not bother to learn any additional languages since the whole world will make everything easy for you anyway. sad.gif
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#20 User is offline   Moiraine Icon

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Post icon  Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:44 AM

Eh. smile.gif

Thing is, here in France, the teaching of languages at school is real bad. I should know, I got 15 years of it for English from 10 to 25 and I couldn't read or speak or watch a movie. What got me a fluent reader was not having the patience of waiting for the severalyears it would take for the fantasy series I was reading to get translated (David Eddings's Belgariad and Mallorean it was). And next, going to English-speaking forums greatly improved my writing. I am a terrible English speaker - lack of practice ! smile.gif

So, see, if a French person doesn't speak English to you, it is because he/she has not had the opportunity to really learn the language, anf if he/she does, it is because he/she is so proud of having made all the learning efforts on his/her own ! wink.gif
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#21 User is offline   Jen Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 10:15 AM

QUOTE (Moiraine @ Apr 8 2005, 09:44 AM)
So, see, if a French person doesn't speak English to you, it is because he/she has not had the opportunity to really learn the language, anf if he/she does, it is because he/she is so proud of having made all the learning efforts on his/her own ! wink.gif


I second that emotion -- granted, I only lived abroad for 6 months, but I found that most people who spoke English back to me were just excited to be getting the practice -- and, that any time I tried my French out, most people were gratified by the effort.

That being said, I have to say that I was always REALLY impressed by the level English comprehension and ability by everyone I met in France. My host sisters and brother (ages 13, 15 and 18, respectively) were phenomenal -- as good as my French, certainly.
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#22 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 02:41 PM

Moiraine - I read those books! I have both series in my bookshelf at home.
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#23 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 06:40 PM

QUOTE
Probably?


I spate at thee with hells fury! For thine english thou art impecable! I have spaketh!!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 08 April 2005 - 06:41 PM

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#24 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Jen @ Apr 8 2005, 10:15 AM)
I second that emotion --


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#25 User is offline   Moiraine Icon

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 04:24 AM

Madam Corvax, I am very sorry I derailed your thread ... blushing.gif

Thing is, your post struck a nerve in me : you know, for a while, it hasn't been easy being French on international forums, one gets weary being treated at every turn of being 'cowardly' and 'ungrateful', and what saddened me the most was when it got so frequent that even my close forum friends didn't see how it was such a big deal.

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to barge in here and annoy people with emotional rants ! blushing.gif
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#26 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 04:46 AM

Moraine, no need to blush or apologise for barging. In fact I am very grateful that you do understand what I mean.

I've been preparing my linguistics notes and here is another thought which native speaker should consider:

"Once alerted to the fact that speaker is not fully grammatically competent, native speakers seem to have little difficulty in making allowances for it. While grammatical error may reveal a speaker to be a less than proficient language-user, pragmatic failure reflects badly on him/her as a person. "

The problem is, this is often neglected in teaching foreign languages. While people may have a perfect command of grammar, they do not understand the "pragmatic force*" of an utterance and while having the best intentions, may appear to native speakers downright rude or boorish, simply because they do not understand the rules governing the speech acts in a given society.

*intention of an utterance - wheter it is a request, order, criticism, etc.

Thus existing in an international furum is doubly difficult, since we must also allow for cultural differences between English-speaking variety. In fact, this is amazing that any sort of communication other than pirate wars is going on wink.gif
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#27 User is offline   Moiraine Icon

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Post icon  Posted 12 April 2005 - 08:14 AM

Very true, Madam Corvax. thumbsup.gif

I guess not being able to see each others is as much a blessing as a curse : at least, we don't get further confused by the cultural differences in the physical gestures associated with speach. dry.gif

One thing I find frustrating : the fact that on a forum with people mostly from one country, no matter his mastery of the language, a foreigner will miss so many local references. Like when people refer to M. XXX who is a local TV celebrity of whom we foreigners have never heard of. Or when an Aussie and a Brit start talking about cricket ! dry.gif

Bah, in exchange we get some fun. I can't keep smiling at the bizarre exp​ression "being beside yourself with ...". No wonder we never got rid of the British in battle considering there were so many of them present more than once ! tongue.gif

And for example this : the French word for the 'pink' color is 'rose'. So whenever I read, say, "the mountains rose", I see them rising and I see 'em pink ... smile.gif

What I think is wrong in the French school teaching in foreign languages is that they never make it 'real'. I mean, you can learn for years and never meet real people who speak English.

Slade, I am very glad I started English reading with David Eddings, he is quite easy to read. If I had chosen Feist's "Empire" series, I might have quit in despair ! smile.gif
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#28 User is offline   Jen Icon

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 10:43 AM

QUOTE (Moiraine @ Apr 12 2005, 08:14 AM)
And for example this : the French word for the 'pink' color is 'rose'. So whenever I read, say, "the mountains rose", I see them rising and I see 'em pink ... smile.gif


Whenever I ordered a sandwich in France that listed "salade," I would always expect my lunch to come with a little side salad, maybe some tomatos, some delicious dressing ... only to remember belatedly when it arrived that "salade" meant the piece of lettuce sitting on top of my jambon ...
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#29 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 10:50 AM

On the subject of difficult English - Any Victorian writer would also befuddle new speakers/writers of the language. Hell, even I get confused at times when I attempt to read some of those authors.

Why do people over in the US pick on the French? I've never understood it, but then again, I'm not under the impression that all of the French have swollen necks and wear striped shirts and berets...

Indeed, tone is a large part of any language, but it's difficult to understand what ones tone is online at times. I'll admit sometimes I use it to deliberately confuse people. I think that is the reason why sign language interperators are so facially expresive when translating; they need to compensate for lack of inflection/intention.
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#30 User is offline   Jen Icon

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:48 PM

QUOTE (Slade @ Apr 12 2005, 10:50 AM)
I think that is the reason why sign language interperators are so facially expresive when translating; they need to compensate for lack of inflection/intention.


As it happens, facial exp​ression and body language in ASL don't just compensate for the lack of inflection -- they are the inflection! But they also mean much more than that -- they also carry grammatical and syntactical elements ... Off topic, but hopefully interesting!

Edit: clarity

This post has been edited by Jen: 12 April 2005 - 01:49 PM

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