[DragonLord]

No backstabbing? Making that offer to Luke far away from the Emperor, with no witnesses around.... that's backstabbing already.

I think you're missing the point JYAMG, I see that line as just a tempting false offer. Just because he said it doesn't mean he meant it. He would say anything to get Luke to follow him.

As for Vader not being an idiot, well neither is the Emperor. What good is it to have a Sith apprentice if he is liable to backstabb? In that case the Emperor would be better off killing him instead.

The whole point with the Emperor turning Anakin (and later trying to turn Luke) to the dark side is because he can control them and make use of them. If they are still a threat, why bother. He should just kill them instead. If Vader had plans to betray his "master" then this whole "turn to the dark side" stuff would be higly illogical. One can argue that Vader did indeed betray his master, but the only reason why Vader turned to the light was because of his son.

And to have Luke turn to the dark side as well, kill the Emperor and battle with Vader would be cool yes, but it would hardly be "Return of the Jedi", more like "Another Sith is born...." and that would make the Emperor look even more foolish:

"Yes your journey towards the dark side is complete! Let the hate flow... wait... wait.. Luke what are you doing? Put that lightsaber.... AAAAAHHH"

[Just your average movie goer]

I disagree with your reasoning that Vader giving into the dark side means being a slave to the Emperor. So I'd argue that you're missing the point -

It is the dark side that is controlling Vader, not the Emperor.

And you've also shot your own argument through the foot by saying that the Emperor would know if Vader might be thinking of betraying him - and would try to get rid of him in that case...

... because that would nicely play into what was going on in Return of the Jedi with him trying to play Vader and Luke against each other. At the end of it, he's clearly thinking of trading Vader up for Luke.

Now getting back to the notion of Vader not being an idiot, I don't think Vader would have let himself be pulled into that situation in the first place.

Also, your notion that Vader is fiercely loyal to the Emperor doesn't make sense. Yes, this is how he is characterised in Return of the Jedi. But think about it. There's no reason for him to be loyal to the Emperor. There isn't a single other man in the Empire who wouldn't follow Vader's every whim. What does he need the Emperor for?

No, I believe his offer to Luke in The Empire Strikes Back was genuine. He'd finally met Luke, got an idea of what he was like in a fight... his brain started ticking and he thought that maybe he could use Luke to overthrow the Emperor.

Now what happened is that this, like all the other interesting plot threads in The Empire Strikes Back were subsequently dropped.

You're looking at events in The Empire Strikes Back as if the events of Return of the Jedi were already set in concrete - when we know that isn't the case. Just take Luke and Leia for instance. They were never brother and sister until Return of the Jedi was released.

I look at The Empire Strikes Back on its own, with all the possibilities it presented still wide open.

Just because Return of the Jedi cops out on them and makes them suddenly redundant or non-existent doesn't mean they never existed in the first place.


Also, your criticism of Mnesymone's idea missed a rather clear sharp point. What my brother is suggesting is not that Luke becomes another dark jedi. What he is suggesting is to push Luke to the brink of the dark side and then have him draw back at the last moment. And I think this is a good idea. It can be Luke's final challenge in becoming a Jedi Knight.... to overcome the lure of the dark side.

Mnesymone's suggestion stems from the idea that it would be more interesting to explore Luke's dark side than to explore Vader's light side. And I agree with this fully.

[DragonLord]

Well ok that was a lot. Lets see...

First of all, ok the dark side controls Vader and not the emperor. But the emperor is a powerful Sith Lord, and therefore it is somehow logical that the emperor has control of him. If that isn't the case, why try to turn Luke to the dark side. If Luke is a threat to them as a Jedi, then he should be a threat as a Sith as well, right?

As for me shooting my own argument in the foot, I don't quite follow you. He is playing Vader and Luke against each other to lure Luke to the dark side. Not to destroy Vader. If he wanted to do that he could have done it himself. The emperor also says at one point: "I wonder if your feeling about this matter are clear, Lord Vader" which means that he is suspicious even though he is Vaders master.

All I am saying is that if Vader is liable to betray the emperor, then why even have him around. Why turn Luke to the dark side? Why not just kill them both?

As for your brothers suggestion, he said:

this isn't Luke teetering on the edge of darkness, recovering and then saving his dying old man - this is Luke falling to darkness - a genuine Dark Side Luke - and then he and Vader duel for mastery of the Empire.

That meant him turning to the dark side didn't it? Seems I didn't miss a clear sharp point at all.

This post has been edited by DragonLord: 08 April 2005 - 10:26 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Yeah, you're right about that last part. I just re-read it to clarify. Fair enough.

As for the other stuff, I think we'll just agree to disagree.

[Mnesymone]

Ummm... dragonlord - that bit where you said you didn't miss my point and even quoted what I said - I wasn't talking about Return of the Jedi - I was talking about alternatives to it. - I was talking about Vader bringing Luke before the Emperor - the Emperor begins his speech to Luke that ends with him taking up his lightsaber and striking the Emperor - and rather than Vader blocking him - Vader LETS LUKE KILL HIM - then they fight - the Dark Lord of the Sith - his waning powers, but waning from great strength versus the Luke, newly darkened and growing ever stronger. Ending with Luke striking Vader down and dying on the Death Star - unredeemed.

As for the notion that the Emperor is truly and wholly Vader's master and wouldn't keep him around if he was going to backstab.
The Emperor does not truly control Vader - he only controls him while he is more powerful - Vader's hope is that with Luke's aid he would be the stronger... hence his offer to Luke to join him. He wasn't just trying to corrupt Luke to the Dark Side - you have confused end and means - asking Luke to join him to overthrow the Emperor is the end - the Dark Side the means. He wouldn't just bring him to the dark side and say 'that's all I wanted'.

Incidentally, the whole idea of backstabbing is that the other guy doesn't see it coming.

[Mnesymone]

Semi-Edit after waiting too long:
So I'm not going, another sith is born - because you'll have to appreciated that this idea is not finished baking - i need to work the other in - if there's going to be a Return of the Jedi I'll need them, either to redeem or replace Luke - but i was just toying with the idea of a grim ending rather than an insanely happy one and thought that it might be impressive and powerful to finish that way - but it'd be "Return of Justice" or something like that - not return of the Jedi that way.

[barend]

Incidentally, what do Maul and Sidious mean?
Or were they just crappy names.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

crappy names....

[Mnesymone]

Thought as much.