[CowboyCurtis]

The rape this is a little heavy, but I understand what you're getting at, too, Rangwe. I don't like having Obi-Wan as a liar, either. Even in the novelisation of Star Wars it says, "...but Obi-Wan could not hide behind a lie..." MEANING he told Luke the truth. There was a student named Darth Vader, he did betray and murder Anakin.

However, there could have been alternative way to rape. What if, Amidala isn't the sweet and shy gal we think we know. What if Vader and Anakin were vying for Amidala's affections. She can't choose between one or the other? Both are charming. Both are good friends, competing in all aspects of their lives... Jedi Skills, flying, fighting, etc., trying to outdo the other.

This would have made Vader's 'betrayal' more staggering, and it would've lent itself to Obi-Wan's line, "...and a good friend," because Anakin would've been a good friend---to everyone.

[Vwing]

- Remove the blaster shot hitting Luke's hand.  It serves no purpose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, there was some great stuff in that, this is the one thing I'd just like to point out did have a purpose. It caused Luke to put a black glove over his hand, much like the glove Vader wore, and so later when he looks at his black glove over mechanical hand, exactly how Vader wore it, he comes to the realization that he is going down the wrong path.

But most of what you said definitely would've improved ROTJ (although some of it, like the other, Leia's force powers, etc. would have to be addressed in ESB, since you can't ignore ESB when rewriting ROTJ). After the rape you lose me a little though. The super dark jedi the emperor wants to create, that it was all orchestrated, I don't know, it just seems a bit too fan fiction and silly. I'd keep that the way it is. Also, I'm a softy, but I like Vader being Luke's father and being redeemed. I know you'd then have to rectify Obi-Wan lying and everything, but that's the one element of the story I wouldn't change.

That is some great stuff there though.

[rangwe]

CowboyCurtis, I am absolutely with you there 110%. I didn't even think of Luke's mom being partly responsible for events. Shows you what I know. But it also shows that you need other people to bounce ideas off of. You can have mostly good ideas that pass the Civnum2 test and the complicated idea slips in there - the obvious angle missed by a hair's breadth. We all need someone to cover our backs.

A love triangle would have been just the thing. Jealousy can turn people real bad, and it doesn't take much to trigger it. Its something most people could emphasize with.

"He told me enough! He told me you killed him!"

"Dat's right bitch, cause he had the hoe I never could, and I capped his ass for it! I'm yer daddy now!"

That's the way ya do it.

- rangwe

[Casual Fan]

One simple improvement would have been to put the Ewoks, or whoever it is you want to place on Endor, on the Imperial side.

The military situation that sets up the battle is that Rebels get intelligence that the Emperor will be visiting the Death Star II before it is finished, without the Imperial Fleet, which is scattered. DS II is protected by a force shield, but that can be taken out by destroying a shield generator on a forest moon. However, the Emperor himself has made sure the Rebels have gained this intelligence to learn them into a trap.

Like all things with this series, if you look at this too closely you run into problems. The Rebels send a commando team to take out the shield, and their entire fleet to take out DS II itself and the Emperor. OK, if there is no imperial fleet, then why risk their entire fleet? Why not just send the Millenium Falcon and a second commando team to kidnap the Emperor? If DS II is not working what do they have to face besides the Imperial Guards? But all this can be explained away if you try really hard enough, and its not germane to the point.

The Emperor has two surprises in store. First, there is a large imperial fleet nearby that can intercept the Rebel fleet. Plus, DS II itself is operational. Note, however, that there is no equivalent surprise for the Shield Generator. Yes, there is a "legion" there but the Rebels already have assumed it is guarded, that is why they have sent commandos and the discovery of imperial troops on Endor, in the movie, doesn't come as a surprise. In fact, the existence of the Shield Generator is or should be irrelevant. The imperial fleet and the Death Start armament should be enough on their own. You could have the same setup without Endor at all, but then the space battle doesn't get a land dimension.

The Rebels discover the Ewoks and ally with them against the Shield Generator, but that is not part of the Emperor's traps. Neither side knew that the Ewoks were there or at least were dangerous, and neither put them into their plans. The Rebels sent what they thought was sufficient force to take out the Shield Generator, the Empire had it guarded -but if this failed they had the imperial fleet and the fact that the Death Star was armed to fall back on.

Now suppose that the Emperor knows that the moon is inhabited and has cut a deal with the Ewoks? Now the whole final battle makes much more sense. The Rebel commandos get ambushed by the Ewoks, their fleet by the imperial fleet and by the Death Star. The Ewoks capture Luke and turn him over to Vader, he doesn't just stroll up to the imperial garrison and turn himself in. Of course this would make the Ewoks much more ferocious and scary then they really are, and their "conversion" to the Rebel side becomes a much more serious plot point.

As a bonus, the defeat of the imperial garrison becomes much more believable -it can consist of not much more than a liason team w/ the Ewoks. The Rebel commando force can be much larger and more capable as well.

This does nothing, of course, for the cheese in the earlier Tatooine scenes but those have never bothered me, I've always viewed them as being an appetizer for the main part of the movie.

[floppydisk]

I think it would've been better if Vader fought more with Luke. It was essentially, slash, slash, kick, cut off hand, I'll never turn to the dark side. Vader's supposed to be a badass Imperial warlord, who can use the force to his advantage. He scares people with it, and can even use it to choke admirals on another freakin' starship. Where was the force in the fight? The only time we see him use it in the OT is when he pushes Luke into the carbon freezing chamber in ESB. I think the duel was a little too simple. Of course, I'd rather have it this way than with almost nothing but force powers, but a little more would have been nice.

[Just your average movie goer]

You're forgetting the force attack he used in The Empire Strikes Back when he used telekinisis to throw all those objects at Luke, that ended up with him being sucked out that giant window. That was a VERY impressive display of the dark side of the force - and a great sequence.



And that stuff about rape in Star Wars.... let's not go there... EVER AGAIN.

[Madam Corvax]

Yeeah... Please no rape in SW...That is really quite a sick idea...

[Mnesymone]

Not only is it a rather ... bad idea... it also completely destroys the idea of a good man fallen to evil... because that way he was never "the good man who was your father"- rather "the twisted prick who was your father was supposed to be murdered... by me - damn that guy was a bastard - you kill him... cut his head off and stick it on a pike.

[barend]

RE: the luke hand shot thing...

i think lukes hand being shot was cool... it was an excuse to go:

i totally got shot in the hand and it didn't hurt because it's fake

one of lucas' biggest problems is that he has to show everything that's there... he can't let things be in the background. somethings are cool because they're breif and unexplained, like a cool loop in a skinny puppy song that leaves you wanting more after dissapearing after only two bars... but i digress...
i have to say there is an exception when it comes to bionics and cybernetics... that's just one of those things you have to exploit...
robotic parts are cool and i love them, and if they're half way decently done, i'm easily impressed by their presence, i admit it...

and that's why i don't have a problem with it...

i just wish the same appraoch hadn't been done to everything else...

[Mnesymone]

The bionic hand thing might have worked if you didn't have - (pause while Luke realises his hand has been shot and guard doesn't take opportunity to blast young hopeful hero to kingdom come) then (zoom in on me putting on my flight glove everyone ZOOM IN ON ME PUTTING ON MY FLIGHT GLOVE) - especially since I don't think he was wearing it on Dagobah...

I might be wrong - but it was effective enough for all that.

[barend]

well i didn't say it was well done...

just kind of conceptually cool...

(but no where near as cool as a Skinny Puppy song)

[floppydisk]

Actually, now that I think about it, the point of the fight was for Luke to turn, not to be destroyed. I think Vader could have done it, but he didn't want to. He wanted Luke to destroy the Emporer and join him. The Emporer wanted Luke to destroy Vader.

[DragonLord]

"He wanted Luke to destroy the Emperor and join him"

I don't understand that part, and I haven't understood it when in ESB he says "Luke, you can destroy the emperor. He has foreseen it. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son!"

This doesn't seem right together with the frase in ROTJ: "You don't know the poooooweeeeeeer of the dark side. I MUST obey my master."

Where is the logic? I have to follow my master but I hope you kill him though! So we can rule as father and son.

I prefer to think of that long line in ESB as nothing but a lie What do you guys think?

[rangwe]

I think Vader is just trying to tempt Luke with whatever he thinks will appeal to Luke's "good nature". "See, even the Emperor knows you will defeat him. Join me, its a sure thing."

The only other thing that makes sense to me is that the Emperor knew his only hope of leaving behind a Dynasty was to have it be a Dark Side Luke in cahoots with Vader. Not his first choice, but his best choice, so if he died he would do so knowing his legacy would live on.

Remember the Emperor might be *crazy* at this point, in some way. One doesn't look like a commercial for necromancy and wield supreme power without it snapping your mind in some fashion.

- rangwe

[floppydisk]

At the point where Vader said, "I must Obey", he was basically rejecting Luke's plea to turn away from the dark side.