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If George Lucas was poor would the PT be better?

#16 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 07:21 PM

QUOTE (littlejerryseinfeld @ Mar 30 2005, 07:47 PM)
WRONG!

come one, everyone!

lucas is a cheap-ass filmmaker whether he's rich or not.  his catch phrase is 'thats good enough'.  he cuts corners wherever he can...

the reason he uses green screens and CGI are because they're CHEAPER!!  trust me, if it was less expensive to use a puppet for yoda, he'd DO IT.

now, if he'd actually use some of his money to create some good sets, create some good puppets, and improve the makeup - that'd BE A GOOD THING.  a better filmaker would use what he has to create a better movie. 

lucas wants to get the maximum return on the minimum investment.  and if you don't think that's how he operates...  you are sorely mistaken.


yeah, but ultimatley speaking... if he had NO money... someone else would have been the financial big shoes... meaning, they would be in charge instead of lucas...
lucas claims he didn't have total control on the OT but he did on the PT...
someone else would have insisted a GOOD director take the helm aswell...

who the fuck would have passed that new shit... no one!!!

he does the green screen thing because he's lazy!!! and someone else has to do the rendering... lucas is an old school nerd... he's probably allurgic to the small of mask glue or something...

and if he had NO money... someone else would have been in charge of the OT DVD release, and would have got the originals!!!

This post has been edited by barend: 31 March 2005 - 07:23 PM

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#17 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 08:41 PM

It's worth mentioning here, maybe, that the original STAR WARS wasn't that cheap a film. I remembered comparing its budget against that of what I guessed was the biggest and most expensive film of the year, THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, and they're not that far apart, $14 million for the Bond film vs. $11 million for SW. So, yeah, Lucas wasn't rich in the mid-70s but he wasn't that short of money. Although that hasn't prevented him from talking like STAR WARS was some low budget, renegade production (hence the need to make Special Editions.)
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Posted 01 April 2005 - 02:12 AM

It's true, the OT weren't exactly indy films either, but now he has INFINITE cash, and all of that goes to special effects. My theory is that in the original trilogy Lucas had to get a good story out of it in order for people to like it. He also used groundbreaking FX, but that was onlt part of it and he knew he didn't have the cash to make it a movie that could work on FX alone. When you're working on a film that has a low budget and you need it to be good you have to pull something together with what you've got and be creative.

Here's another interesting way to look at it though, and a related question. If George Lucas had had a limtied budget for the PT and couldn't used FX to carry them, would he have put in the effort to hash together a solid story and get good performances, or would he have just completely said fuck it and made Battlefield Earth?

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#19 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 08:52 AM

It's so hard to say, because I still attribute it to the people he surrounded himself with. I wonder if he had been "nicer" to the people who had put him through ESB, and brought SW up a notch, would've stuck on, or if Kurtz' voice would've been louder for ROTJ.

I don't know. I think it's a question that can't be answered. Maybe less money and less control would've humbled him and he would have leaned on other people more, but those currently around him are a bunch of weenies. Technically, he still went "cheap" with the prequels because he got a nobody like McCollum (seriously, who is this guy!?) and a nobody script writer like Hale when it was too late, and Dennis Muren just nods his head a George and says, "yep, we can do that."

He just does what needs to be done. Apparently, he doesn't question continuity, plotting, logic, or good taste. He just does.

All of the computer animators and production designers walked in with slackjaws, saying, "oh, I get to work for a GOD!" So, they had nothing.

All of the people who were on board before were on the same playing field as Lucas, they were working this thing from the ground up. I think, truly, it would have been better if Lucas had played the role of Producer, solely. Hired a director that has some talent, a writer that could put a script together. Lucas just comes up with a bunch of ideas like he did before and people pull it together, make it work, but question it, too.

"Midiclorians? George... come on." In biographies I've read, I've read this general comment more than a few times. (Not about midiclorians, but about people putting the brakes on Lucas, question some logic). And, I feel his wife, Marcia, was a BIG help in this department. We just don't hear about it because the divorce settlement may have basically been "hush money." ("Look, honey, don't tell people that you helped me with Star Wars ideas and putting the script together, it'll make me look bad.")

Those are my thoughts anyway.
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#20 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 06:11 PM

I'm not crazy about the team surrounding GL during the making of the prequels. He got help with the script for AOTC because there was so much criticism of his TPM script, an area where he admits he has the most difficulty.

It seems to me that GL is surrounded by yes-men. No where in the DVD commentaries and documentaries do you see anyone question Lucas. They all stand around with their knees knocking afraid that something they say or do will meet with GL's disapproval. Not a good thing for the creative process which should be challenged.

In the new Art of ROTS, there was a quote where someone challeneged an artist's interpretation of the scene. GL hesitated and then said something akin to "A good Jedi wouldn't do that." A supportive group (especially an artistic one) ought to challenge the director, but admittedly it's a difficult proposition. I think the only way collaborative artists can sway GL is by proposing an idea and hoping "the Maker" will latch on to the idea. I still have a suspicious feeling that the artistic team is populated by a bunch of gushers.

One thing that comes to mind is the reason why Chiang, who did a lot of conceptional art for TPM and AOTC, left LFL just before ROTS. Obviously he had his own book he wanted to work on, as well as some video game, but there must be something else so difficult of challenging for him that he thought it was better to leave ship at that point rather than wait out a third film which would concievably pay the bills and still allow him artistic freedom down the line. He has created his own SFX company and is trying to do is project Robotica, but again, couldn't that have all happened later after EP 3?

When I worked at the Supreme Court, I learned from several clerks (skilled lawyers fresh out of law school who often draft court opinions which the Justices then re-write) that I met that some Justices choose the best candidate based on their resume, while others choose one conservative, one neutral, and one liberal for perspective. It's also possible there's a litmus test in terms of reflecting a conservative or liberal bent. Basically, how you create your support team creates a particular kind of process.

The basic artistic consideration, however, is how much does an artist get to control his art. Even men like Leonardo and Michelangelo had teams of artists who helped them create their art. A sculptor in training might be told to create the hands, while another would be given responsibility for the feet. Guiding the whole process, and of course taking credit, was the person who envisioned the piece. Isn't that GL in the case of SW?

Essentially, we the audience (especially we here at this website), don't like his prequels and we're not afraid to say it, and I'd even say we're pretty intelligent about our criticisms. At least we're bashers with reasons to back up our opinions. But again, ultimately it's GL who has control of his art, and we can either kiss his ass or not watch his movies. But who in here is not going to see ROTS, if even to amass more reasons to hate it?

I'd say we do have a role in the artistic process because I believe that no art is complete until the artist releases it to the public for their opinion. Otherwise, it wouldn't be art, it's be a personal project which can be good or bad artistically. Who's to say if it isn't shared?

To get back to the point of this thread, I don't think GL being cash poor would have helped him much. Somebody is going to criticize his movies no matter what. So the best thing an artist can do is just make the art the way he wants it done and then either flip off the critics publically or in private. Personally, I don't have much sympathy with those who really think that GL robbed them of their childhood.

Could others have done it better? Yes! But until GL gives up the reigns to SW, that's not a thing we can do about it. I think this is already the most sophisticated forum of critique for the SW universe, and it hasn't made any (outwardly visible) impact on any of the films. Personally, I love the fact that I can feel perfectly at home in a place where I can intellectually tear up something my heart tells me I love.

(OK, so I'm rambling)
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#21 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 07:12 PM

Well said, njamilla. But I have few bones to pick with your post.

While it's true that forums such as this have had no impact on the SW films, I don't think that's really saying much, because as we've discussed- NOTHING would ever make Lucas change that brilliant mind of his. If God himself visited Lucas and suggested he make a few changes, the bearded one would say "sorry but it's my vision and that's how I want it," etc. Nothing could ever make Lucas change his mind; not the fans, not the forums, not the critics- nothing. So saying this forum has been ineffective in making changes seems somewhat pointless. It's not gonna happen no matter what, because the ONLY opinion George Lucas cares about is his own.

Also you say that there's nothing we can do about the bad Star Wars movies George Lucas is making. Well I say there IS something we can do- and we're doing it right now. In forums like this one, all over the world, people are meeting up, discussing their mutual dissatisfaction and sharing their opinions about Mr. Lucas' terrible movies. The results of this will be very very noticable in years to come. The dollars may decide the PT's placement on "top grossing movie" lists, but WE determine the ultimate fate of the films and there's not a thing Lucas can do about that. We the fans have the power to keep Star Wars alive, by discussing it, sharing our love of it, etc. In the years to come, the crappiness of the PT will be as oft discussed as the brilliant of the OT. And just as the legend of the OT is now secure in the minds of millions, so too will the poor quality of the PT. Because of us, the prequel trilogy will forever be seen as the terrible trio of films that they really are. For years to come (and maybe forever) when people think of the PT, they'll think of bad, poorly made movies.

And so while it's true that we may not have the power to affect the movies before they're released- we sure as hell affect them after they come out. Lucas forgot that his power ENDS once the films hit theaters. He may be a gazillionaire, but he can't buy adoration or fondness or a 30 year romance with a bad trilogy of movies. Yes he'll make plenty of money from the PT, but ultimately he's the loser in this equation, because the name "George Lucas" has now become synonymous with "bad movies" and I think it's going to stay that way until Lucas becomes one with the force, if you catch my meaning. From now on when people think of George Lucas, they'll think of the rich man who killed his own franchise. His days of being seen as a visionary are over- from now on the emperor has no clothes. And you know what? WE did that. Our message board posts, our emails, our mutual dissatisfaction. We raised our voices and even though George Lucas will never hear them- history absolutely will.
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#22 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 08:40 PM

I pretty much agree with your points, but perhaps not to the degree that you're hopeful (or certain) that GL's legacy will be of prequels that are bad filmmaking. I think they're decent films that I will watch over and over again. (As will millions). I and everyone here, where hoping for better than that; a film that we could all say to our friends, "Oh, yeah. You have to go see it." Something I would say for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Hero and Lord of the Rings, but not for EP 1 and 2.

I know I won't be going to see ROTS for the lightsaber fighting, but I'm hopeful that there will be enough action to keep me from getting bored. Not the best attitude, but I've (we've) been burned before. It still could be the best of the prequels. Especially since AOTC, I just want to see stormtroopers in action. I've given up on the Jedi.

history absolutely will.

With this, I'll definitely have to disagree. Message boards have a presence, but not an eternal one because what remains of good discourse is often a function of its media. Unless this website becomes enshired with some authority, I think our thoughts will only remain within our sphere of our discourse, not that of the outside world.

I think my book's got a better chance of making a lasting impression simply because physical books don't disappear into atomic oblivion when you turn your computer off. But alas, even that is fleeting. If people really were interested, I'd be selling more of my books. As it is, it's more likely that people will be reading my interpretations of SW a hundred years from now simply because my book will be in the US Library of Congress. Maybe by then, all of their books will be available on a computer disc the size of a stamp.


As far as this place goes, I think it's cornered the market on literary satire of SW. But will this place be enshired? That's for the future to tell. At this point, this website is more of a refuge, our own kind of Dagobah.
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#23 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 08:53 PM

Again, good points all.

Though to clarify, I didn't specifically mean that this site would decide history, etc.

I mean that this site is largely representative of the die hard star wars fans out there, etc. The films are on everyone's mind now because they're in theaters, but once things die down, it's people like us who keep the memory of the saga alive. I guarantee you that today's kids won't grow up talking about how much they loved the prequel trilogy, like we did with the OT. Actually today's kids might even grow up talking about how much they loved the OT as well, that's how good those films are.

In any case, what I really meant was that the people who post here are indicative of true Star Wars fans on the whole and I think the crapiness of the PT will soon become a part of history, just from people discussing the films at forums like this one, etc. No one board will decide the fate of the movies, but I'd say it's a mortal lock that based on the way the first 2 films went over, their place in the annals of shameful moviemaking is secure. Yeah, people will watch them because they have the words "Star Wars" in the title, but they'll never achieve one iota of the reverence that the OT inspires. In fact I think the PT will go down in history for being bad with the same fervor that the OT had for being good.

Message boards are just the current vessel for getting the word out, but even without them- the word still exists. And it's spreading like wildfire. Long after we've abandoned the internet for the next big thing, people will still be talking about how great the OT is- and how crappy the PT is.

I'm reasonably sure I'm correct about this.

P.S. What's the name of your book? Where can we pick it up? True we disagree on some points, but from your extremely well written posts, I'm guessing i'd really enjoy your book.
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#24 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 09:25 PM

people will still be talking about how great the OT is- and how crappy the PT is.

My impression is that the OT is a very generational thing. SW is pretty much universal, but it too will die away as it did 15 years ago before Shadows of the Empire. what I call "the dark times" when commercialism was the only thing that would revive SW.

I've been through each of the prequel films as a teacher of ten-year-olds, and there's not the same kind of affection and enthusiasm this new generation has for SW. I'm not going to argue with parents to the contrary who say their kids are buying up all the toys, but there's basically no comparison of the novelty of ANH and ESB on our generation to the experience of today's kids (at least in the Washington DC area). To them it's just another sci-fi movie. For us, it changed cinematic history, and we were part of it. To 10-year-olds today, the OT are just old films, and for better or worse, they just don't get it when I tell them I'm taking the day off to see ROTS.

It's funny, but I've become the fuddy duddy to them, when I'm the one who shows a true intellectual and emotional passion from something.


What's the name of your book?
Check my sig and then go to www.shimmeringsword.com. You can buy it at amazon.com.

Enjoying the conversation too!

This post has been edited by njamilla: 01 April 2005 - 09:29 PM

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#25 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 09:59 PM

Great posts, guys. So nice to see the exhaustive release between you two. Certainly clears the air.

Maybe Chef can call his buddies at EW and get a mention, what with the new release and all.
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#26 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 12:43 AM

In a few years the PT will be just like the sequels to The Matrix- barely acknowledged derivatives of a classic film.

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#27 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 10:12 AM

If George was poor

Oh, the English teacher in me had to come out. It should be "If George were poor".

This is the subjunctive in an "if clause" speaking about a state which doesn't exists and has the possibility of existing. Of course, you all know that the successive main clause must be followed by a conditional form of the verb -- would, could -- or the inflected form of "may" as "might" to indicate possibility. Subjunctive
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Posted 03 April 2005 - 06:23 AM

That's nice...

But if George were poorer he would have had to call on good writers to temper a good story, rather than soak up all possible digital effects technologies and unleash them on his ill-conceived musings that was the script to Ep I and II (... and, perhaps, III... hell and damnation!)
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