[CowboyCurtis]

On top of it all---look at what Kurtz is saying. He isn't saying, "hey, I came up with the ideas for Star Wars, Lucas shouldn't couldn't get all the credit." No, what he's saying is, "Lucas had better ideas, he should've gone with those."

That hardly takes away from Lucas at ALL!!

When people say the films aren't mature enough, you say "they're not supposed to be." When people say adults can't enjoy the PT, you say "well they're for kids." Basically your counter to every arguement is that this is George's vision and not the vision of the kids who grew up with the OT, etc.

Exactly, and just like Lardbiscuits excuse is that "[Star Wars] ain't Shakespeared," yet in the same breath, he says how Jar jar is comparable to the fool in Hamlet.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 28 March 2005 - 05:49 PM

[barend]

And it seems like you'll never be able to comprehend (or accept) the fact that millions of people like the prequels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i thought we agreed that popularity was not a qualifiable factor.

[Just another wretched fan]

i thought we agreed that popularity was not a qualifiable factor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

jariten, you should agree man, or else the raw statistics will have you beat...

some one needs to go dig them up from that post somewhere...

This post has been edited by Just another wretched fan: 29 March 2005 - 01:02 AM

[jariten]

i thought we agreed that popularity was not a qualifiable factor.

Barend, you're right. I posted that in haste, and I regret it now.

snaithbert-

What you havn't grasped yet is that, in this thread, i'm not trying to bring the actual quality of these films into question. I'm only trying to raise questions about who SW was intended for originally, what it got twisted into over the years (which was where Kurtz was originally brought into it). I'll always tell you that TPM is (will be) the worst episode by a country mile, but i'll also tell you that Lucas had the same audience in mind that he did for ANH when he wrote it. The same goes for Empire, Jedi, Clones and (probably) Sith. That's all i'm saying.

When people say the films aren't mature enough

When did I say the films werent mature enough? Aiming them at children doesnt have to make them immature. All the mistakes in TPM, all the things that dragged that film down can be found at the points where Lucas stumbled with trying to target his demographic. The same could perhaps be said for Jedi. Just because something is aimed at, say, a 10-15 year old audience, doesnt mean that people younger or older can't enjoy them.

He turned the films back into silly saturday morning serials, except this time he removed all the heart and and soul and replaced it with bland, boring characters and uninteresting situations.

Well you're talking about quality again, but from reading that first sentance it does seem as though we've reached some kind of middle ground. The main difference being that I think SW is has never been anything more than "silly saturday morning serials.

So basically you're assuming my kids will be complete idiots then.

How is your opinion of the character going to inform theirs? or are you going to demand they dont like him?

Or do you really consider liking R2 D2 to put you any further up the intellectual ladder?

This post has been edited by jariten: 29 March 2005 - 03:03 AM

[snaithbert]

How is your opinion of the character going to inform theirs? or are you going to demand they dont like him? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh believe me, my kids will think and act EXACTLY like I do.

Otherwise what's the point of having kids?

Or do you really consider liking R2 D2 to put you any further up the intellectual ladder?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dunno if liking R2D2 makes me an enlightened man, but let's just say I'd rather have my kids worship a robotic garbage can than a racially insensitive, slightly offensive, completely unfunny cartoon.

[The Other]

And I bet I could find some people UNDER thirty who feel the same way.

You rang?

Nineteen over here and I agree with everything you said. I saw the OT and TPM when I was thirteen so I was right on the fringe of the fan base Lucas is supposedly shooting for and even then I could tell that something was very different between that old trilogy and the new one. It wasn't until I saw ATOC that I was realized the difference was quality.

In my opinion the PT relies on quantity to support it. Like how many OT characters can we introduce? Or how many actions sequences can we have? Or how much movie time can we eat up with special effects? There is no basis for quality stuff like a cohesive plot over the course of the three films or character development or even exposition.

Where as the OT was full of the quality stuff. We were introduced to the characters over time rather than just having them all thrown at us in the first fifteen minutes of the movie. The plot carried over through all three movies and the villains remained the same for the most part. The action sequences were well spaced out with things in between them like a romance that had actual chemistry.

Obviously Lucas prefers quantity over quality as the early hack up of the ESB shows.

the result was a confused mess, going for action at every cut.

This describes the prequels to a T.

[jariten]

Oh believe me, my kids will think and act EXACTLY like I do.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CowboyCurtis]

Thanks, Other. It's always nice to see someone younger who notices the differences between the two trilogy.

[snaithbert]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not only will they think and act exactly as I do, if they don't- I'll beat them.

With my shoes.

And my shoes have a lot of nails in them.

[snaithbert]

Well said, Other.

You sum up the problems with the PT quite well.

Just goes to show that it doesn't matter if you're 19 or 91- if you've got a brain in your head, you can tell that the PT blows.

A lot.

[jariten]

I wrote something, regretted it, and deleted it.

Lets try to keep things in perspective here. We are only discussing 5 films, and with the prequels, its only two. There are millions more in existence. If you think its wise to judge a person by their opinion of TWO FILMS, well hey its your path to take, but I think that most rational people would chirrip "thats pretty weak".

Still though, good times eh?

This post has been edited by jariten: 30 March 2005 - 04:49 PM

[Mnesymone]

There is a boundary between opinion and fact - and people are allowed to like whatever they like.

However... the best works are collaborative works, with a good deal of time behind them.

Lucas can create a world, and a "bones" story. He can direct, but not very well or very objectively. He can write, but on a broad basis - his detail work is quite shoddy, hence bringing in good writers to temper his work and flesh it out. He can produce a vision, and find expert technicians to render it possible, like Frank Oz's muppetry to bring Yoda to life. He can call on a core of talented, older actors like Alec Guinness, who quite frankly, is one of the best actors this side of WWII - and through this, he can make a good movie.

Or he can direct, write, mastermind technical aspects and hire 'name'actors rather than experienced actors and make a bad movie.

But that's just my opinion.

[barend]

the biggest problem is that lucas doesn't understand body language, the importance of delivery, and quite simply how people really talk.

the imagination is there, even though his later efforts suggest it's fleeting...

the problem is, he doesn't treat film projects with the care they deserve... (or completed works with the respect they deserve)

he doesn't tell the actors what their motivation is, and that is the biggest cry for help... even the younger actors notice it... they need direction. and it is simply not his cup of tea... GL is post production assistant producer material...

he used to atleast be production material, but his faith in his machines have destroyed that...

he can feel free to write the story, and name the characters, but screenplay dialogue?

...no thankyou.

he has a place.... and it's in the background somewhere.

[Despondent]

he has a place.... and it's in the background somewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, no. He can be in front.

Lucas opened the the doors for a lot of Terrific SFX designers and artists, right?



Maybe he should just be a doorman.

[Mnesymone]

He's the guy in the front all right - and that's fine.

But he's not the only guy in the picture - he can't say that SW was an indie movie that was all his definitive creative vision or suchlike - it had significant studio backing - and significant input from others - from directors to artists and puppeteers and actors. These days he sets himself up as the only guy who knows what's going on and the god of Star Wars.

Bit vain when you think about it.