[azerty]

It's been a downhill slide all the way for me, (except for maybe Phantom and Jedi switching places). It´s all in the grouping for most people. OT (but you have to grit your teeth with Jedi), and PT (It wasn't what I expected, boo hoo).

To answer my own question - somewhere on Hoth round about Gundark time...

Another question: If there was no Empire and no Jedi, would you like Phantom Menace any more? Because it's the plot inconsistencies that seem to piss every one off the most. Forget Luke and Yoda, forget Darth is Dad, forget all that crap. Forget Hayden as well.

Anyway - what was the exact moment of total disapointmenmt?

[Helena]

Yes, the inconsistencies are a major problem, but the PT is full of gaping plot holes anyway. Nevertheless, I think it was probably Jar Jar's first appearance that did it for me.

[ernesttomlinson]

I didn't start to dislike PHANTOM MENACE actively until I began to think about it afterwards. While I was watching I was carried along, more or less. Even Jar Jar's appearances didn't really break my mood; I think I dislike him less intensely than most. But "Exsqueeze me" was unforgivable and, along the same lines, so was that two-headed announcer's saying "That's Gotta Hurt!" (Yeah, it hurt, all right.)

I walked out of ATTACK OF THE CLONES hating it, though. Was there a particular moment? Hearing Hayden Christiansen's incompetent line readings for the first time (or any time) was painful. Of course his romantic scenes were wretched but I didn't expect anything different there. I think the shark-jumping moment for me was when we see that the three heroes are to be dispatched in a gladiatorial arena. Immediately I remembered Dr. Evil's "overly elaborate and exotic death." The ridiculous fight between Dooku and the bouncy, coked-up Yoda was just the cherry on top of Lucas's rancid sundae.

Something just occurred to me about that gladiatorial nonsense from AOTC. In the first two movies and to a lesser extent even RETURN OF THE JEDI the action scenes all flow naturally as the plot demands them. Each action scene leads logically to the next. For example, in ESB, the Hoth battle leads logically to Han's desperate attempts to escape in the Falcon, leading logically to Cloud City, resulting in Luke's getting decoyed there, &c. But most of the action scenes in the prequels feel like set pieces that Lucas was intent on cramming into the movies whether or not they made sense. The pod race in PM, for example. Yeah, Lucas gins up some weak plot twist to explain it. The gladiatorial battle in AOTC is just like that too; also that sequence where Anakin and his chums are dodging through the robot assembly line (a scene that only reminded me of how much better CHICKEN RUN did this.)

[CowboyCurtis]

I got a sinking feeling as the crawl came up. I did my best to fight it, and then it just got worse and worse. Jar Jar was really the true blow to the head, but that title... that crawl when it came up. It was just a slow dying feeling.... I could not muster the joy, the excitement. ANH's original crawl is so full of life and action, and then here we get... yawn.. taxation of trade routes, and congresses endlessly debating... my god, it sounds like real life!!!

[Garth Vader]

the tpm crawl was different, and it would've baffled folk who don't know a lot about star wars and the casual joe popcorn, which I thought was funny.

[Hannibal]

also that sequence where Anakin and his chums are dodging through the robot assembly line (a scene that only reminded me of how much better CHICKEN RUN did this.)

Actually this retarded Galaxy Quest moment of the assemply line video game sequence was almost shot for shot stolen from MINORITY REPORT, including the shot where Tom Cruise almost gets his hand built into the car. Look at both scenes closely, its practically the same camera angles...

[barend]

the ewoks bothered me as a kid...

but when i realised they went through the planet core in TPM.
that was the clincher...

[Despondent]

Changing "Revenge" of the Jedi to "Return" was the first implication George really wasn't in control of his Vision.

TPM: "The Greedy Trade Federation."

I mean, sure they're greedy but I don't come to Star Wars for editorials.


Besides, If Han hadn't been greedy, none of this would have mattered.

[Lord Aquaman]

I just remember watching TPM with this really staggered feeling of "What the hell is going on here? Why isn't any of this connecting?" The first tip may have been the fact that it quickly became apparent that Obi-Wan was being treated as the 2nd banana while all this attention was given to the great continuity error Qui-Gon Jinn, and then Jar Jar showed up to make things worse.

AOTC... I didn't expect much and I didn't come away with much.

[jariten]

I'm still waiting for it (sorry, i'm in a really good mood today for some reason)

OK i'll join in. JJ was overused to the point of despair in TPM but his absolute worst moment was "exsqueeze me!" which was unforgivable. That was near the start and gave me pause for thought.

[HK 47]

I had very high hopes for TPM so it came gradually to me. But it was probably Jar Jars first appearance that made me understand I wasn't watching a Star Wars movie. The Midichlorian part tore away any hope I had left. But there were of course many other incidents that built on it. I can totally identify with Lord Aquamans feelings: "What the hell is going on here? Why isn't any of this connecting?"

[Chefelf]

Another question:  If there was no Empire and no Jedi, would you like Phantom Menace any more?  Because it's the plot inconsistencies that seem to piss every one off the most.  Forget Luke and Yoda, forget Darth is Dad, forget all that crap.  Forget Hayden as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, the inconsistencies are mostly between ESB and ROTJ with the prequels. However, I think fixing the prequels would be better (and easier) than eliminating ESB and ROTJ. I love ESB and like ROTJ quite a bit, though I see many flaws in it and a noticeable decline in Lucas's judgement/taste. Clearly making more coherent prequels would have been the way to go.

OK i'll join in. JJ was overused to the point of despair in TPM but his absolute worst moment was "exsqueeze me!" which was unforgivable. That was near the start and gave me pause for thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree 100%. While I always hate to jump on the Hate Jar Jar Bandwagon that was the point for me. Up until then I rather enjoyed the movie for all of about 10 minutes. As soon as I heard the words "exsqueeze me" it's like a switch went off in my brain. It's never been the same since. By the time midicholorians appeared I was pretty much sick to my stomach.

[rangwe]

Where did it all go wrong for me?

It really started in Return of the Jedi, in the scene where Luke has returned to Yoda to seek answers and complete his training. Yoda is "dying", spouts off some advice and then fades conveniently away. This, more than anything else, is the Rubicon for me. Its symbolic of Lucas's weariness with Star Wars, of wanting to "fade away" and wrap up the burden that Star Wars has become for him. What a sad, depressing way to push such a character off the stage! I sat in the theater and realized for the first time ever that I wasn't watching "Star Wars", I was watching something that "sucked". It hadn't worked for me.

I think it demonstrates the beginnings of outright infantile contempt Lucas was developing towards the fans of the Star Wars franchise. He wants the money (donations to his idol) and respect (recognition as an artist), clutching his creation to his breast covetously as if he doesn't owe us anything (its all mine! and no one can have it! Its mine I tell you!) while secretly hating the fact that he is dependent upon all of us for his suck-cess. His isolationism has only compounded the problem be making him unanswerable to anyone.

Its enough to make me want to weep for this lost soul, a technological wizard not unlike Darth Vader who has forgotten how to dream (if ever he even had that power), locked forever in a Vader suit of fat bank accounts, outward career accomplishment and a mephistopholian fascination of technology for its own sake. Didn't that numbskull even *pay attention* to Joespeh Campbell's praise of his early work? "Is the machine going to serve man, or is it going to eat you up?" Hello, Lucas! The mask fell over your eyes while you were busy projecting your anger at us onto our heroes.

Wake up, Darth Lucas! You're surrounded by yes-men storm-troopers armed with digital blasters and the Emperor (see also "The Man") has got you by the life-support balls! Guess what? You don't have a son "strong in the force" to redeem you either! What a horrible fate for a human being, to turn from creator to destroyer and assume airs as if the light of the world didn't shine *through* you. You can't reduce consciousness to a file size and save it to disk unless you're a "bit brain". See Star Trek: The Motion Picture for requirements for machine evolution (see also "Human Qualities").

You've reached the limit of your ability to succeed in spite of yourself Lucas! Dark Helmet is knocking at the door for your AA meeting, and no 3D re-re-re-re-scratch-the-beat-release is going to bring back the glory days.

Yer just dining on ashes, poser.

- rangwe

[CowboyCurtis]

Brilliant!

[civilian_number_two]

I thought JEDI sucked, but I didn't hate it. There was still stuff I liked, and dumb as hell as it was, it still shared a sort of faltering continuity with its predecessors. It didn't live up to the promise of EMPIRE, but it at least had in common some of the dumbness of STAR WARS. It was like Lucas realized he didn't want to be as serious as he'd led on, like he'd changed his mind after the fact. It hurt my feelings, but it didn't break my heart.

I was worried about TPM, and I was pretty bored by the dumb James Bond opening. I don't even know these guys, and already they're buried in pointless action. Obi Wan being some guy's student bothered me as well, since I knew all that "living Force" shit was gonna run through the whole show. Then when it dawned on me that unlike Bond this throwaway action was going to be integral to the story, I started to really worry. Like Lucas didn't even understand the Bond formula (aside: breaking the Bond formula worked for GOLDENEYE). But I have to go with a lot of folks here and elsewhere: I actually wanted to walk out the moment Jar jar did that goofy dive. I hated it from that moment on, and there was nothing that stood out in front of the silliness from that moment on. Even the great sword fight everyone was anticipating was ho-hum. The music was nice, but so is Carmina Burana, and the entire CONAN soundtrack, which I already had at home. The fight was nice but not amazing like Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi in CROUCHING TIGER, which I'd already seen. So, yawn.

I hated AOTC the moment Jar Jar did that goofy dive, and I hated REVENGE the moment Jar Jar did that goofy dive.