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EU Shiot What SW stuff DID you like.

#16 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 04:10 PM

QUOTE (Paladin @ Mar 10 2005, 07:45 PM)
George Lucas makes me afriad to try out creating a 'tradgic hero' in one of my story projects. But after remembering that I once did create a handful of anti-heroes that my readers fell in love with, I regained confidence in myself.

Of course, my anti-heroes were not intended to turn to evil, and their 'tradgic flaws' were based on self-hate and guilt, and not on whinyness and brat-like behavior.

I've written a 'tragic hero' as well - it's not that difficult. There are all sorts of flaws you can give a hero while still making them generally sympathetic - pride, arrogance, stubbornness, misplaced idealism or loyalty, irrational behaviour due to anger, love etc., moral weakness of some kind, even mental illness... But Lucas is the only person I've ever heard of who equates 'tragic hero' with 'selfish, conceited, whiny little brat with no maturity or self-control whatsoever'.
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#17 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:26 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ Mar 10 2005, 04:10 PM)
But Lucas is the only person I've ever heard of who equates 'tragic hero' with 'selfish, conceited, whiny little brat with no maturity or self-control whatsoever'.


Tragic, isn't it? innocent.gif
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#18 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 12:07 PM

Helena, I have one question... how exactly do people where you live define maturity? I'm asking this because we have some different definitions where I live.

I'm also asking this because I remember once I had a major anger problem that took me years to fix. Of course, I acknowledged I had a problem and wanted to fix it. Plus, I never really showed my anger to strangers unless they provoked me into getting angry at them, and in my part of the world, that's acceptable behavior.
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#19 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 02:34 PM

QUOTE (Paladin @ Mar 11 2005, 06:07 PM)
Helena, I have one question... how exactly do people where you live define maturity? I'm asking this because we have some different definitions where I live.

Well, obviously it can be a fairly slippery concept, but it would include various factors. Amongst these are self-control and self-denial (i.e. the ability to suppress one's emotions and desires when there's a good reason for doing so), consideration for the wishes and feelings of other people, recognition of one's own faults and limitations, ability to remain reasonably calm and rational in stressful situations - basically, everything that adults have in a greater degree than young children and adolescents. Tellingly, Anakin is deficient in all these qualities - so completely, in some cases, that he sometimes comes across as being more like a small child than an adult. How many normal people over the age of five go around screaming that they should be able to stop people from dying?

Having an 'anger problem' does not necessarily indicate a lack of maturity. Lots of people, me included, have a bad temper but are capable of learning to control it - that's part of growing up. What would indicate a lack of maturity is failing to recognise that it's a problem in the first place.
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#20 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 10:16 PM

QUOTE
How many normal people over the age of five go around screaming that they should be able to stop people from dying?


None I guess, and I have to admit, it was that line that annoyed me the most from Anakin -- that, and the fact he blamed Obi-Wan for his mother's death even though there isn't ANY evidence seen in the movies that he was holding him back. Honestly, his scene would have been a LITTLE tolerable if there had been some dialogue earlier showing Anakin begging Obi-Wan for a little time to see if his mother was OK, and Obi-Wan continouslly refusing to allow him to go even one moment.

I guess most of your other stuff pretty much fall in line with what I believe to be mature, but for the most part, I believe that the ability to take care of yourself and handle responsiblity are far above everything else and most other stuff are generally good traits. The reason why I asked you the question in the first place is because I've seen so many definitions for 'maturity' from people on the internet to the extent that I was willing to dismiss the whole concept as nothing more than an evolving social concept that changes to fit the mood of whatever culture happens to be prevailing...
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#21 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 08:22 AM

Yes, responsibility is an important part of maturity, and a lot of the things I mentioned above come under that heading. But I find it hard to believe any culture would consider someone as 'mature' who thinks it's acceptable to fly off the handle at the most trivial incidents, or never thinks about anyone except themselves, or constantly demands instant gratification without considering the long-term consequences of their actions. That's the way little kids behave - think about a toddler who throws a tantrum because his mother won't buy him an ice-cream.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#22 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 11:11 AM

QUOTE
But I find it hard to believe any culture would consider someone as 'mature' who thinks it's acceptable to fly off the handle at the most trivial incidents


There are some people out there who get angry over presumably little things, and tend to remember them for years on end. I've gotten pissed over at mistreatment I've recieved from people and continued to get angry over them even YEARS after that event. My problem in this case could be counted as "caring too much". I have to admit, blowing your stack over trivial things or giving extremely harsh treatment to others and exagerrated statements and insults with little to no evidence is not really mature at all. I've been given some shit poor treatment by Game Masters on RPG websites before inspite of my continious attempts to be friendly and polite and I ended up recieving sucessively worse treatment until I've taken more than I can handle. I won't go into the details unless you ask me, though.

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or never thinks about anyone except themselves, or constantly demands instant gratification without considering the long-term consequences of their actions.


So... being incredibly selfish and vain is also a trait of immaturity? BTW, what kind of long-term consequences are there of continious instant gratification, anyway? I'm not saying that I constantly recieved praise, and I never ever demanded praise or gratification from anyone. I usually got praise when I wrote a good story or when I wrote short articles that people found very meaningful and informative, as well as entertaining, but after a while I kinda got tired of it all and politely asked them to stop showering me with praise, but soon enough their only response was 'you'll just have to deal with it' biggrin.gif

QUOTE
That's the way little kids behave - think about a toddler who throws a tantrum because his mother won't buy him an ice-cream.


By defintion a tantrum is burst of unplanned and uncontrolled anger. It happens to everyone, and to me quite a bit. Normally my anger tantrums are usually those of emotional build up that occur from the bad things that happened to me in the past. At first I keep it restrained and under control, but after a while it gets to bursting point and I need to vent it on something. Normally I would solve this problem by going down to the parking lot of my apartment building and sprinting several laps across to wear myself out, and I normally let out quiet grunts when I do it. No one really notices and it's always effective. Other times include my contant frustration with some of my software not working properly, and when it happens too much too often, I get fed up of it and just outright switch off my PC, crash on my bed and sulk for ten minutes before getting back up.

Anyway, for your example of a toddler getting angry over not getting an ice-cream... I really don't think this anology really fits Anakin. We don't know too much about Anakin at all, and that's the MAIN problem with the movies. Besides, the reason why he got really pissed the second time around is because his mother DIED! This isn't anywhere near something so trivial and petty as not getting an ice-cream cone. How would YOU feel if a love one died right before your eyes because you weren't fast enough to save them?

His supposed 'whining' (I HATE that word) would have earned a little sympathy if we'd have seen Obi-Wan hold him back from saving his mother. But the MAJOR problem here is that Anakin made it clear that he didn't want to have nightmares and thoughts about his mother, and would rather think about Padme, and that's what destroys his credibility since by the time he really got concerned, it was too late...
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#23 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 01:56 PM

Um... Paladin, you seem to be taking this a lot more personally than I intended. I wasn't referring to you, or indeed to Anakin; I was just using the 'toddler' thing as a general example. My point is that the things I mentioned - thoughtlessness, self-centeredness, lack of self-control - are characteristic of young children, who tend to assume the world revolves around them and lack a sense of proportion. These qualities are generally tempered somewhat as people grow up; adults who retain many of them, like Anakin, may well come off as childish. Let me give some examples of Anakin's behaviour which highlight his immaturity:

Lack of self-control: Making no attempt to conceal his emotions even when he really needs to, e.g. on meeting Padme again for the first time. Publically complaining about his professional disappointments in front of someone he barely knows. Slaughtering an entire village in response to the murder of his mother (and yes, despite his justifiable anger, this is still a hugely disproportionate response - especially for someone who's been a Jedi for ten years).
Thoughtlessness/Selfishness/Lack of responsibility: Nearly getting both himself and Obi-Wan killed in a dangerous speeder chase. Pursuing an affair with a Senator without a thought to the consequences (and going behind his master's back to do so). Abandoning an important mission to search for his mother. Dragging Padme (whom he's supposed to be protecting) to a series of dangerous planets, with the result that she nearly gets killed as well.
Vanity/Arrogance: Claiming, with no supporting evidence, that he's more powerful than his master and that Obi-Wan is 'holding him back' (see my point about 'instant gratification'). Claiming he should be 'all-powerful' and 'the most powerful Jedi ever'. Believing he can learn to stop people from dying.
Generally unreasonable/stupid behaviour: Unfairly blaming other people for everything that goes wrong in his life. Inability to handle conflict in a grown-up manner, e.g. discussing his training with Obi-Wan rather than whinging about it behind his back. Professing a liking for dictatorships on the grounds that they 'make people agree' (this guy is how old, again?)

See my point? And from what I've read, he gets even worse in RotS. Hardly surprising Anakin ends up falling to the Dark Side when he's basically nothing more than an overgrown adolescent.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#24 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 10:03 PM

QUOTE
Um... Paladin, you seem to be taking this a lot more personally than I intended.


I take issues like this pretty personally, but don't worry about it, it's all fine. smile.gif
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#25 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:52 AM

I only like KOTOR, and the short stories I wrote when I was young. I wrote a few stories that took place in the SW universe, with real locations but made up characters.

I loved the gritty feel of Tatooine in A NEW HOPE. All my short stories were set on tatooine. Come to think about it, they were almost all about bounty hunters too, whatever.

KOTOR is by far the only REAL EU I liked.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 15 March 2005 - 02:53 AM

Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#26 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 05:49 AM

QUOTE
I only like KOTOR, and the short stories I wrote when I was young. I wrote a few stories that took place in the SW universe, with real locations but made up characters.


Oh, so what you're saying is, the locations in Star Wars are REAL? biggrin.gif

Seriously, when they included E.T. In TPM, it definately made it 'real' in the fact that the Star Wars universe is the same as ours, only taking place a long time ago, and in a galaxy far, far away...
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