[CowboyCurtis]

I can't disagree with you there. I think the way that it could be explained is if Vader KNEW that Leia was his daughter, he might have been able to detect that truth.* Just like as soon as Vader figures out that Luke is his son, as soon as he is in proximity, he's able to make that connection. At this point, he still doesn't know Leia is his daughter, so it still works. So, it's more like familiarity, closeness, e.g., I believe if Vader didn't have Obi-Wan as his master, he wouldn't ever have been able to detect him like he did in ANH, "I sense a presence, a presence I haven't felt since..."

*This is why it is a bad idea for Anakin to name daughter Leia in ROTS.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 07 March 2005 - 02:45 PM

[Helena]

I can't disagree with you there.  I think the way that it could be explained is if Vader KNEW that Leia was his daughter, he might have been able to detect that truth.*  Just like as soon as Vader figures out that Luke is his son, as soon as he is in proximity, he's able to make that connection.  At this point, he still doesn't know Leia is his daughter, so it still works.  So, it's more like familiarity, closeness, e.g., I believe if Vader didn't have Obi-Wan as his master, he wouldn't ever have been able to detect him like he did in ANH, "I sense a presence, a presence I haven't felt since..."

*This is why it is a bad idea for Anakin to name daughter Leia in ROTS.

Yes, that would make sense. Luke eventually used the Force to work out that Leia was his sister, but only after a) Obi-Wan told him he had a sister and b) he thought about it very carefully. He didn't just realise it automatically, even though he'd known her for years.

Obviously the real reason why Vader doesn't comment on Leia's strength in the Force in ANH is that Lucas hadn't decided she was Force-sensitive at that point. But at least in this case, unlike with many of the problems in the PT, there's a fairly obvious and plausible story-based explanation. I don't particularly approve of the decision to make Luke and Leia siblings, but I'm not going to pretend I think it creates a big plot hole, because I don't. Likewise, the creation of Jar Jar Binks may well be one of the worst decisions in filmmaking history, but that doesn't make it a 'plot hole' as such.

[Despondent]

So if someone would have Suggested to the Jedi council (PT) about there being "clouded vision," they could snap out of it. "Oh yeah!"


I don't buy it. Vader knew the force was strong with Biggs' friend the anonymous x-wing pilot, but lucas couldn't discern Leia, who ought to carry more midichlorians than Ben (who's presence Vader DID feel.) Maybe Ben was casting a cloak of clouded vision spell towards our good guy rebels as they made their getaway, and Obi-wan took the fall.

It's our fault people. We trusted an idiot to deliver the goods.


there's a reason his newer movie didn't earn as much, and it has little to do with a larger fan base.

and I'm tempted to edit my pronoun slip, but screw it. He's just not worth it.

This post has been edited by Despondent: 07 March 2005 - 05:26 PM

[Helena]

So if someone would have Suggested to the Jedi council (PT) about there being "clouded vision," they could snap out of it. "Oh yeah!"
I don't buy it. Vader knew the force was strong with Biggs' friend the anonymous x-wing pilot, but lucas couldn't discern Leia, who ought to carry more midichlorians than Ben (who's presence Vader DID feel.) Maybe Ben was casting a cloak of clouded vision spell towards our good guy rebels as they made their getaway, and Obi-wan took the fall.

It's our fault people. We trusted an idiot to deliver the goods.
there's a reason his newer movie didn't earn as much, and it has little to do with a larger fan base.

and I'm tempted to edit my pronoun slip, but screw it. He's just not worth it.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. I'm not trying to defend the PT. I find the 'clouded vision' thing as stupid as you do, and it's not necessary - it was never suggested in the OT the Jedi could predict the future like the Greek Oracles. Yoda and Ben didn't even know whether Luke would survive his battle with Vader in ESB.

As for Leia's strength in the Force, there's nothing to suggest that Vader couldn't discern it. All we know is that he didn't mention it, for which there could be two good reasons: firstly that he'd met her before (which is very likely), and secondly that he didn't want her to know. After all, Vader helped wipe out the Jedi because he knew they were the only ones who could challenge him and the Emperor - telling a known rebel that she's strong in the Force is probably the last thing he'd want to do.

I don't particularly like defending Lucas, but I do think that in this case you're being a little unfair to him. Whether or not you think it's a good decision plot-wise, there's nothing 'absurd' about Leia being Luke's sister and Vader's daughter. The plot of the OT may have taken a turn for the worse in RotJ but it still holds together reasonably well; it's the prequels that are the problem.

[Despondent]

Well, the good news is we disagree even less, because I'm one who doesn't mind the sibling mystery so much.

Of course I was clued into it three years before Lucas revealed the plot twist in that awful Jedi dagobah scene. That's where my disappointment began.

On the other hand, one of the more powerful scenes I remember is where Darth reads his son's mind and comes to the apparant realization that Leia is alive. To me, that was crucial. (Obviously it was for Luke too. Which I suppose makes your point.)

To admit Vader was aware of her prior to that just kills another classic OT moment.

[CowboyCurtis]

Exactly, as much as I dislike Leia being Luke's sister... the scene under the throne room is a big pay-off! This is where a dumb idea can be made to work.

It could've been just as effective if Leia had just been another Jedi rather than a sister. Vader's lines are just as powerful (yeah, here I go again rewriting ROTJ in my head. )

[Just another wretched fan]

Ykno, the beauty of the Luke/Leia relationship is that you can deal with it, unlike Anakin the brat or Jar Jar.

I think it does make sense that Vader saw that Leia was strong in the force, like the anonymous wingman, but didn't detect that familial relationship until Luke accidentally gave it away.

I makes me wonder how Vader learned about Luke. I guess he just became a celebrity after Yavin and the last name, combined with his force aura in the x-wing, made the relationship obvious to Vader and Palpatine.

[Michel Orla]

Well unless you watch ESB on DVD, where Vader has to be told Luke is his son. Great changes that Lucas made!

[Helena]

I actually like the scene where Luke and Leia discuss Leia's mother. "I have no memory of my mother... I never knew her." It's quite poignant and one of the better scenes in RotJ, in my opinion. Of course, now Lucas plans to screw it up by having Padme die in childbirth, meaning that Leia couldn't possibly remember her...

[CowboyCurtis]

There's a lot of possibility in that scene. It's ruined with that little awful Han's "jealous snit" thing at the end. I thought these people were grown-ups. Anyway. Not a terribly bad scene. It's better acted than the fireside scene.