[nerfherder69]

I have to point out that I believe that Darth Vader and the Emperor did a seriously bad job of trying to convert Luke to the Dark Side. Example, they would use lines like "give in to your hate," and other lines that weren't really that eniticing.

If I were Darth Vader, I would have used a slightly different approach. First of all, I would have pointed out to Luke that Leia was his sister. I would have explained to him that he's only seen about 3 chicks in his galaxy, and two of them were relatives (Aunt Beru, Princess Leia). The 3rd was the old chick with Admiral Akhbar in the Return of the Jedi Battle scene.

My approach would have been this:

Join the Empire, and we can hook you up with hot chicks. We can make you rich. No more running around getting the hots for your sister with a bunch of hairy aliens.

Relax, join us, and enjoy the high life. Broads, Booze, etc.

I really think that would have been a much better approach than attacking Luke and yelling at him to join the darkside. That's just me though.

[Helena]

My approach would have been this:

Join the Empire, and we can hook you up with hot chicks.  We can make you rich.  No more running around getting the hots for your sister with a bunch of hairy aliens.

Relax, join us, and enjoy the high life.  Broads, Booze, etc.

This might work, but only if Luke was a selfish and easily corruptible person, which he doesn't appear to be - remember that the Empire had killed his family and tortured his friends. And Yoda does state that anger is one of the quickest paths to the Dark Side. I think Vader and the Emperor were just using the strategy they thought would work best on him.

[Lord Aquaman]

Maybe Vader should have tried the shake-hands-with-the-dark-side approach.

DARTH VADER [holding his lightsaber out to Luke with laser blade activated]: "Be the first to shake hands with the Dark Side. [Luke tries to shake hands with the lightsaber blade and cuts his hand off; Luke screams in pain; Vader smacks himself in the helmet] "Handle first, handle first..."

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 12 February 2005 - 12:00 AM

[Despondent]

Well I don't know. How do the religions that worship the dark side, attrack new followers?

Maybe this is too simplistic. Virgin birth and superblood need to precede everything.


Plus a witty sidekick. All the fans consider him the favorite says George, rubbing our noses in it.

[Paladin]

This is EXACTLY what they did in the Mad Magazine parody of Star Wars all those years back. During the duel part, Darth Vader tells him the same thing, "join us, and you'll have wealth, spaceships and a galaxy all your own." Then Luke says, "you're wasting your breath." After which Vader replies, "and beautiful girls," then Luke says, "how MANY beautiful girls?"

What's ore is, it's a really cheesy way to get someone on your side. I mean come on, would you really betray all your friends, your family, your nation, and everything you hold dear for a bunch of things like women cars and whatnot? I wouldn't, for sure.

[nerfherder69]

"I mean come on, would you really betray all your friends, your family, your nation, and everything you hold dear for a bunch of things like women cars and whatnot? I wouldn't, for sure."

I would give in to that before I would buy "Give in to your anger!"

If he explained to me that Leia was my sister, I would have given in. Luke had been on at least 3 planets, and there was only one chick his age, and she's his sister. I think if Vader trapsed out 4 or 5 hot chicks, maybe one with three boobs and a vagina on her face, it might have worked.

[Helena]

"I mean come on, would you really betray all your friends, your family, your nation, and everything you hold dear for a bunch of things like women cars and whatnot? I wouldn't, for sure."

I would give in to that before I would buy "Give in to your anger!"

If he explained to me that Leia was my sister, I would have given in.  Luke had been on at least 3 planets, and there was only one chick his age, and she's his sister.  I think if Vader trapsed out 4 or 5 hot chicks, maybe one with three boobs and a vagina on her face, it might have worked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then I don't think much of your moral judgement, frankly - or your sense of priorities. As I pointed out before, Luke truly loathed the Empire for all sorts of reasons; the idea that he would happily switch sides for the sake of a few 'hot chicks' is little short of insulting. What Vader was doing was perfectly sensible - attempting to use Luke's anger and hatred of the Empire against him by making him tap into the Dark Side. He wasn't trying to persuade Luke to 'give into his anger'; he was trying to make him do it involuntarily.

[nerfherder69]

Then I don't think much of your moral judgement, frankly - or your sense of priorities. As I pointed out before, Luke truly loathed the Empire for all sorts of reasons; the idea that he would happily switch sides for the sake of a few 'hot chicks' is little short of insulting. What Vader was doing was perfectly sensible - attempting to use Luke's anger and hatred of the Empire against him by making him tap into the Dark Side. He wasn't trying to persuade Luke to 'give into his anger'; he was trying to make him do it involuntarily.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I still think it would have worked better than "Give in to your Anger." That didn't work at all.

I also think some very interesting aliens could have been created. I think "Cuntface" would have made for a nice limited edition action figure. It sure beats the hell out of a blue elephant playing the piano or a bunch of ewoks.

[Paladin]

If he explained to me that Leia was my sister, I would have given in. Luke had been on at least 3 planets, and there was only one chick his age, and she's his sister. I think if Vader trapsed out 4 or 5 hot chicks, maybe one with three boobs and a vagina on her face, it might have worked.

But Vader didn't know that Leia was his sister before he read Luke's mind during their final battle! Also, while I'm not sure what exactly is the whole point of your alien sexual anatomy, but I would rather have a human (or at least, a human-like creature that has the same configuration as humans) than an alien with four boobs and a vagina on her face (which I personally find to be rather gross than attractive).

[Xombie]

If Vader wanted Luke to give in to his anger, wouldn't a better strategy simply have been to make him angrier rather than send a signal that that was what his enemies actually wanted him to do?

WRONG STRATEGY: "Give in to your anger."

BETTER STRATEGY: "I think you're going to cry. Is that what you're going to do? Are you gonna cry, little girl? Is the little baby gonna cry?"

[Despondent]

Well I don't know. How do the religions that worship the dark side, attrack new followers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on, all you God-haters. What methods do you employ?

[Hannibal]

What the real question here is, what motivates Darth vader? Why because Obiwan was a dork and Anakin was better at floating fruit in the air?

The Jedi were turds not to free slaves, and turds for only training little kids, and turds for having a gigantic institute that looks like the Vatican.

If turning to the dark side means going against a bunch of masonic fake do-gooders who really never did much good but be all jedi-istic in their little castle with their entourage, hell, I'm in.

However, serving a dictator who tried to kill my wife...thats taking things a bit too far, even in a sci-fi movie. Uhh, and so Anakin is pissed, pissed enough to instantly become Palpy's butt slave?

I don't get it. Because he finally turns on Obi-wank Kaboozy? rage? thats what turns you to the dark side? just rage?

Alright, he murdered a bunch of people on Tatoine, well, bedoin araboid people, but sand people nonetheless...he seemed just fine hours later, cracking jokes in the bug-colluseum, and all kissy with little miss senator twitty no-bra...

[Just another wretched fan]

Vader and Palpatine are great salesmen. I thought the throne room scene was very well done. Some people believe that the Palpatine scenes were the most powerful in the movie.

Now I’ve gone ahead and fallen into the obsessed ex-fan fallacy of taking humorous comments way to seriously. Many of the posters in the forum have said some of the same things I’ll say here.

First of all KOTOR's sith rules give you some insight on the rivalry between Vader and Palpatine, especially Vader’s OT motivations. Vader wants to move up the Sith ladder and make Luke the new apprentice. Palpatine wants to encourage competition for a more powerful apprentice. I'm sure you guys know all that.

Structure of Vader’s Sales Pitch–

1- Instill Doubt: He knows Luke thinks he’s a good kid fighting a bad guy to avenge his father. So he starts to undermine Luke’s trust in his instructors with lines like.
"Your destiny lies with, me young skywalker, obi-wan knew this to be true."
Huh? What? Kenobi hasn’t been telling me something? Vader is trying to introduce the idea that Kenobi wasn’t a good guy but may have ulterior motives.

2 – Anger/Hatred: Ok, by the way, while you’re fighting me, give into your anger. “Only your hatred can destroy me.” I know you hate me for killing your dad and making you harvest moisture with your lame aunt and uncle on a boring planet on the outer rim. I know you’re too smart to fall for this one, but if you’re pissed off you’ll feel the dark side eating at you and you’ll be caught off guard when I give you my trump card.

3 – Power: Throughout the duel there is the reoccurring “Power of the Dark Side” argument which is ineffective against Luke who is not power-hungry. Vader stresses power to use it as a base for his “important destiny” argument and in an attempt to convince Luke that power is important. He points out this power in total silence as he uses the force to through objects at Luke. Also, the Power argument will be a cornerstone in the throne room scene so Vader is introducing it now.

4- Ultimatum: Round four is the ultimatum on the cliff: No more hand. You’re at my mercy. Okay, now here's the deal - you go dark side or you die. Don’t choose the latter, Obi-Wan did that and it was pretty stupid.

5- Pain: Uh…Luke lost a hand and got the crap beat out of him, if he gives in the hurting stops because he gets the best medical attention in the galaxy. Tempting.

6 – Political Argument, part a: End War: Now, I know you think you're doing the right thing, so listen to this: You’re powerful - join me and we can stop this war. He’s now appealing to the good kid in Luke. I think Vader's approach here is even deeper because Luke originally wasn't sure which side to join. Remember he almost joined the Imperial Academy, and he did say "sure i hate the empire and all" with as much conviction as a modern teenager who says “our government sucks” just to be cool. He changed from his apathetic self after prodding from Ben K and the promise that he might learn more about his father, get off Tatooine, and there was a babe involved. (I think you're right to that degree nerfherder). Doesn’t the empire have as much justification as the Union army in putting down the Confederacy to maintain order? So they blew up Alderaan…the Allies firebombed Dresden, right? Why is the Empire bad? They are the legitimate authority. Luke is an ignorant kid from a backwater world who probably doesn’t know his politics or history. I mean, I saw a post describing his ignorance of hyper drives (although that doesn’t really help my cause.)

6b –Kill Emperor Corollary: In T.S. Eliot’s play “Murder in the Cathedral,” Beckett’s final temptation involved “…the greatest treason, to do the right thing for the wrong reason.” It’s always a great way to sucker a good guy to the bad side. They go along willingly thinking it’s the right thing to do. The first part of this approach is ending war and restoring order to the galaxy. The second part involves Luke using his power to join Vader and depose the Emperor. That’s a good thing right? I mean, if the emperor were dead and Luke was in charge with Vader, they could do a lot of good. Luke could put Leia in control, she’d love him for it. Vader didn’t blow up Alderaan… Grand Moff Tarkin did and he’s dead. It’s a lot more convincing than saying “just join the dark side cause its powerful.” Luke is prepared to defend against that one b/c he doesn’t want power for selfishness as Helena said.

7 – Inevitability: You have no choice. It’s your destiny. Stop resisting. A supplementary argument that just makes everything more intense.

8 – It’s a Family Thing: Ok, you’re not buying it because you hate me because I killed your dad. Well guess what: I am your father. Obi-Wan lied (1).

Closing Argument- Now reconsider (2),(3),(4),(5), and (6) while I hit you up with more. Obi-Wan Lied, you can't trust anyone (1). If Obi-Wan and Yoda are the good guys why aren't they being honest? You’re pretty pissed off right now right? You just got your ass kicked, you don’t have a hand, you’re in pain (5), and now you’re even more vulnerable because Kenobi didn’t tell you everything. I think part of your hate (2) for me just switched over to Yoda and Ben for letting you get blindsided like this huh? Vader rehashes (6b) destroy the emperor argument, (Luke glaces away and ponders this for a moment, it must have really connected with him), (8) family argument, (7) important destiny argument, and Ultimatum (4) reminder – Accept my offer or die: “Come with me, it is the only way.”

Luke is not doing well to say the least and he is sorely tempted to crawl up the platform and go with Vader. The best way to not give into temptation is to get out of the situation. So that’s exactly what Luke does. He won’t be able to do it again in ROTJ.

In conclusion, I think Vader did a great job and Luke was really messed up until he magically got his confidence back between ESB and ROTJ. He’s a great salesman. He hasn't sold the product yet but he assuredly will get a callback.

Look how complex the whole script is. As you all know, the George Lucas of 1980 truely was an amazing writer.

[Hannibal]

"Look how complex the whole script is. As you all know, the George Lucas of 1980 truely was an amazing writer."

ahem...

"wee wanna wanga"

You do of course remember Max Rebo...he appeared in the same shocking film you so decribe above..."Awitzimatt fizzY!"

[Just another wretched fan]

Part 2

Ok. The temptations started in ESB is picked up again in ROTJ…

First of all I’d like to note that there is an interesting dynamic between Vader and Palpatine’s individual motivations to convert Luke. We all know the only-two sith dynamic. When Palpatine says “soon the rebellion will be crushed and young Skywalker will be one of us” Vader knows his master is lying to his face. Either Luke kills and Replaces Vader as the apprentice, or Vader kills Palpatine and succeeds him as master, taking on Luke as his own apprentice. (On a quick side note, I think the EU assassination attempts by Mara Jade and in Shadows of the Empire are ingenious additions to the story that seguey perfectly. Palpatine wants Luke dead because of the threat he poses if he allied with Vader , but if Luke becomes strong enough to replace Vader…hey it’s the way of the Sith). But like I said, you already knew that b/c you care about SW and you probably played KOTOR. The point of interest is that in front of Palpatine, Vader has changed his platform from “join me and rule as father and son” to “it is the only way.” But internally he is maintaining his own agenda.

ESB was a psychological ass-whupping. ROTJ is more of a heated “join my side, no, my side” debate between Luke and Vader, with Palpatine tempting Luke the whole time.

When Luke first meets Vader on Endor Vader continues his sales pitch using the “Power of the Darkside” and “ultimatum” sales pitches by complimenting Luke “indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen.” He also tries to break Luke’s confidence by saying its too late for him to turn away from the dark side. Luke is contantly undermining Vaders argument and seems immune to every point Vader throws at him. A righteous position is unassailable and unlike at Bespin, Luke isn’t confused. Luke won’t be tempted until he meets the Emperor.

When Luke first meets the Emperor, Palpatine starts his “sales pitch” fully swinging.
His preliminary conversion tactics are to

( a ) Stress his dark power and the idea that Luke is out of his league.
( b ) Inevitability – Palpatine speaks of everything with such certainty. “You will turn” as opposed to “I think you will turn.”
( c ) Fear: Cast doubt on Luke’s self-assurance and destroy his prior planning. “You are mistaken about a great many things.”

Palpatine never lets up on these points and repeats himself in one way or another for the entire conversation. By the end, Luke is visibly shaken from his former confident self. When the fleet warps in and discovers it’s a trap and the shield is still active, it only drives ( a ), ( b ), and ( c ) in further. Luke is really frustrated and angry and is becoming vulnerable. The emperor now introduces his level 2 (d) point- “Hate for Hate’s sake.” This is important because now Palpatine has built on the previous “ESB (6b) Political Argument” of killing the evil emperor because it’s the right thing to do. Now Palpatine twists the prior assertion by suggesting Luke attempt to kill him just because his hateful emotions tell him to. Really insidious. The emperor won’t give Luke a chance to defend against this tactic as he will not stop stressing (a) and ( b ) using quotes like “Each moment you are more my servant” and referring to Luke as “my young apprentice.” He shows his power and cunning by ordering the Death Star to fire. Luke looks even worse.

The emperor now ratchets up the intensity with a serious temptation…the dare to “take your weapon and strike me down with all of your hatred…I am unarmed.” Luke gives in and attacks, moving one step closer to the dark side.

Pissed-Off Luke fights Vader and seems to be winning as he kicks him down the stairs. Palpatine stresses (d) how hate and anger are making him strong. Maybe Palpatine was being overbearing, because Luke realizes he’s playing right into his hands and turns off his saber. He starts to do the right thing again, fighting in self-defense only, like a Jedi.

(d) – Hatred/Anger: Same as ESB (2) but more in depth now and combined with (a) the resulting power.

Meanwhile, Vader starts his own “sales pitch” by stressing the Emperor-friendly (a) Power of darkside and the powerlessness of the light side. (“there is no conflict”) and ( b ) inevitability: You won’t turn me from the dark side and finally

(e) the ultimatum from ESB(4): Turn or Die.

Under the stairs and away from the emperor, Vader’s tactics change immediately. He stresses that Luke’s turning is the only way to save his friends. Combined with the “ESB (6a) End War” and “ESB (6b) T.S. Eliot” arguments this is a very tempting proposition. Luke could do a lot of good like save his friends and defeat Palpatine if he joins Vader. Luke resists….but thinks of his friends, giving Vader knowledge of his daughter. As you all know, Vader now unleashes his trump card: He feigns allegiance with the Emperor by basically saying “Luke, you and Obi-Wan failed and you’re screwed. Now that we know about Leia, we don’t need to expend all this effort on you - we’re choosing plan B. You die. We win. We’ll just convert Leia to the Dark side instead.” Its really the (d) Hatred argument in disguise.

As you all know, Luke falls for this completely. He gives into (d) and attacks first, unlike a Jedi. He’s blinded by emotions – anger, fear. He’s worried about Leia, Han, the Alliance. He’s scared and confused so he fights with everything he has. Luke does the wrong thing for the right reason….he’s moving toward the dark side.

Power…Luke uses the dark side and beats Vader. The dark side brought Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith to his knees in 38 seconds. Power. Now Luke understands what Vader and Palpatine have been talking about this whole time.

Power is Palpatine’s master argument and although Luke didn’t understand before, but he now does. Sidious moves in for the kill. “Your hate has made you powerful.” He delivers a new ultimatum (e). Instead of the choice “You will join us or die.” It has become a command: “Fulfill your destingy and take your father’s place at my side.”

Palpatine and Vader are GREAT SALESMEN!!! You know Luke almost went for it.

“Ok Ok” you say, but Luke still didn’t buy the used car. By cutting off Vader’s hand, Luke realizes one again that’s he is doing exactly what Palpatine wants him to do. It’s all a really insidious trick. He is becoming just like Vader. Now, I wonder, what would have happened if Luke sliced off a leg or ran Vader through. What if he took a little off the top like in Kill Bill Vol. 1? By not seeing the shared robotic hands…maybe Luke would have turned. If you want to sell someone crap…don’t let them be reminded that they hate the product. But the reminder was completely out of Palpatine’s control. Great salesman, bad luck.

This post has been edited by Just another wretched fan: 13 February 2005 - 12:08 AM