[Jordan]

I'm no good at heated debates. I get too emotional. I'm also not good at expressing myself in words. Maybe that's why I chat here, to improve myself.

I have noticed that people do get really uptight with my comments and often backlash.

I just don't see what's so shocking about troops getting a thrill in killing an enemy?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 08 February 2005 - 01:42 AM

[Hannibal]

"Hannibal and JM insult me left and right. "

I believe what is being taken as insult is actually either simple correction or what is called righteous indignation. When one offends others sense of morals, without apology, he is asking for a fight, in our case a battle of words, or meanings. As I have stated in other threads, political rationalizations for excusing killings and making euphemisms for killing and falsely justifying killings is sick and abhorrant behaviour.

There is a difference between exp​ression of opinion, and exp​ression of inhumanity. Tolerance of someone's opinion, and tolerance of someone's unethical behavior are two different things.

When an authority figure says he enjoys killing men(not because they are in combat, but as stated, because they slap women) and other people step out to defend him, by adding, "kill their families" and also "its like killing krauts in WWII" I believe that whoever is going to go beyond the pale and set themselves up like this, any and all attacks of words on those people IS JUSTIFIABLE.

When people do not speak up in the face of fascism, immorality and injustice, no matter where it is, no matter who its coming from, then fascism and inhumanity wins.

I will not tolerate the "immature" manner in which people joke about what is seriously happening in our country and in our world. Real human bengs are being killed, and tortured, and jackasses like General Fuckhump need to be reprimanded and in his case insults are irrelevant. I don't feel bad for Eichmann when he was insulted on the stand by some jewish survivor, just because it might have offended him.

Stand in line with nazis, inhuman beings, and immoral scum, and be prepared for controversy, be prepared for insult, be prepared for people to be disgusted and in their righteous indignation, expect the world of words to be thrown at you. If you can stomach the idea of killing for fun, and for men to enjoy killing their enemies--surely my iron fisted friend, you can stomach insult.

I mean come on.

[Jordan]

I don't know what Hannibal just said there, and I don't care too know.

I'm out like a trout!

[J m HofMarN]

I think glowstick rape is an incorrect term, Hannibal. I prefer the official terminology, "patriotic prodding" and if I ever do happen to be interrogating any terrorist scum in order to protect my right to free speech I'll be sure to use "enfranchisement electrodes" and "freedom fake period blood", like one of the very humane interrogators at Guantanamo smeared over a muslim man's face.

[civilian_number_two]

IN THE LEAST OFFENSIVE TONE POSSIBLE: You guys are all nuts.


Yes, Hannibal is right in saying that any reaction to Jordan's comments derives from "righteous indignation." It's natural to react strongly to statements in defence of killing.

Jordan is right that there is nothing unusual in any way about a soldier getting a rush from killing enemy soldiers. This is natural. If you're doing something, then even if you think it is wrong and would rather not be doing it, at the very least you want to be successful.

Hannibal, however is right that it is wrong ever to admit this, and certainly wrong for a GENERAL to admit it, especially in the incredibly racist way he did. Insurgents could readily say "Once we have control of our country, once we have had consistent rule for 200 years, you will see a glorious civilization, where corporations do not send slaves to die for their profit margin, where the minimum wage is not offensive to think of, where all women are not treated like harlots and where it is not commonplace to think that any method used to gain money is a just and Godly one." And they could boast of enjoying killing these Americans, whose only claim to superiority over them is that their economy is relatively stable and whose military is better-equipped, not that they have a "more just" society. I mean what's the worst this GENERAL was able to say about ALL Iraqis? That their women wear veils and that men sometimes hit their wives? Anyone want to remind me how we treat poor people here? What niggers had to put up with in the south util they foughtand died for change? What niggers all over the US have to put up with now? And what "Free Elections" will do to better Iraq? Wouldn't trade and tourism do more? Worked hell in Japan!

And of course JM is right to apologize for picking on Jordan's typo, given that he is a notorious as I am for misspellings and typos. The very post that criticized Jordan contained typos of its own. I grant that it was a funny typo, but some dumbass crack about it being a Freudian slip would have done better than an abusive rant.

I can't believe how far-flung and personal this whole things has gotten so quickly, but I guess that's what you get when you throw a bunch of top dogs into the same pen and only throw in one bone. Yee haw.


PS: xmradioguy, you said something about fighting to do whatever your commanding officer asked you to do. Would it upset you, at any time, to learn that your commanding officer took orders from Exxon? This is purely hypothetical, of course, but what if your commanding officer ordered you to round up civiliand at random and shoot them on television, as part of a public statement to the insurgents? Would you enjoy that?

"Following orders" is not always a justification for anything, and the very obvious truth that the governments that run the military are themselves controlled by the corporations that helped to put them in power, pretty much questions any statement you may want to make about "freedom" and the military's "defence" of it. Iraq did not attack America. So if American soldiers are "defending freedom," then I need to redefine those terms:

"Defending" = Invading; "Freedom" = Another country.

Ok, now I can accept that statement.

War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

[xmradiodave]

PS:  xmradioguy, you said something about fighting to do whatever your commanding officer asked you to do.  Would it upset you, at any time, to learn that your commanding officer took orders from Exxon?  This is purely hypothetical, of course, but what if your commanding officer ordered you to round up civiliand at random and shoot them on television, as part of a public statement to the insurgents?  Would you enjoy that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would not enjoy that at all. In fact, that is what is known as an unlawful order. A Soldier or a Marine would (or should at least) be protected under the Uniform Code of Military Justice for refusing this type of order. I have never claimed that I enjoyed killing. It is not something that I would ever be proud of. There are times when it is necessary. Maliciously gunning down unarmed and detained persons is cowardice and serves absolutely no purpose to whatever the cause happens to be in this hypothetical situation.

I know someone is going to go back and copy/paste a certain post made by me regarding Hammurabi's code. Go for it. I encourage it. I am glad that post I made has received so much scrutiny from certain members of this site. That is what is so fascinating about this thread. That for the most part, we all get to state our views and opinions then be verbally lynched for them. God I love this (no sarcasm intended)!

[Slade]

Yeah, usually people are a bit less heated, this thread just really hit hard and descended into a flame war. Even Civ's getting in on the insinuation action...

I'm just glad I didn't have to moderate this one.

[civilian_number_two]

Hammurabi's Code? Isn't that a Babylonian law, from like 5000 years ago?

XM, I wasn't making any claims about you, just questioning the basic premise that the war in Iraq is justified because the president ordered it, or that a soldier can sleep easy knowing his commanding officers are making the big decisions.

I personally can't see the distinction between rounding people up and personally shooting them, or bombing civilian targets known to contain no military or military installatons. Like the Agent Orange comment earlier in this thread: there are all manner of filthy and immoral orders thrown down by corporations looking to pull their stock out of the toilet, and it's the soldiers who carry them out.

Wasn't it about a century ago that civilian casualties were RARE? This business of destroying villages to save them, and of torturing people inrder to liberate them ... we're still the good guys, is that the argument?

[barend]

cool... i was wondering if i at all fit into the "you're all insane thing"

slade: there's the odd insult... but i wouldn't call this a flame war. there are a lot of people here who have personal reasons and experience for their positions on this, so it's going to be a heated discusion and that's a good thing.

i do think jordan's getting the wrong end of the insult stick,
but i think this argument in general has great potential and is doing well because every side is covered here... except the administration responsible.

as long as this topic keeps going, i say 'oh well'
although i would like less references to anal insertion from hannibal

[barend]

on another note... a mosquito was flyiong around and i snatched it out of the air with my kung-fu grip... it looked cool, and i got a thrill out of it.

[J m HofMarN]

I kind of have to defend Hannibal here because for all of the crudeness of some of what he says he has brought up a great point.

Is it really that offensive to talk about jamming a glow stick up someone's ass while our government is actually doing this?

If you're calling Hannibal on it than perhaps you should also take action against the monsters who are actually physically doing this even as we speak. Write a letter to the government, attend a protest, sign any of a number of online petitions. What hannibal has been saying is not half as obscene as what the Bush regime are doing at this very moment, so try to keep things in context.

[barend]

i wasn't seriously bagging out hanni for the glowstick thing... it's just that i was eating a muffin...

[Hannibal]

I guess in the end all of this bickering doesn't really matter. Hofmarn is lined up by the FBI and homeland security for serious torture, me, i'll be executed for treason, the rest are not even americans, and as for the ex-marine, he will probably die of Mad Cow Disease, and if none of these things actually take place within the next year or two, I am quite sure that China, after careful consideration will simply say enough is enough and nuke the hell out of the entire hemisphere.

[xmradiodave]

Hannibal, you dissapoint me. "Mad cow disease"? that was the best you could do? What about "The ex-marine will blow himself up while planting landmines outside of a daycare facility" or "he will fall crotch-first onto his NCO sword while torturing and killing newborn kittens". Mad Cow disease? Go back and try again bub.

[barend]

oh oh how about get's HPNS (high pressure nervous syndrome) like coffee in the abyss...

or maybe a jacobs ladder type thing...

shot down while fighting a group of uruk hai?