[barend]

5th grade level? I'll have you know I'm quite capable of articulating an adequate rebutle to that slanderous remark...

YO MOMMA!!!

actually, I am writing a book at the moment, but I shall not be discussing it with you sir...

but will have you know, it's at least at an 8th grade level!!!

[J m HofMarN]

Well here it comes, a chapter of my life I'm sure you'll all find most interesting. The first "agent" I actually landed was some guy from the southwest who I now know to have been a scam artist. The guy who went by the nom-de-guere of "Ray" had been trying to convince me that Publish America (a company that STILL wants my book) was a scam and that I should go with him instead. When I informed him that I was getting kicked out of my house and needed to get published soon so I could pay bills he sent me a very compassionate reply and concluded with this:

If you want to send me Hunter's Paradox, it is going to cost you $65.00 to send it with a money order.

One out of every two of my clients get published with a major press, and not some vanity publisher.

This may be the only way to make your dream come true Jarret.

A fee to actually represent my work was not out of the question. A fee to simply read it was bloody insane! Needless to say I told him where to stick it. No real publisher or agent charges reading fees. As I recall he actually agreed to look at my book and let me pay the fee later, but when he looked at it he claimed it needed hundreds of dollars worth of his editing skills. That was when I knew for certain that this wasn't a good idea. He did actually call me and talk to me on the phone though so he gets points for courtesy.

Next up it was time for some fun with Publish America, a glorified vanity publisher that gives no advance and does nothing to help people market or even edit their books. I submitted to them and tried to talk them into behaving like a real publisher and editing my book, providing at least a 100 dollar advance and guaranteeing some form of marketing. They sent me a contract which I still have somewhere in my closet. This is funny, because when I bluffed and told them that there were other offers on my book they immediately became very interested in acquiring it (though not enough to provide me with any real motivation to let them)

In fact, they became so interested in my novel that I got an email from them with the subject line saying "your contract has been received". "funny" I mused to myself, "because the contract is in my fookin closet." Not only were they lying, but they had sent me a form letter! Not a rejection, but an acceptance! There is no legit publisher on earth that sends form letters when they accept your book it was sent to a bunch of other people as well and was addressed simply "dear author". I sent them a rather angry response and said they could talk to my lawyer (bluffing once again) and if they wanted my novel they'd have to pry it from my cold dead hands. After the threat of litigation if they tried to persue my book they apologized, claiming that my book had somehow gone from the "under negotiation" bin to the "contract received" bin. What kind of business they are running I have NO idea!

The third and hopefully final scam I was involved in is named JILLIANNE KIMBLE of KIMBLE MCKAY LITERARY ARTS GROUP I put this in bold because she is still operating and I dont want anyone to fall to her. She convinced me to pay her 300 dollars to edit my book in return for representing it. 2 years passed. I never got an edited copy of my book. I finally demanded that she start submitting it. Instead she came down with an unfortunate bout of cancer. Instead of apologizing, telling me when she might be better, refering me to her business partner or another agent, she just canceled the contract and kept my money. By now however she seems to have recovered from her oh-so terrible and well timed disease and is probably scamming more people even as we speak. This leads me to the most important lessons I've learned:

If someone replies promptly to your emails, if they praise you very much, if they seem like they actually want to publish your book, they're probably trying to scam you. A real publisher dosnt give a damn about people.

Also, NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE ANYONE ANY MONEY EVER NO MATTER WHAT. If someone needs money for copying costs or phone bill payments derived from marketing your book tell them they can take it out of your advance or your royalties and NEVER pay any money in advance.

A selection of my rejection and acceptance letters will follow.

[barend]

See this is exactly the kind of underhanded Machiavellian level of diabolical crap that non-artistic people such as footballers and soccer stars with mullets seem to never have to endure.

Why are people so hell bent on fucking us over?

[J m HofMarN]

One of the least friendly replies I got was from a literary attorey who I share a last name with(they arent the same thing as literary agents.) he made quite sure that I knew he wasnt going to represent me:

I do not function as an agent and do not know any agent to refer you to.  Sorry.

I am not willing to represent or advise you in these matters and I hereby decline to do so.  I do not express or imply any opinions about any aspect of the matters you wrote to me about. You should find another attorney.

I am not your attorney and there is no attorney client relationship between you and me.

And here you can see something I'm almost proud of: an email from the staff of The New Yorker magazine, rejecting one of my articles.

We regret that we are unable to use the enclosed material.  Thank you for giving
us the opportunity to consider it.

    The Editors

And here's a letter from Limitless Dare To Dream publishers asking me to let them see my novel and illuminating a few concerns I had about their contract, this was a nice one.

Go ahead and submit it and we will see what the review panel thinks. We never ask for your first born children. They are usually brats anyway. We far prefer second and third children.

I submitted to the Intellectual Property Management Group and was rejected but they were kind enough to list agents who might want to work with me (but who it turns out didnt)

Unfortunately, we are not accepting submissions in
this genre at this time. However, the other agents
we've recommended may be excited about your work and
you might consider submitting to them. Sorry we
couldn't work with you at this time, and best of luck
with your writing career!

An old agent, Don Meyer, gave me a great deal of wonderful advice before he retired and was actually willing to type out his own letters to me. Though he wasnt able to represent me he was still very courteous and I thank him for that. He gave me some great advice about the publishing industry, saying that it was given more to rejecting than accepting manuscripts at the moment, and pointing out that non-fiction is the best thing to try to write if you're a new author. He also pointed out that highlighting the marketability of a work is the best way to get it looked at.

Here's an excellent piece of advice that Pam Claughton sent to me. It looks long and thats whats really amazing. Knowing how busy these folks are its incredible that a literary agent would go so far out of his or her way to send a letter like this to a nobody like me. I think she'd be glad to have her advice shared with prospective authors.

Thank you for writing, but unfortunately your story is not a fit for me. I
don't read fantasy or vampire stories, so would not be the best advocate for
your work.

I do have some advice however on your query letter. I would not continue to
send this to agents. It is too long, and the beginning does not inspire
confidence. A query letter should be a professional confident letter that is
simply designed to present your story idea and see if it is of interest. By
starting out saying you have never been published but you know what you are
doing and have paid for editing....you come across as an insecure amateur.
No offense intended. Don't mention that you've been approached by someone to
write a screenplay....unless they are doing it, it doesn't matter. You will
not impress an agent with your passion for the work....you will impress her
with the writing. Send the agent what he/she asks for. For instance, I am
always amazed because I believe that just about everywhere that my contact
information is mentioned, I always ask for the first ten pages along with
the query. Yet, half of the queries I receive do not send those  ten pages.
They might send the synopsis instead, which is a waste of my time. The
reason I ask for those ten pages is to see what the writing is like.

The only thing that matters is the writing.

Keep that in mind, and start  your future queries off in a more professional
manner, maybe even say, "I am writing you because you mentioned that you
love the books of Dennis Lehane, and my novel fits into that genre." Or  "I
saw that you recently sold a book by Dennis Lehane, one of my favorite
authors. My book is in a similar genre."  Then go right into your story
information, what it's about, the main conflicts, what makes it stand out.
Then a line or two about your background. Don't get cute and say things
like, while I don't have a degree in writing. Don't point out things like
that. Simply say, this is my first novel, and I have two others planned.
I look forward to hearing from you.

And here is the worst criticism I've ever gotten. I couldnt believe there were grammatical errors left, but I didnt care about those. What really hit me was the comments about my writing style. When you've been at this so long even constructive criticism can be terribly painful.

Thank you for sending the outline and first two chapters of "Hunter's
Paradox." Unfortunately we will not be able to represent you at this
time.

Your idea is interesting but you need to work at crafting sentences
and paragraphs. Besides quite a few grammatical errors, many passages
felt plodding and stiff. I suggest you pick up a book called "The
Elements of Style" by William Strunk and E. B. White. Most of the
problems I noticed in your work are addressed in this excellent little
book.

I'm sure this e-mail is disappointing for you. Please don't be
discouraged. If you love writing, keep honing your skills and continue
to seek representation.

And here's an acceptance letter just so you know what they look like:

Thank you for your query.  Please mail the first 30 pages to the address below along with a copy of your initial email to us and a SASE.

Best,
Francesca
Vrattos Literary Agency

And here is the simplest reply I've ever gotten from Absey and Company:

We are not interested.

Sometimes you get to wishing they'd just be honest and send you stuff like "fuck off and die"

[Despondent]

Well J m, that's awful noble of you.



The length of some of those replies ought to be encouraging. If any of it was handwritten, they're the folks to persue once you've followed their advice.

Have you worn through The Writer's Market? They list the publishers and what subject/material each is or isn't looking for; to whom to submit and more. Of course you have. I found choosing an editor the most daunting task of all.

Not any more. I'm doing up color art for the second book's proposal. When I draft book number three, that will be of a different subject and go multiple submission.


Wish I was spending time providing entertainment in the screening room. Glad there's so much good stuff going on.

[Madam Corvax]

Gee, JM, you are one brave man and quite invincible. After a quarter of these repllies I would go hang myself. My rejections slips were never that inspiring and inspired.
They just said things like "We are not interested" or "we are unable ot publish your book" ot "we have no more capability to publish this year", and of course I was not gullible enought to think that they might have some capacity next year.

I was quite baffled about the attorney letter "express or imply" is the jargon of contracts! What did he/she ever "express or imply"?

[J m HofMarN]

Ah its really nothing. And yeah I receieved at least 50 of those form rejection letters these are just the ones that stuck out. I'm not sure what the lawyer guy was up to either.

I'm nearly throught writers market but as I said I'm working with Limitless Dare To Dream Publishers and I really hope to have a contract with them. One of the things that wowed me looking for publishers was the number of evangelical Christian pubs. Disturbing...

[njamilla]

The publishing industry is tough and unprofessional these days. They all complain that they are understaffed and then publish a lot of schlock because it sells. It's a business. It's THE business. It's all a buck. Don't expect much from publishing companies and be tough as iron when they send you their rejection letters.

A personal note is the exception. A standard rejection letter is par for the course. The shorter the letter, the more professional the company. And don't take anything personally.

Funny as it may seem, it doesn't matter how good or bad your writing is. It's whether or not your writing suits the publisher or agent. And you don't want it any other way, even though it makes it tougher to have a book picked up. Regardless of how well you write, you want an agent or an editor who feels passionate about YOUR writing. So rejection letters are good because you've weeded out those people who won't put your writing on the front burner.

I've gotten several rejection letters where they say I have excellent writing skills but that the book didn't suit their taste or their publishing plans. These weren't form letters, but real handwritten comments. The bottom line is that your writing (grammar and style) have to be excellent in the first place (it is assumed), and then your genre has to suit the needs and interest of the publisher or agent. Only an agent who likes your style best knows where to try to sell your book, and only a publisher who feels 100% confident in the book will spend the money to promote your book. Plenty of excellent writers get rejected. That's the nature of the beast.

Perfect your craft, find your niche, write for yourself first (with an audience in mind) and then hope you have the luck to find the correct match. It's just like a marriage. You want committment and a long life together.

[J m HofMarN]

To put it another way, we must endeavor to persevere. And that's coming from someone who actually has been published, who is like unto a shining god for the rest of us.

[Chyld]

Don't get excited yet, anyone, but I've had a pretty awesome idea:

Sound interesting?

[J m HofMarN]

I'd be most impressed if that link worked, Chyld. Maybe you can repost the stuff here?

[Chyld]

Certainly.

Hear me out...

Quite a few people I've spoken to lately have mentioned they might be writing books. Our own Marky Lazer is knee deep in his own opus, and even I might have a crack at it.

Someone suggested to me a while back, that I might want to not only proof-read all this, but publish it as well. I dismissed it as MSN talk, but its grown on me.

Wouldn't it rock so hard? My own publising company? OK, its only going to be a small business, but think about it.

I buy a really, REALLY good printer, some sticky back plastic, and lots of paper. I get an order, print out the relevant book, rattle off a cover, laminate it, bind the book, glue on the cover, and send it off!

And this would help our small-scale authors, by getting their books into the public eye, and maybe even garnering the attention of the big publishers!

My ethics are as follows: After extracting the nessersary costs for printing, binding, etc, the author will take absolutly nothing less than 40% of the profit, although it'll most likely be upwards of 50%. The rights to a book remain with an author as long as they are with me, so no red tape to lacerate if a larger publishing company wants to take an author to the stars (although fat checks are always welcome). I'll work out the other legal jargon later,

What do we all think? An interesting plan, or a pipe dream?

And the problems I've already encountered:

Yeah, binding's the big sticking point. I've worked out how to attach the individual pages together, but its sticking the cover on is going to be a nightmare. What glue?

And distribution is going to be handled by me. Package it up, and ship it off wherever its going. Sorted.

Marketing is going to be the sticking point. Buying advertising on any website that'll look twice is a start. Buying a domain name for it is another. Not sure what else to do apart from that.

EDIT: I suppose, in hindsight, I shouldn't really link to the Members Only section of the website...

This post has been edited by Chyld: 01 March 2005 - 07:39 AM

[Icey]

That's actually a very groovy idea Chyld. If I ever do finish the Fallen and you get your Publishing house off the ground I would be honoured to be published by you. I have some InDesign experience so if I could help in anyway, that would be rocking.

[Chyld]

Don't think its going to happen too soon, mind, like I said, I need a good printer, and I see that being about £100 at the extreme cheapest. If I can work out the logistics of the project in time, I intend to start publishing, promoting, etc, in about September.

[J m HofMarN]

I really wouldn't mind going in with you on that and depending on how much cash I have I'll try to help out with the costs to get it set up. However before you attempt this it might be a good idea to try to make a book in the way that you plan to do so to see if its feasable. You'll need a printer that can write to both sides of a piece of paper, and you'll need slightly thicker paper for the cover. A local stationary store might be a good place to start looking and you can ask them about a discount for a business that would be a regular customer and buy in bulk.

If you can create something that bears a reasonable semblance to a book and display it I'll do what I can to help out on the financial end, not to mention giving you the rights to publish at least one of my novels.

You should start out only selling via the internet and let your authors do the marketing for the most part. I think if everyone on this forum who's interested in getting published could contribute a bit this could easily be a reality. Also, you're going to need an in-house editor and I'd definately suggest Slade as he's currently handling one of my novels. I think we can all try to work this thing out and kind of figure out what this supposed publishing company will look like, and I'm definately in favor of it. For now though try to make up a book to see if it can be done at all.