Chefelf.com Night Life: What does it mean to be a man? - Chefelf.com Night Life

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What does it mean to be a man? some help with my work...

#16 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 02:40 AM

Don't go attacking language, Ms. Corvax. It is simply a neutral medium. It is the people who use it negatively that are the problem. Language is a beautiful and wonderful thing that can allow one insight into another's very soul, record events, scribe laws, and build a multifaceted perception of a concept that can be interpereted differently by everyone who reads it.

Sorry, rantish there, but you should accuse the proper entity, not what the entity uses. I obviously love language, so I get a bit defensive when people knock it. Although you could just being bitter and sarcastic... In that case, just ignore me.
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#17 User is offline   Chyld Icon

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 09:47 AM

No, tis a fair point you've made. What with the media as it is, the youth look up to music stars, football players and film stars, none of which are ideal role models when you consider it.

EDIT: Didn't see there was a second page, was just replying to barend, I'll run off now...

This post has been edited by Chyld: 30 January 2005 - 09:48 AM

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#18 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 06:07 AM

I am not attacking the language, but it is a tool and it reflects the society, Slade. Too bad, thought, that the society is basically crooked. There is a whole branch of research called sociolinguistcs which studies the relationship between gender, class, position in society, education etc with the sort of language you are using. They are researching how “women speak less assertive than man”, how they “speak in softer tones”, “in general speak less than men” etc. Basically I consider such research as invention of chauvinists to support their point of view that women are in general inferior to men.

Because they usually forget about the cause and effect. It is not that women are “like that”, but they have been brought up like that. School especially contributes to such behaviour. Look at the following excerpt:

“Boys called out eight times as often as girls did. Teachers ignored the "raise your hand" rule. If a boy yelled out, the teacher usually praised his contribution. Girls who called out got reminders to raise their hands. Teachers valued boys' comments more than girls' comments. Teachers responded to girls with a simple nod or an OK, but they praised, corrected, helped, and criticized boys. Boys were encouraged to solve problems on their own, but teachers helped girls who were stuck on problems.” (Sadker, M., & Sadker, D. Failing at Fairness: How America's Schools Cheat Girls. New York: Touchstone Press, 1995).

So, Barend, the first thing to change “role models” would be to change the attitude of teachers towards girls and boys.
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#19 User is offline   revoltoncube Icon

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 06:43 AM

wow, now THATS good eatin'!

cheers for that peeps.

FYI Civilian, why would i pretend to do research? try to find a motive behind that...
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#20 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 09:29 AM

Idunno, maybe you are writing a BA or something. That bit is actually included in my BA thesis concerning language teaching. The conclusion was that it might be actually beneficial to have single sex classes...
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#21 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:54 PM

That's some good stuff Corvax: you are da man!

I have also heard it asserted in sociolinguistics that women, being more eager to climb socially than men are, tend to speak more "correctly," to use less vulagr langauage, and to try in general more than men to emulate the diction and mannerisms of academia, or of the more priveledged classes. I have also read that this "social reaching" peters out by the time people hit their mid-forties.


Revoltoncube: find a motive? Why and how would I do that? I don't even know you, but unless your research is into the attitudes and ideas of bloggers, then I'd say this is a pretty weak way to go about writing a paper.
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#22 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 11:32 PM

Madam Corvax you have a BSC (B.eng??) and a BA? Civillian has a couple degrees too. How much money do you people fork out for education!

I thought about going back and getting a degree in Arts. I would enroll in some courses that would make me sound (and write) smarter than I actually am.

Although I would not want to become a professional student. I know a couple people going back simply because they don't want to leave. They like campus life. For UBC students that means living off of falafels and gyros.
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#23 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 01:48 AM

Jordan, I have an equivalent of M.Eng. and I hope to become B.A. in June.
But I had good fortune to finish my first degree for free.

But I am not a professional student. I have a full time job and I do college on weekends. It is true that is does cost a bit, but I suppose it is still very cheap compared to the price of education in Canada.

Civilian, thanks for the comment. Yes, you are right about women being more correct and using less vulgar language, but sometimes I don't think is is necessarily a bad thing. smile.gif
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#24 User is offline   revoltoncube Icon

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:21 AM

lol

civ: its not like that! biggrin.gif I've got loadsa resouces here, I've done a tonne of research already! I'm just hearing other peoples views as well, you can't find everything you want to know in a textbook. My boss saw me on this forum and he thought it would be a idea to see what other people had to say.
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#25 User is offline   Jen Icon

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:40 AM

MC: I studied lingusitics undergrad, and I have to say, one of the subjects I found most interesting was the differences between men and women's speaking habits and what those differences meant in real terms. Because you're absolutely right -- men and women use language in totally different ways. For example, women tend to precede their comments with, "Well, this might be wrong, but" or "I'm not sure about this, but" -- it's a politeness mechanism, but it also has the effect of negating what one says. I do this -- when I go back and read my posts here, for example, as well as when I speak, and so do lots of women and yet not so many men. Deborah Tannen has written some really interesting books about it (here's what amazon has for her). Are you familiar with her stuff? (Full discolosure: she teaches at Georgetown, where I did my undergrad. So I might be biased towards her, but I think her stuff is fascinating.)

I have always resisted it for myself, but I think studies really do show that girls benefit tremendously from single-sex education. Something to think about imposing on my future kids ...
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#26 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 11:32 AM

Just got through reading this, so my response shall be a bit jumbled.

Very interesting reading. I quite liked Barend's post, but then again he always has an interesting way of making his points. The lack of good role models is something that's bothered me for awhile. Sadly, though, I doubt that a character based off my own values would be interesting to watch on TV. It really disturbs me when somebody praises me for doing something nice/polite/honourable. I just think holding a door for someone behind you(regardless of gender), or returning some money that somebody dropped, etc, would be general practice. Seems that it isn't.

Just a thought on the rolemodel thing, I would like to see a book written for teenagers about a teenager who DOESN'T get a girlfriend. It's like a cliche. Watch any teenager show, and no matter how much of a loser the main character is, they always find some girl who's attracted to him. Seeing as nobody would recognise the books we had to read in lower highschool that I'm specifically thinking of(and I won't list them as they're crap and not worth reading)I'd have to put Donnie Darko as a good example. The kid is fucked, and yet still has a girlfriend. Looking back at highschool, myself and the majority of my friends never had girlfriends. It just seems to be taken for granted that a girl will show up who's interested in them. Sorry, got a bit carried away.

The speech thing I found quite fascinating. I'd say that teenagers tend to emulate grown ups in their speech. I've always seen women to be more sophisticated, and hence young girls would try to emulate that. Men are classed by modern society as animals, and as such boys tend to get into the burping and farting competitions, or verbal equivelant there-of. I generally prefer to talk with a more varied vocabulary. It's just that much easier to get your point across, assuming people understand the words I'm using wink.gif

I agree with Jordan on that when you're told to be a man, it's generally in contrast to being a boy, not a woman. Then again, I'm don't notice quite so much chauvanism in society then MC does. To be the truth, I tend to pick up a lot more negative images of men in modern society then of women. Men are generally shown to be stupid and incompetent when placed beside their wise and knowlegeable better half, on pretty much every add. This is supposed to be humouress, and we are expected to be a sport and put up with it. Generally, an insult that flies for men, would be ripped to shreds if applied to a woman in the same context. It's like the media are afraid of the feminists, so they suck up to them by making women smarter in all their ads.

Wow, that was longer then I expected. Sorry about any typos, and I know the sentence structure is whack, but it was mostly just random ranting.
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#27 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 04:31 PM

QUOTE
I agree with Jordan on that when you're told to be a man, it's generally in contrast to being a boy, not a woman.


Oh, me too. I think it's used that way. Curiously enough, though, RIGHT AFTER Jordan insisted on that, he also said this:

QUOTE
If I wanted to come out and compare a guy to a women I'd just say it. You're a woman, you're a bitch, you have no penis, you're gay. And when I say those things it's not because it's lame to be a female, but because if you're a guy it's lame to act as one.



So, apparently, you can insult a man by comparing him with women. So, "Be a man" might also mean "stop acting like a woman." So I dare saay Jordan is of two minds here.


I agree with the idea that "bitch" means different things for men and for women, but I don't think when a woman is called a bitch it's because she's aggressive. Assholes I have know have called such women "dykes" or "man-haters," "penis-slicers," etc. I have been known to use that last one, though only in jest. I haven't, Allah be praised, ever known many of those super-aggressive women that get called that. And no, no one I know has ever had his penis sliced, touch wood.

Back on topic: I think when women are called "bitches," it's when they are arguing needlessly about petty details, or when they are in a general pissy mood. I have heard men as well as women use the word in this context. I think when men are called "bitch," it's when they act weak or cowardly.

Also, it might be noted that pretty much anyone can call a woman a bitch, but the sorts of people who call men bitches are usually aggressive guys trying to pick a fight. Or guys joking within the limited circle of their friends.

One last: I have also observed that there are men who use "bitch" to mean "woman." Like white trash and wannabe gang bangers.

Don't know if any of this is on topic anymore.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 01 February 2005 - 04:31 PM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#28 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 09:00 PM

QUOTE
So, apparently, you can insult a man by comparing him with women. So, "Be a man" might also mean "stop acting like a woman." So I dare saay Jordan is of two minds here.


What I was trying to say is, if I wanted to insult a man by comparing him to a women, then I'd just come out and say it.

You're a bitch (comparrison to women)

If I wanted to insult a man by comparing him to a boy, then I'd use a different tactic.

You're no man ( comparrison to boy)

And I don't think it's insulting to be a women. I do think it's insulting to be a women if you are a man.


But many people probably don't see the difference. The english language is so vague and open to interpretation, it's mind boggling.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 01 February 2005 - 09:02 PM

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#29 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 11:02 PM

It's always interesting breaking the sterotypes. I had no girlfriend in high school. I was a "loser", to use high school terms, although I couldn't care less. I was much happier not worrying about what everyone else thought, going about being myself, etc. I am not assertive, although I don't speak softly.

I think the point of stuff like that is we want to watch an ideal world to forget our own for a small time. So all of the actresses and actors are attractive, the good guy always wins, nobody dies, and we all live happily ever after. Of course, it isn't always this way, but much is.

And it's a damned shame that society is still horribly biased, but should we be separating the genders or getting people to treat them with equal value in the same setting?
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#30 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 06:49 AM

QUOTE (Jen @ Feb 1 2005, 10:40 AM)
.Deborah Tannen has written some really interesting books about it Are you familiar with her stuff? 


Well, no, I am not. I would love to read more about the topic, though, thanks for the link. We had it just as a one class during linguistics, and I also find it fascinating. I even started making a conscious effort not to say so much things like "IMHO" and insist on my point in conversations. I am just speculating, but it helped me a lot not to think too much what other people think of me. I believe women in general are just too self-consious. So even if I make an idiot of myself (which I often do), I just shrug my shoulders.

I just try not to swear too much.

QUOTE (Jen @ Feb 1 2005, 10:40 AM)
I have always resisted it for myself, but I think studies really do show that girls benefit tremendously from single-sex education. Something to think about imposing on my future kids ...


QUOTE (Slade @ Feb 1 2005, 11:02 PM)
And it's a damned shame that society is still horribly biased, but should we be separating the genders or getting people to treat them with equal value in the same setting?


Well, I really agree about separating boys and girls at least for some classes. Definitely for science, where it has been proven that girls actually perform better, because they are not hindered by stereotypes that girls are less smart in maths and physics. And gee, I could do without boys teasing girls in class (for example making rude noises, haha. )

And just one experience which is very typical, I think. Last summer I went to my parents, there is a lovely lake much frequented by holiday makers. There was a family - wife, husband, boy and girl. The boy did not want to swim beyond the line marking the shallow water and his father was telling him "well, you really must, because that's life, you know, you have to meet the challenge".
And the girl was really eager to try to swim but she was being stopped by her mother. I just find it very sad.


QUOTE (SimeSublime @ Feb 1 2005, 11:32 AM)
Then again, I'm don't notice quite so much chauvanism in society then MC does.  To be the truth, I tend to pick up a lot more negative images of men in modern society then of women. 


Sime, you live in Australia. Your society is different, I think it is definitely less chauvinist than in my country. How much my country is backwards, I can give one example. During the parliamentary debate about equal status of men and women the members from right wing parties were rolling with laughter.

Then again, I did not notice the chauvinism when I was at the university. Only after I started to work it got to me that I have to be at least three times better than any man in the company to get notice and praise, and I am still stuck with doing menial jobs because I am a woman.
I just got used to it. Another sad thing.
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