Chefelf.com Night Life: What does it mean to be a man? - Chefelf.com Night Life

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What does it mean to be a man? some help with my work...

#1 User is offline   revoltoncube Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 07:02 AM

hey anyone intrigued enough to read this,

yeah, so i need sonme help with some research I'm doing for my job.
I need to find some descriptions of "What does it mean to be a man?"
its for young kids (10-14), because we've found that if a celebrity isn't 'buff' or 'hard' then this age group will come up with the same phrase for them everytime, gay/queer. This leads us to believe that they need a 'manly' role model, so what DOES it mean to be manly?

so I would like to hear what you've got to say about this subject...post away.
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#2 User is offline   Chyld Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 08:27 AM

My opinion of the 10-14 demographic is constantly degrading, currently between "I'll kill them later..."

As far as I can tell, "manly" means "unfeasable muscles, obscene inability to show emotion, deep voice, massive media coverage"
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#3 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:56 AM

Yeah, Chyld said it about right.

And note how those stupid little children are already both stereotyping people and implying that being gay/queer is a negative thing (if it was otherwise, it wouldn't be a rampant insult in today's community). Ah, the sweet smell of society...

Who's been putting the idea into kids heads that because males don't possess rampant testosterone or say, read instead of watch football, that they are homosexual anyway? *peers around to find someone to point a finger at* I'm probably one of the least sterotypically "male" people I know, and yet I am definately heterosexual. So you lose, 10-14 year olds.

What it means to be a man for me is to have a penis and see nothing wrong with scratching when something itches. biggrin.gif Messing around on that last part.

If you said something like "What gender role should a male be attempting to fill in today's western society?" My answer would be different, of course... Since it's a different question... I'm done.

This post has been edited by Slade: 28 January 2005 - 10:05 AM

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#4 User is offline   revoltoncube Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 10:30 AM

thanks for the 'helpful' posts there, all posts welcome.

er...? well its to find a way to connect with these youths in theatre w/o finding some macho steriotypical alpha male figure that they all love.

i do agree that its strange how some-ones sexuality can be used as an insult, i believe the reason is the fact that they wouldn't want to be called 'homosexual' them selves so they use it as a degrading word... very strange indeed...

I'd like to hear more views..
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#5 User is offline   Jen Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 10:59 AM

Well, kids between ages 10-14 are trying to build their identity -- it's the beginning of adolescence, when physically your boyd undergoes tremendous changes and when emotionally and sexually you are beginning to figure out who you are. This is why, often, kids that age are what can clinically be described as "abrasive little shits." But they can also be funny, creative and really smart -- it's when they do a lot of the work that goes into formulating who they will be.

That's the reason, as far as everything I've read goes, for the hypermasculine behavior that's typical of that age, the ironcast division between being "hard" and being "a pussy," between being "tough," and being a "fag." That's why so many of the quieter boys, the dreamier ones, have such a rough time during early adolescence -- because while they are boys and they may be just as heterosexual as the "boyish" boys, there is no room to accpet the variance. Girls of that age who act tomboyish have a lot of the same problems -- they must be lesbians, right? It's what makes it such a hard age.

Revoltancube, if you're really interested in the subject, there are some really good books on gender identity and formation in kids that age that might be helpful -- more helpful than me regurgitating their points!
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#6 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 02:15 PM

Please don't hate me by the end of this post.


When I was a teenager, the exp​ression "Be a Man" always meant one of two things: 1) Be brave; or 2) Keep your word. It had nothing to do with the awkward likes-big-muscles phase that a lot of guys go through from 10-16, and that justifies the entire culture of Pro Wrestling and some 80s Metal.

What I found interesting at that age was that there was no equivalent for women. We'd hear "A woman has a right to changer her mind" thrown around as a euphamism for "women have no requirement to be honest." If a "man" failed to keep his word, he was reminded to "Be a Man," and if he did not relent, well then he was probably "gay." So built in to male role stamping early on is a necessary distrust of women. Well, and fags.


So yeah: "Manly Role Model:" anyone honest and brave, and naturally being a bit attractive or intelligent could not hurt (so long as you're not into math). "Gay:" George Bush Jr, for starting wars against non-enemies and changing his mind daily about the reasons behind the wars. And for having that faggoty nervous laugh of his.


PS: I like women, I don't think you're all dishonest, and yadda yadda.

PPS: revoltoncube, this is a forum where people discuss ideas. You don't have to pretend you're doing research for your job; just bring something up, and talk about it. Real research, by the way, starts out just like Laura said, with reading published works and well-funded studies, not with trolling randon forums.

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#7 User is offline   Jen Icon

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Post icon  Posted 28 January 2005 - 03:18 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jan 28 2005, 07:15 PM)
Real research, by the way, starts out just like Laura said, with reading published works and well-funded studies ...


Further support to my theory that Laura and I should join forces as one posting unit, the LauraJen! laugh.gif

Civ brings up an interesting point -- I think (although I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it) that boys are instructed to "be a man!" a lot, meaning, as he says, be brave or take responsibility for your actions. You know, "Come on, no crying, take it like a man: it's just a little compound fracture." The association of "being a man" with a) not crying cool.gif showing courage/take the lead is one that I suspect is drilled into little boys from a very early age. I don't think anyone has ever said to me, "Hey, be a woman!" but you do get lots of instruction as to what is "ladylike" and what is not. But we're talking about men here.

I have to say, while I knew that construction of gender identity often means opposing traits -- "Men are strong and women are weak," etc --the "men are honest and women are not" idea is not one that immediately came to mind. I was a kid a decade later than Civ was, but that was never something I heard when I was a kid.

Of course, maybe no one said it to me because I was a dirty lying girl! yell.gif

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Edit: typo

This post has been edited by Jen: 28 January 2005 - 03:18 PM

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#8 User is offline   floppydisk Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 04:13 PM

Really, what boys that age want is to be accepted by the group and to have friends.(I know, I'm 15) If they feel challenged, or threatened, they feel obligated to turn it into a confrontation to protect thier reputation, because they feel that letting someone talk about them without them saying "NO", would make them what the person called them. I'm over that now. One kid today called me an ass to my face and I just shrugged.
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#9 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 05:37 PM

Kudos to you. School only goes uphill from there.

I've never been subjected to the sterotype that women are dishonest (or that this is excusable). I've heard the saying that "men are incapable of understanding women," and its converse, but I'd like to think that it's not the case. Although the "be a man" thing has come up. I've been called "womanly" in a negative sense for being me before, sometimes in jest, sometimes actually as an attempt to insult me. This is usually following me doing something outside of my proper gender role though.
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#10 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 08:52 AM

What you're saying just confirms to me that language is just another tool of sexism and chauvinism

Be a man, means you are not a man by default if you're male, but you have to strive for it.
But if you don't strive enough, then it means what that you're something inferior.

So who are you - a woman then, right, the ultimate inferior race invented only so the male population can fee superior to something?

In Polish there is a saying "a man's decision" meaning take a brave, risky decision - in default women are of course incapable of taking such decision- pining, whining, week creatures.

But I am glad some people like Jen don't have these asociations any more. Perhaps there is a hope after all.
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#11 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 03:48 PM

No, you're wrong Madam.

Being a man is opposite to being a cowardice or weak boy. I've never once heard the saying and ever in my mind thought of "he must be a women if not a man!"

I've heard worse, I've heard men actually refered to as ladies! Because women are weak and pathetic creatures in every which way, an no man wants to be associated to them! Na, it has more to do with phyiscal strength and the accusition of not having a penis.
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#12 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 04:56 PM

No, you're wrong, Jordan.

I don't know if Jen is right about this being related to age, either.

I am pretty damn certain that when a 15-year-old boy fails to stand up for himself he's called a "little bitch," just loike he was back in the 70s and 80s.

I admit I have no idea whether kids make a big deal any more about keeping promises. Back in the day (before any of our times), men would rather lose money than break their word. I see from reality tv and such that this may be disappearing from pop culture. And yeah, it's been a long time since I heard someone say "A girl has a right to change her mind."
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#13 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:14 PM

Just so I'm not misunderstood:

Men may insult men not only by suggesting they may be gay, but by calling them women. I say this because I observe it, not because I think men are better than women.

Honesty was long considered a "manly" trait, and heroes of fiction were stamped with bravery and honesty. It's still pretty big, but lots of stories sympathize with heroes who lie and cheat. So Jen may be right on that there half.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#14 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:47 PM

No, you're wrong Civillian.

Look at any culture. The point where a man becomes a boy is usually regarded as a bigger deal than when a girl becomes a women. Being a man is the opposite of being a boy. We don't call 12 year old kids "men" we call them boys.

A man is what all boys hope to become. A man can take care of a family, provide for them, and in times of danger act as the protector.

Back in the day it was men who fought, not boys. Didn't you see braveheart? Boyish william wallace was so upset when he found out war was for men, and that he could not go along with his father and brother. Things are different now, back then at 16 you were considered a man.

If I wanted to come out and compare a guy to a women I'd just say it. You're a woman, you're a bitch, you have no penis, you're gay. And when I say those things it's not because it's lame to be a female, but because if you're a guy it's lame to act as one.

Men are more seasoned, advanced then boys are. That is what is insulting, being the opposite of the above. "you are a man"= Strong, seasoned, provider. "you are not a man"=not as strong, not as seasoned, and you can't provide.


Of course the term is used loosely. It could mean anything now. Hip Hop rappers call eachother "the man" when they rhyme two like words in a witty manner. But be honest with yourself and admit that I'm right. pirate.gif

This post has been edited by Jordan: 29 January 2005 - 05:55 PM

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#15 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 11:29 PM

to further perpetuate Madam corvax's point...

i think the term bitch is an interestin annomoly in the less than formal use of the english language...

if a man is a bitch, he's weak and not agressive enough.
if a woman is a bitch, she's harsh and too agressive...

bitch is used in a way to associate people with members of the opposite sex...
either that or it's gender-class defining medium in which those who fail to live up to the expectations of their gender, are placed in this limbo of classification.

however, as long as boys and girls interact leading up to peuberty, it is obvious that men are superior in strength and stamina, and are incouraged to be loud and obnoxious. after pueberty... everyone realized that girls are yummy, and tables are turned... some boys become intraverts as they are intimdated by women, because their mere existance has the ability to tap into those boys emotions and chemical drives, while they find themselves avoiding them out of fear of humiliation, especially in the pressence of the boys who develope more agressive tendancies who go for the girls, and do stupid things to impress them...

i think this is really bad because those girls are encouraged through thier experience in high school to be attracted to the agressive males.

also i think there are no really good role models for men and women any more...

our action heros are too self confident and full of themselves... and while they may pull this off with charm, millions of boys will emulate them without the charisma or purpose that justifies such characters...
also rock stars are driven by cash, advertise pepsi and sports gear and write crap music, and every second RNB song sounds like it's promoting date rape...

womens only role models these days seem to only be pop stars who marry for money and are as mean as off cream to any one without money... all these songs on the radio about 'spending your man's money' and shit like that... it's pretty scary stuff...

i think i'll just get a hunting rifle when i'm old, and hunt the next generation for sport... if you think the last generation screwed the planet, wait till we see these assholes in action.


PS
i'm not sure if that was even on topic in the end... but it was a pretty good rant in the end...
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