[Hannibal]

No this is not another one of my conspiracy theories, but found on starwars.com itself.

The question here is, when we think of the human race, in other words, homo sapiens, us, do we have a 'racial stereotype?' Lucas sense of "race" is racist itself, you don't even need to apply conspiractorial speculations about cryptofascism. Lucas has used his sense of so-called "races"(a misnomer for years) here on earth to depict his "races" of the galaxy.

What the hell do I mean? Technically speaking, scientifically of course, "Jews" and "Blacks" are not "races" all of us talking monkeys are classified homo sapiens.

but some foolish homosapiens would like to suggest that jews are money grubbing secretive scrooges, and asians are sly, betraying, suicidal camera manufacturers...

Now, read this from StarWars.com:


"If there's money to be had, a Neimoidian will be nearby. So says a common spacer stereotype, justified by the species' reputation for excelling at business. While Neimoidians are generally a cowardly lot, in financial issues, they can be bold and aggressive.
It was this instinct that led them to the command of the galaxy-spanning Trade Federation, a vast consortium of business interests that controls interstellar shipping in the Galactic Republic. When the government sought to tax outlying trade routes, the Neimoidians reacted with a brazen blockade of the peaceful world of Naboo. That the skittish Neimoidians could undertake so bold a move is remarkable; some suspect an unseen force manipulating events behind the scenes. "
http://www.starwars....dian/index.html


Lucas is branding an entire "RACE" (of his own creation, but regardless...) of people as money grubbing and so on...Can there be a rebellious Neimodian, or are they all filthy greedy bastards? Is this racist? Sure it fucking is.

My supposition, it that either intentional or unintentional, RACISM is inherent in Star Wars and it is not a "subject" that is "explored" it is part of the fiber of the storytelling. Filthy Jawas, Walking Carpets, greedy Neimodians, condemning ENTIRE races of PEOPLE(though they be nonhman and fictional) and conveniently STEREOTYPInG THE ENTIRE LOT.

Oh yes, the JEDI Excuse and Argument will surely come in the next post. Let me remind you that Jedi are NOT representatives of various alien races, but "SPECIAL" genetically/midichlorian rich "CHOSEN ONES" who have left their homeworlds as children and not a united races 'r us. They are apparently the specially "chosen" by god, the cosmos or their evolution and are apparently "better" then the dirty filthy "root race" they belong to.

Why does Lucas have to train children to see RACES? When in reality there is only one?

He isn't exploring racism, he's indoctrinating it, by in suggesting in his descriptions of various aliens characters in his films, that ENTIRE races are the same. They're all the same. You can depend on it, that a Neimodian will "jew" you. A Jawa will steal your droids like gypsies, a gungan will annoy and spit in your food...

Broad racial generalizations?

Thats what its called!

[Chiefelf]

Right.....are you on crack?

[Hannibal]

Brilliant response newbie.

Hoffmarn would have a better line.

[Chiefelf]

Whatever, thats cool.

[J m HofMarN]

Oh come on Hannibal you've already done Star Wars to death. If we're going to have to deal with your madness we may as well have some fun. That's why I've teamed up with FOX studios to create the Crazy Conspiracy show. You'll be the only contestant and you'll have one hour to come up with a conspiracy theory relating two different topics that seem to have absolutely nothing to do with eachother! Today's challenge:

You have one hour to draw parallels between the American invasion of Panama and... The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck. Hop to it.

[Helena]

Er... but the alien species in Star Wars are different races. No, it doesn't mean that all members of those 'races' are the same, but it does mean that humans may well perceive them as such. After all, in real life other species can perceive differences in each other that humans find impossible to see, and vice versa.

I don't like the way Lucas gives some alien races the characteristics of human racial stereotypes, any more than you do - but I honestly don't think he's a fascist, just a moron. What's more, even if he is a facist, I don't really care all that much. Even if Star Wars does contain a hidden pro-facist message, if that message is so well-hidden that virtually no one can actually see it then how can it possibly be effective?

As far as I'm aware, not one single person in the history of the world has ever been converted to fascism or Naziism by watching Star Wars. You know who does promote fascism? Groups like the British National Party, who play on people's fears of the unknown, of being 'swamped' by immigrants and of threats to their way of life, in order to stir up hatred and violence. If you really care about fighting racism, why not go after these people rather than wasting your time searching for hidden facist messages in fantasy stories?

[Chefelf]

I feel that this is not a trait exclusive to Lucas but very prevalent in the Sci-Fi genre as a whole. Broad sweeping generalizations are made because the world (or universe) created by my Sci-Fi authors is so vast. This is why we often see entire races that act a certain way and entire planets that have one climate (the forest moon of Endor, the ice planet Hoth, the desert planet Tattoine, etc.).

I agree that it seems the text written by official Lucasfilm pen at Starwars.com does come off as sounding racist (against a race that does not exist) but I think it more prominently shows a lack of creativity rather than the presence of racist ideas.

It's easy to come up with a planet that has one climate (ice, desert, forest). It's easy to come up with an entire race that has one chief characteristic (greed, evil, kindness). It's hard to come up with worlds and races as diverse and varied as you would find here on Earth.

This is why Watto says: "Mind tricks don't work on Toydarians, only money." Apparently his entire race/species is just as greedy and money hungry as he is because he is the embodiment of his race's personality.

In a truly great fleshed out science fiction (or fantasy) world we would see both sides of it. The Toydarians, the Nemoidians and the Hutts would have varied personality. There would exist the possibility that there could be a nice, friendly Hutt that went around helping people. There would exist the possibility that there was an evil bastard Ewok that went around stealing the other Ewoks' possesions. There would exit the possibility that there could be a wookie who was a complete wuss and was scared of fighting.

However we aren't presented with this kind of world. Instead we see individual groups of aliens that all act according to their specific race's set list of characteristics, coming from their planets that only contain one specific climate.

In the 1950's, when the genre was still new and relatively unexplored, I think these issues would not have mattered. However, in 2005 -- at this late stage in the game -- I would like to think that everyone (not just Lucas) could do just a little better.

[Helena]

I feel that this is not a trait exclusive to Lucas but very prevalent in the Sci-Fi genre as a whole.  Broad sweeping generalizations are made because the world (or universe) created by my Sci-Fi authors is so vast.  This is why we often see entire races that act a certain way and entire planets that have one climate (the forest moon of Endor, the ice planet Hoth, the desert planet Tattoine, etc.).

Yes, this is true - look at the Klingons, Vulcans and Ferengi in Star Trek, for example. Like I said, this can be explained to some extent by the fact that they are supposed to be different species, and when people see a group that's 'alien' to them they tend to notice their similarities rather than their differences. But I do agree that it's taken to unnecessary extremes.

In a truly great fleshed out science fiction (or fantasy) world we would see both sides of it. The Toydarians, the Nemoidians and the Hutts would have varied personality. There would exist the possibility that there could be a nice, friendly Hutt that went around helping people. There would exist the possibility that there was an evil bastard Ewok that went around stealing the other Ewoks' possesions. There would exit the possibility that there could be a wookie who was a complete wuss and was scared of fighting.

KOTOR does this to some extent (I may not have mentioned how much I love that game ). For instance, we see that the Jawas show respect and gratitude to those who help them, that the Sand People can be honourable and solve things without violence, and that not all the Selkath are aloof, uptight and unfriendly to humans. We see a wide variety of personalities among the Wookiees (Zaalbar versus his evil brother, for example) and amongst other races such as the Twi'leks and Rodians. I think there was even supposed to be a friendly Hutt, but that presumably got cut out for reasons of space.

What's more, we also see the other side of the coin - that many alien races such as the Wookiees and Selkath often make unfair generalizations about humans. Juhani admits that to her most humans seem quarrelsome and prejudiced, but also that she's met many who aren't. It drove me crazy the way most of the Wookiees automatically assumed you were going to screw them over, but it occured to me that that's the same way humans look at the Hutts...

[CowboyCurtis]

You know, I hate Lucas enough, but not enough to call him a racists. That's some wacky stuff, Hannibal.

[Chefelf]

KOTOR does this to some extent (I may not have mentioned how much I love that game ). For instance, we see that the Jawas show respect and gratitude to those who help them, that the Sand People can be honourable and solve things without violence, and that not all the Selkath are aloof, uptight and unfriendly to humans. We see a wide variety of personalities among the Wookiees (Zaalbar versus his evil brother, for example) and amongst other races such as the Twi'leks and Rodians. I think there was even supposed to be a friendly Hutt, but that presumably got cut out for reasons of space.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Part of what made KOTOR great is that you had the option to attack and slaughter an entire race/group (i.e. the Sandpeople). At first they did seem like mindless savages.

However, you also have the option to speak with them, learn from them, join their clan and help them out. You have the option to learn their history through speaking with them and their historians. When you're fighting them off in the beginning it's amazing how annoying they are and how much you just want to kill them.

When you decide to help them and learn from them it's amazing how interesting they are and how your view of them changes. This is pretty basic stuff but pretty lacking in Sci Fi for the most part.

Maybe someone should send George Bush a copy of KOTOR.

[J m HofMarN]

"What! Men running around in the desert with robes on? Daggonit its some kinda terroist trainin game! Laura! Laura! Get muh gun!"

[civilian_number_two]

Why STAR TREK is allowed to get away with it ("it" being the practice of created races with genetic drives) is that STAR TREK originally was a morality play. Roddenberry wantd to make a comment on the Cold War, so he put togetherhis perfect, united race of Man and pitted it against all of its former vices. Sure, the Vulcans represented logic and reason at the cost of compassion, and the Klingons aggressiveness, the Romulans the dark side of logic and reaon, diabolical cunning (even though they stupidly fell for Spock's "Vulcan Death Grip" ruse). Eventually aliens came along to represent greed, and others lust. The point was to draw attention to what humans do with these emotions/drives, by comparing the Everyman hero against these traits in their pure form.

Now of course, STAR TREK is the teats and ass show, but in its day, this sort of writing was in line with a tradition that runs back centuries.

STAR WARS using this sort of line is just laziness. I know Hannibal would like to find a racist agenda, and sure, Lucas may be as racist as the next guy. But frankly I am more inclined to think he was motivated only by getting out a half-assed project close to deadline. He saw how STAR TREK did it, and copied it, minus the motivation.

It's of course worth pointing out that the first three movies didn't have any of this; the idea of genetic personality traits (even HUTT becomes a race of gangsters!) is introduced only in THE PHANTOM MENACE.

So this awkward race-trait nonsense isn't actually in STAR WARS. It's in these other movies, sure, but these other movies are not STAR WARS.


PS: JM, This business of proclaiming everything Hannibal says is nonsense is as annoying as any of the actual nonsense Hannibal ever posted. This is a perfectly legitimate thread, and at least as interesting as "nine new things I didn't like about the clothes in LOTR"). No apology necessary; just read or ignore, please.

PPS: Chiefelf, I am on to you!

[Helena]

I'm sorry, but I think saying "well, it's all right for Star Trek but not for Star Wars" is a bit hypocritical. Whatever Rodenberry's ostensible purpose in portraying the aliens this way, the result is exactly the same: aliens who apparently have only one culture and personality type per race (at least from our perspective). As I explained, it's far from implausible that humans might view aliens like that, but it's still lazy - and I don't see why Star Trek, which is supposedly 'serious' science fiction, should be able to get away with it any more than Star Wars.

[Supes]

PPS: Chiefelf, I am on to you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You noticed it too. Why am I not surprised

In relation to the topic, however, I tend to agree with Civ. in the reasoning. I don't thinks it's right that races be dsplayed with singular traits, but I really think that it's a part of Lucas' lapse in creativity.

It was not necessarily correct for Roddenberry to create these singular trait species either, but I certainly will acknowledge the intent behind it. Lucas cannot claim this. There is a certain amount of holding up of the mirror and checking out our nasty reflection in Star Trek and that, in part was it's intent. Still it would have been nice in all the years that it ran plus the movies if they had tried to explore the individuality within a species. I suppose to some extent they did this with 7 of 9, but still that was a long time coming.

[Just your average movie goer]

I'm with Civilian Number Two on this one. I think you've got an interesting thread here, Hannibal.

And JM, mate. You're a good guy and all, but I think we can cut Hannibal a break here. This is an interesting point he's making.

Now, I don't think Lucas is doing this because he's racist. He's doing it because he's an idiot.

Civilian Number Two has beaten me to this ~ but the problem didn't really exist in the original movies.

Having Tatooine controlled by the Hutts however, and having the Hutts all being gangsters, was just a stupid thing from Episode I. And I think most of us agree with Civilian that Episode I is not a Star Wars movie.

On a little tangent, having Tatooine controlled by the Hutts was another example of Lucas taking elements of the original movies and blowing them out of proportion in the prequels.

Examples.

There was a gangster called Jabba the Hutt, who lived on Tatooine -> Tatooine is controlled by evil Hutts.

Jabba, who lived on Tatooine, had slaves -> Tatooine is full of slavers.

Yoda said Luke was too old to begin the training -> Anakin, a 12 year old is now too old to begin the training too.

Just another item from the endless list of problems with the prequels.