[civilian_number_two]

And civilian, reserve judgement till it comes out, it sounds like a quirky movie and could be very good.

Sure it could be. In fact, it was.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0061578/

It was sorta cool when Tarantino borrowed from lesser-known foreign films and Scorsese documentaries, since his dialogue was so tight and he found ways to make the material new and edgy. But when he decided to remake an "Alfred hitchcock Presents" episode for FOUR ROOMS, I got a bit nervous that he'd run out of ideas. Now he wants essentially to remake a popular American film whose most recent sequel was a tv series in 1988.

That's my point. Tarantino is now officially no more than a nerdy Brian DePalma

PS: For 3 bonus points: What other Robert Aldrich fim inspired which element of PULP FICTION?

[use the force]

the thing i never liked in kill bill was the lack of common sense. these are assasins right?this is not the dark ages fight with more advanced weaponery. if the bride was trying to assisinate me all i would have to do is pull out a gun and shoot her in the face. at least in star wars lightsabers serve a purpose, to provide defense from blasters. a sword cant block a bullet so why use them, if the only reason if your using them is to have honor then you shouldnt be an assasin. imagine if one guy was carrying a pistol in that little japenese club. that would make a lot more sense that sending 100 guys to fight on girl who killed them anyway. i have a better idea, why didnyt everybody just chuck their sword at her at the same time.

[HK 47]

Why didn't Tarantino set in Beijing? It was filmed in Beijing. All the guys wore masks because they were Chinese, not Japanese. And what Japanese "swordsmans" that did exist in the movie can be classified as chambara, a degoratory term for the fake, stylistic, samurai sword fighting in the gawd-awful Japanese TV flicks.

I thought they wore masks as an homage to Kato in Green Hornet. It is after all the theme-song they use in that scene. I think Tarantino was actually going for the "fake, stylistic, samurai sword fighting in the gawd-awful Japanese TV flicks". Kill Bill was inspired by movies like that. It is apparent in many more ways than just in the fighting scenes. Don't try looking for realism or good taste in a Tarantino movie. It's the Tarantino-verse, a wild collage of sampling the movies he grew up with.

Anyway njamilla I wanted to ask you, do you have any examples of brilliant and realistic japanese swordplay in movies? Which are, by the connaisseurs, considered to be the best?

[njamilla]

Anyway njamilla I wanted to ask you, do you have any examples of brilliant and realistic japanese swordplay in movies? Which are, by the connaisseurs, considered to be the best?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brilliant Japanese swordplay? My criteria for judging a sword fight in a movie is how it works in the film, and then I go for the technicalities and style. If I want real fencing I go to a salle d'armes or a dojo. If I want good fighting in a movie, it's got to help tell the story and not detract from it. I find all the attack parry sword play boring. My preference is for realistic blood scenes so that people understand that sword fighting is not just fun and games. Obviously, Hollywood and most film makers (as well as many sword fight choreographers) want the romantic flare. And funny as this may seem, I'm not at all versed in sword fights in samurai movies. I'll watch almost any movie at least once for the sword fight, but I'm not by any means a connaiseur.

But, here's my short list of recent films off the top of my head of movies that impressed me in some way that it's worth making a comment. It's not a list of tecnically good swordfighting, however. And please to don't string me up for omitting some movie.

Princess Bride: Great duel between Wesley and Ingo. Trampoline part was fake, but everything else, especially the references to fencing manuals, was part of a well choreographed duel. The two men's technical deficiencies are far outweighed by the feel for the fight.

Bourne Identity: There's no sword fighting, but a great way to show effective techniques. You don't need to see the techniques, simply to allude to them. The choreographer, who was also mentioned in that newspaper article, did those fights.

Lord of the Rings: I finally figured out the block and slam away technique that is the core of the sword fight training for the extras (but also seen in the principals choreography). I'm more enamored of the mass battles because I'm fascinated by Swiss pike formations.

Duellists: I love the realism of the fights as the protagonist and antagonist engage in duels through their life times. Great choreography which shows the tension.

Troy: Loved the scene in the first battle -- 1 hit one strike. That's authentic sword fighting in the sense, that the purpose of the fight is to get the job done. Duels only exist when there is a parity in fighting ability. Achilles dispaches people left and fight, which is very true of real sword fighting. It's ability (as well as some luck) which allows swordsmen to survive battles. Most people on a battle field have basic training, but the best swordsmen survive. That's why the nobility remained dominant in Sparta, Japan, and in Feudal Europe. Guns, which could kill the best swordsmen with no training, allowed plebians to take over.

OK, that's it for now. I could spend all day writing this. Would love your opinions. BTW, I just read John Clements "Renaissance Swordsmanship." Great book, from my point of view. He's pretty succinct in his explanations and drawings, which are all obvious to me because of my background.

[HK 47]

And funny as this may seem, I'm not at all versed in sword fights in samurai movies. I'll watch almost any movie at least once for the sword fight, but I'm not by any means a connaiseur.

Alright. Reason I asked was that I thought that you might know about obscure yet amazing japanese flicks with great sword fighting. You know, as a more realistic alternative to the "chambara" style fighting you mentioned.

To me the style of swordplay should fit the style of the movie and have meaning, which means emotionally evocative swordplay. As I really don't know much about "real" swordplay that is the only criteria I can use. To the list of movies you mentioned I'd like to add The Four Musketeers duel between Michael York and Christopher Lee. D'Artagnans desperation and the hatred between the two makes that duel look very dangerous.

[J m HofMarN]

Civilian- Say what you will but I loved the entirety of Four Rooms.

NJamilla- I really think you're right. Even the best and most breathtaking swordfight can fall flat if it lacks plausibility or emotion. From what I've heard much of kill bill was contrived to give Uma Thurman an excuse to hit things with a Katana. And the PT was even worse because they didnt even try to give people reasons. At least in KB she could say "Argh, some guy raped me for some reason, I must brain him" whereas in TPM what we get is "Oh look, a gentleman with too much make-up. I suppose we had better start hacking off eachothers limbs."

[njamilla]

No hidden gems from me. Collecting old movies, or culling them from video store shelves is a life time task in itself. Everyone tells me what movies I should watch. And I usually get burned. I look younger than I am and I kicked myself in the ass for watching American Pie on someone's recommendation that it was one of the best movies she had ever seen. She was just out of college.

There's something to be said for the art of filming the sword fight, or the fight in general. After coming out of the movie Hero, I made the comment that it was a great sword fight movie without any sword fighting. There's so much a choreographer can do with speed, tempo, pauses, stances. A choreographer (and director) has to remember that he has to give the talent moments to act during a fight. That's why I like the pacing in the OT. Even the scowl Darth Mault gives at certain points is critical in the final edit. That's why I mention Bourne Identity. There wasn't enough time to see any acting because the goal was to make the fighting so quick and efficient.

I've been talking to the director of the SW fan film I did the choreography for and he mentioned issues of the lack of speed for some of the actresses. I remember those moments filming: it was the end of a 14 hour shoot and those gals were exhausted and running on adrenalin. They did fine when I look at the footage, but the director, in his own discretion (which trumps everyone else's), decided it looked too slow. Of course he's looking at the footage within the context of his own editing as well as that of the pantheon of sword fights in movies in general.

I just saw a part of the Four Musketeers yesterday on TV. It was the scene where Michael and Christopher fight on the ice in a little creek near a bridge. Gawd awful. I get the humor in having everyone bumbling about, but it lasted too long and could've been omitted. I didn't watch long enough to see other fight scenes with any attention.

To digress, I just saw Christopher Lee in Spielberg's 1941. At times Lee speaks with a pretty good German accent. It's funny listening to the insults in Japanese and the German; everyone calling eachother idiots and morons. Did you Toshiro Mifune is the captain of the submarine!

I've also been watching Shanghai Knights. I don't care for Chan's martial arts because I prefer Japanese styles (which can get a little repetitive and boring BTW), but the humor Chan creates in his choreography is brilliant. It's slapstick humor that the American society has deemed inappropriate because it "condones" hitting and punching.

As a teacher of elementary school kids (9 and 10 year olds), I get the point and never encourage anyone to physically play around (because it's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out). Still, it's nice to see something made for adults who can appreciate dumb ass humor once in a while. My kids are banned from talking about South Park in my classroom, while I'll talk about it with friends or colleagues in an instant. That's what's nice about being an adult.


I thought they wore masks as an homage to Kato in Green Hornet.

Think about that one for a second. Homage?

[jariten]

Are we allowed to talk about Star Wars in this thread?!

As to the issue of lightsabres in the PT, I actually think theres a supurb element of romantisicm in 1 on 1 lightsabre combat thats been perfected in TPM and AotC. It always felt a bit rough in the OT (naturally, considering who was doing the fighting) but the fluidity of the fights in the PT certainly add credence and weight to old Obis "a more civilised age" comment.

[HK 47]

I just saw a part of the Four Musketeers yesterday on TV. It was the scene where Michael and Christopher fight on the ice in a little creek near a bridge. Gawd awful. I get the humor in having everyone bumbling about, but it lasted too long and could've been omitted.

No, I'm talking about the one in church, at the end of the film. That's the good one.

Think about that one for a second. Homage?

I've thought about it, yes homage. Tarantino style remember...

[Just your average movie goer]

Are we allowed to talk about Star Wars in this thread?!

Damn good point, Jariten.

HK-47 and co, may I refer to you the Movie Theater? It's this whole other Chefelf.com Nightlife forum. Many things that are not Star Wars can be discussed there.

Check it out sometime. You never know ~ you might like it.

[Chefelf]

To the newer forum members here:

This topic was started over a year ago by njamilla when the only forums that existed were the Crappy News Forum, The Lobby and The Star Wars Forum. A lot has changed since then.

Moving to the more appropriate movie forum.

[Lord Aquaman]

Nick Powell (choreographer of The Last Samurai) and I are apparently of the same opinion:
Full article at: Hollywood's new epics are living (well) by the sword

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was rather insightful. I had never really given it that much thought...

The OT Star Wars duels are preferable [probably spelled that wrong] to the PT Star Wars duels. Although I thought the threeway duel between Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor and Ray Park was well executed and somewhat exciting, at least the first time around, I found it didn't have the same magic or meaning as watching the doomed Alec Guinness-version of Obi-Wan face off with Darth Vader in ANH, or watching the hopelessly outclassed Luke Skywalker face off with Vader for the first time in ESB, and of course, when a really mad Luke goes Hannibal Lector on Vader in ROTJ.

I think I'll stay out of the argument over the swordplay of Kill Bill.

Must say I'm quite fond of the swordplay from the 1988 fantasy Willow. There's something about watching the much maligned Val Kilmer juggle a sword while fighting to escape the snow camp, protect the one castle and then storm the castle in the climax, culminating in a duel to the death between Kilmer and the late Pat Roach, that I find interesting.

And, while I'm sure this'll have people jumping down my throat, I like the sword fights from Conan The Barbarian. Sure it ends in blood and guts, but at least the film's use of blood and guts is more realistic than most movies.

[HK 47]

Sorry guys Didn't check the dates when I first posted. Seems to be a thread-resurrecting trend going on here...