[The Scornful Roman]

As I was posting in the "Lucas Insults Vader" thread, I thought of how George Lucas has treated his iconic Star Wars bad guys over the course of the SEs and the prequels.

Lucas has ruined virtually *ALL* of his villains. I'll explain my statements by ticking them off, one by one.

Darth Maul: I know that Chefelf and perhaps others are not very fond of Darth Maul as a villain. It is true that Lucas did not invest him with much of a personality or a history, given that he had other important things to do, like Jar Jar Bink and the pod-race. Maul is, instead, an icon of evil; we know he's bad just from looking at him. But he doesn't have much dimension to him.

Imagine if Lucas had taken the time to flesh him out into a real character; maybe shown more scenes of him talking with his master, or perhaps given him a bit more dialogue, or perhaps just shown a bit more of his character by certain actions or choices that he makes. I also think that killing him off when the character had SO much of a huge build-up before the first prequel film was released was stupid. Since he was the right hand and the enforcer of Darth Sidious, he was sort of like the Vader to Sidious' Emperor Palpatine. It would have made sense-- and perhaps been poetic irony-- if in the final film Anakin and Maul fight it out to see who will be the true servant and disciple of Palpatine. Or perhaps Maul could have gotten dispatched whilst attempting to kill the Jedi...

The way that the character was just summarily knocked off felt strange. It also led to the Prequel character with the worst Star Wars name ever (though Grievous is pretty bad, too)...

Count Dooku. Much as I love and respect Christopher Lee, Dooku has possibly one, if not the most, stupidest Prequel names EVER. Plus, why is he a Sith? Unless he was corrupted and taken into Palpatine's service in the ten years AFTER Darth Maul's death, Dooku shouldn't even be a Sith if there's only one master and one apprentice. He was a rather bland baddie, I felt: too much of a cliched chap who'll throw his victims into some overly-elaborate monster-filled arena (heck, Jabba's Rancor pit was scarier, what with the undertones of bizzare perverted sex and slave-girls being fed to hideous monsters) that's too easy to escape from and has too many blue-screened beasts wandering around it for comfort, who are ferocious but can be ridden by Jedi and former Queens with titanium crotches (and BTW, Chefelf, in answer to one of your Reasons to Hate The Prequels, a woman landing on that thing with her legs apart would be agonizing. Let's just say that I know this, 'kay?).

In short, Dooku was okay but not stellar.

Senator Palpatine: Ian McDiarmid is given far too little screen time throughout the first two prequel films. This should not be. End of story.

Boba Fett: He's revealed to be a little happy kid who loves his clone-daddy. NO. Just no.

This is the villain defamation, besides that of Vader's, that angers me the most. Both are seen as happy, innocent little kids. We really didn't need this with either character. The thing that I think appealed to people, the thing that Darth Vader and Boba Fett both had in the OT, was an air of mystery to them. They wore masks, and thus you could never see their faces and know whether they were happy or angry or sad. You didn't even know what they looked like, and this caused further speculation and consternation. They were impersonal and ruthless, and the further dehumanization caused by their helmets only made them more fearsome, intimidating, and frightening. With Palpatine, you could still see a human face with all the normal human features-- features that registered his emotions. Vader and Fett had none of these cues. This, I think, accounts for a goodly percentage of the emotions of awe and interest that their fans feel for them.

But with the prequels that aura of mystery is destroyed. Boba Fett stops being the man with no face, the man whose origins aren't completely known and probably never will be. He has a face, now, and a past, and frankly I think that it should not have been done. It ruins the character. I realize that Lucas was perhaps trying, in his own way, to add some depth to this archetypal character, and in the hands of a skilled writer, perhaps it could be done without sacrificing the mystery behind Boba. But Lucas hasn't done that. Just like with Vader, he's gutted and weakened the character instead of building up and giving new life and depth.

What do you think?

[CowboyCurtis]

I agree totally. What he did to Vader, though, is the biggest shame of them all---I know this should be in your other topic, but when I was a kid, I was scared of Vader (but I wanted to see more of him!), and I knew he was bad, and you do not cross his path---he was the epitome of evil in the Star Wars universe---and now he's called "pathetic" and the Emperor wants to "replace" him?

The only reason I thought Emperor might want Vader dead in ROTJ is that he felt that Vader was too big for his britches, and may be able to destroy the Emperor and take his place---in other words---HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN POWERFUL ENOUGH TO DO IT!!!

And to replace his with wimpy Luke? How insulting!!!

Lucas = Asshole.

Agree with you about Maul. As discussed elsewhere, I would've subdued his design more. I would've gotten rid of the horns (Gee--how more obvious can we get---Gee, I wonder if he's evil?) As someone else had suggested, what if the marks on his face were Sith Tatooing or just make up to disguise his identity---wonderful potential here!! But NOOO, we can't have an almost cool villain survive into the next film and be a threat to the characters, no, that would be too much work to deal with him and flesh him out, and actually explain why he needs "revenge!"

Just imagine Maul in the place of Dooku... it might have worked... with a few other changes, of course....

Dooku is crap! Utter, putrid crap!! Lee was totally wasted. He should've been given a role more akin to Peter Cushing's role in ANH.


Thanks, Roman, you are so right!!

[Helena]

Re the 'Titanium Crotch' - I happen to be in a position to confirm, from personal experience, what it's like to fall on that part of your body. 'Agonising' does not even begin to describe it. I still remember screaming so loudly that it actually echoed down the street...

[Lord Aquaman]

True. All of it so very true.

Lucas is lucky that Christopher Lee was good friends with Peter Cushing, otherwise I don't think Lee would have taken the role if not as an ode to his old friend.

I agree that Maul could have been very memorable if he'd been given better treatment. I always thought the Sith should have been like a race similar in appearance to Darth Maul who were dying out after battling the Jedi and were using the cloning technology to keep their race going, but that's just me. I would rather have watched an army of silly looking satan men fighting the Jedi than a bunch of dumb robots that look like Daffy Duck.

[Helena]

I agree that Maul could have been very memorable if he'd been given better treatment. I always thought the Sith should have been like a race similar in appearance to Darth Maul who were dying out after battling the Jedi and were using the cloning technology to keep their race going, but that's just me. I would rather have watched an army of silly looking satan men fighting the Jedi than a bunch of dumb robots that look like Daffy Duck.

Now there's an interesting idea. According to KOTOR at least, the original Sith were indeed a race, but they were eventually wiped out. Imagine if Palpatine/Sidious had found a way to bring them back to life using cloning techniques... that would have made a good background to the Clone Wars.

As for Maul himself, I agree that he could have been a far better character if he'd simply been given a bit of personality, or even more than two lines of dialogue. (Though having said that, horns? For God's sake.) Regardless, it would have been much better to stick with one villain throughout the trilogy and develop him properly, rather continually introducing new ones and then killing them off again before they have a chance to show any real character.

[Garth Vader]

Darth Maul: I know that Chefelf and perhaps others are not very fond of Darth Maul as a villain. It is true that Lucas did not invest him with much of a personality or a history, given that he had other important things to do, like Jar Jar Bink and the pod-race. Maul is, instead, an icon of evil; we know he's bad just from looking at him. But he doesn't have much dimension to him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I could re-do TPM, one of the first things I would do is delete the entire tatooine section and have darth maul (with a different name) as the main villain with the main feature of the prequel being the re-emergence of the sith to realisation of the jedi instead of a damn pod race. I'd possibly have him with an apprentice who is killed by either qui gon or obi wan so the final lightsabre duel can actually have some depth to it with the sith lord gaining personal revenge.

[Sagacity]

If there is any doubt that Lucas is ruining one of the greatest villains of all time, read this:

Lucas Reveals Vader's True Side to Vanity Fair

To those who remember who Vader was, it will make your soul weep.

[not this crude matter]

Sagacity-


noooooooooooooooooooo

[The Scornful Roman]

Quote

Helena wrote:Now there's an interesting idea. According to KOTOR at least, the original Sith were indeed a race, but they were eventually wiped out. Imagine if Palpatine/Sidious had found a way to bring them back to life using cloning techniques... that would have made a good background to the Clone Wars.

The Expanded Universe novels hint that the Clone Wars were so horrible, and that the practice of cloning was so abused, that all cloning (except for at least one species that reproduced through cloning, I think) was summarily banned (though Emperor Palpatine did keep his hands in it, of course...)

But no, due to the kiddie-level stuff that the prequels have been showing us, I doubt that that will happen.

[quote]As for Maul himself, I agree that he could have been a far better character if he'd simply been given a bit of personality, or even more than two lines of dialogue. (Though having said that, horns? For God's sake.) Regardless, it would have been much better to stick with one villain throughout the trilogy and develop him properly, rather continually introducing new ones and then killing them off again before they have a chance to show any real character.[quote]

IMHO, ESB would have been severely weakened if we'd had to have another villain to replace Darth Vader. It just would have added more stress to telling the story, in having to develop another villain to fill the shoes of one who was already so intimidating and evil in the previous ep. This, to me, is what happened with Ep. One. Lucas should have kept Maul as Palpatine's apprentice in some way, and he should have elaborated on WHY the Sith want their revenge. Have the Prequel movies EVER told us why? Not that I can remember.

George Lucas should be giving us this instead of computer-generated aliens that all look like cartoons in 5 years' time. Compared to the advances that CGI is taking, Jar-Jar Binks looks about as real as Roger Rabbit now.

Quote

Garth Vader wrote:If I could re-do TPM, one of the first things I would do is delete the entire tatooine section and have darth maul (with a different name) as the main villain with the main feature of the prequel being the re-emergence of the sith to realisation of the jedi instead of a damn pod race. I'd possibly have him with an apprentice who is killed by either qui gon or obi wan so the final lightsabre duel can actually have some depth to it with the sith lord gaining personal revenge.

Well, the Sith Lord would have to have a reason to personally care about the Jedi killing his apprentice. I mean they're not normally caring people. As I understand it, there's only one master and one apprentice at a time... because when the Sith were so numerous when they first fought the Jedi, they eventually self-destructed due to their own wickedness.

The apprentice would have to be especially useful to the Sith master for it to truly be about 'revenge', and even then it wouldn't have the same personal heft of, say, Luke fighting Darth Vader.

That said, seeing the Sith would be excellent. It might also give a legitimate cover for old Palpatine to sweep in and take power. Aha! I've got it! The Sith come forth, with everyone in the Republic thinking them to be extinct (except the Jedi, who have hints that they exist, perhaps, and a disturbance in the Force), and Palpatine makes war upon them with his army of Clones, declaring that in desperate times, desperate measures are required for survival... no matter the cost. His cronies and supporters in the Senate help him sweep to the height of power, despite misgivings and impassioned pleas from Senators such as Mon Mothma and Bail Organa, as well as others (most of whom are murdered by Palpatine in various ways, which he publicly claims are the work of the growing resistance against his autocracy). At the very end Palpatine proclaims himself Emperor and disbands the Senate, putting his own most powerful supporters into his private circle of advisors, and Mon Mothma flees Coruscant to gather the rebels into a cohesive union... The Rebel Alliance. Palpatine, now securely in power, meets with the Sith lord responsible for the invasion, and we discover that the entire war was a grand ruse, orchestrated by Palpatine and the Sith lord, so that Palpatine could be Emperor and remake the Republic into the image of the former Sith Empire. The Sith leader expects a reward and a place of power for his efforts on behalf of Palpatine; Palpatine, knowing that this man intends to stab HIM in the back as soon as he can, offers him instead the honor of dueling for his prize-- a duel to the death with the newly 'formed' Darth Vader.

How's that sound?

[Lord Aquaman]

If there is any doubt that Lucas is ruining one of the greatest villains of all time, read this:

Lucas Reveals Vader's True Side to Vanity Fair

To those who remember who Vader was, it will make your soul weep.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sad days just keep getting sadder and sadder... I hope it was worth it for that Vanity Fair guy to sell his soul for writing such nice things about old George in his article.

Scornful Roman, I do believe you've got a good idea.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 04 January 2005 - 11:52 PM

[Despondent]

During last night's OU-USC game, there was a commercial for USC with some of their luminaries quoted. As I was asking my Uncle Lee, who enjoyed the OT, WHY hasn't he cared to view the PT, I heard the James EJ voice say something commanding from the OT ("spinning IS a neat trick" from after the MF trench blast- just kidding) and I cringed. Yep, they were touting Lucas as an alumnus, through the voice over of one of his henchmen it appears.

[Paladin]

Guys, I know a lot of people complained about the lack of explanation of the whole 'at last, we will have revenge' thing, but I thought it was kinda obvious. I mean, there was aparently a major war between the Jedi and the Sith thousands of years ago and the Jedi prevailed. Even when Qui-Gon says that he thinks that Darth Maul was a Sith, a Jedi council member doubts it and claims that they've been wiped out for moe than a millenium. I think that that more or less tells a wee bit of the story for SOME understanding, but I agree that the whole thing should have been fleshed out more instead of banging on mindless politics, fart jokes and Jar Jar Binks.

[CowboyCurtis]

If I could re-do TPM, one of the first things I would do is delete the entire tatooine section

I don't think we could've avoided Tatooine, especially since Obi-Wan says, "...your uncle thought he should have stayed here, should not have gotten involved."

I agree, the podrace scene plugs up the storyline, and it is pointless as we know that silly little Anakin is going to win that race anyway. I personally like the pod-race... I just think it's in the wrong film, and it's stupid plot device to not only get the parts, but to free Anakin, too.

This all could've been fixed/avoided if 1) Anakin was a not a slave--completely unnecessary, and 2) if Qui-Gon had "Jedi Mind Tricked" some money changer to take his dataries.

Boy, Jedi are stupid if they don't figure out alternatives to their plans, and if they're depending too much on the Force to "help them out," then we lose the 'human element' which is what the original films were all about. I don't know if I'm making myself clear on that... I'll elaborate later.

[Lord Aquaman]

If I could re-do TPM, one of the first things I would do is delete the entire tatooine section

I don't think we could've avoided Tatooine, especially since Obi-Wan says, "...your uncle thought he should have stayed here, should not have gotten involved."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which leads to the unsolved mystery of why Phantom Menace doesn't show Owen knowing or being involved with Anakin in any way, shape or form. Why'd George Lucas wait till AOTC to introduce the two to each other?

[Helena]

Guys, I know a lot of people complained about the lack of explanation of the whole 'at last, we will have revenge' thing, but I thought it was kinda obvious. I mean, there was aparently a major war between the Jedi and the Sith thousands of years ago and the Jedi prevailed. Even when Qui-Gon says that he thinks that Darth Maul was a Sith, a Jedi council member doubts it and claims that they've been wiped out for moe than a millenium. I think that that more or less tells a wee bit of the story for SOME understanding, but I agree that the whole thing should have been fleshed out more instead of banging on mindless politics, fart jokes and Jar Jar Binks.

Well, I believe you're right, but I don't think the films ever tell us this. All that's mentioned is that the Sith are now 'extinct', which makes them sound more like a species which just died out. I don't see how anyone unfamiliar with the EU could guess that the Jedi wiped them out in a war (especially since we're never even told exactly what the Sith are).