[Lord Aquaman]

George Lucas goes on this big bend about how Obi-Wan and Vader's fight from ANH wasn't as grand as what we see in ESB, ROTJ and the prequels because they were old and what not. Wouldn't it have been easier just to say "It was our first lightsaber duel... the technology was pretty much in it's infancy."? That's what I would say if I was in Lucas's place.

Perhaps all our lives would have been better without "Star Wars"... perhaps it would have been better never to have it at all than to have it, love it and then have its own creator destroy its integrity.

[Helena]

Well, you would have thought it would be easier for him to admit that Luke and Leia weren't originally meant to be siblings, and that he didn't really have the entire story arc worked out from the start - but apparently not.

[HK 47]

Lucas knows the fanboys want to make sense of everything in Star Wars, hence his stupid reply. Look at theforce.net and you'll find unbelievable threads on matters much more trivial than the "old men" duel. They don't really care how far-fetched the explanation is, as long as it's from Lucas mouth, it's law. And when Lucas doesn't have an explanation, they make up their own, diligently searching the movies for "evidence".

The thing is, details like this would be overlooked if Lucas was in fact making good movies. What's worse is, he doesn't seem interested in doing so. Theory: Maybe he actually knows that he isn't skilled enough to pull off an epic trilogy like this with all the ingredients it should contain. But he wants to be in charge and he wants to make money. So a defense mechanism kicks in, he distances himself from his own creation, not taking it seriously. Doing things like finishing the script after production has started...

[Just your average movie goer]

That's a good point. I honestly wouldn't mind it so much if Lucas was honest with us. If he said things like "Ah, I'm sorry guys. I don't really know what to do with these prequels. Come on, I'll buy you a drink.", I wouldn't be so hard on him.

If there's one thing I'd really like to hear Lucas say, it is this -

"Oh, making Greedo shoot first was such a stupid idea. I don't know what I was thinking."

[njamilla]

I'm with you on this. Just say the sword fighting improved as we went along.

[Helena]

That's a good point.  I honestly wouldn't mind it so much if Lucas was honest with us.  If he said things like "Ah, I'm sorry guys.  I don't really know what to do with these prequels.  Come on, I'll buy you a drink.", I wouldn't be so hard on him.

Yes, I feel the same way. I've no idea why he seems so terrified of admitting that he could ever have changed his mind about anything, or that his design of the PT owes more to aesthetic considerations than anything else. Look at KOTOR: when it was pointed out that everything looked similar to the movies even though the game was set 4000 years earlier, the designers just shrugged their shoulders and pretty much said "Well, we don't really have an explanation. Make up your own if it's that important to you." And because it was such a good game anyway, nobody really cared.

I wouldn't really mind all the technology, duels etc. in the PT looking more complex and impressive than what we saw in the OT, if Lucas would just admit that he's doing it because technology is better now and he can. Yes, it would be nice if he could at least try to maintain consistency between the trilogies, but it's inevitable that a film made in 2001 is going to look very different from one made in 1977 - and in any case, these are fairly minor issues compared to all the problems with plot and characterization. What I find really insulting is how he comes up with these pathetic attempts at an explanation and expects us to swallow them whole, rather than just admitting what everyone with half a brain knows to be the case.

[The Scornful Roman]

This is probably why he should never have done prequels in the first place, if the look was going to be so different. In a series that goes forward in time, like the Alien films, the difference in look can be attributed to changing and improving technology in the Alien-'verse itself, because there's a 257-year (roughly) gap between the first Alien film and the last. Still, the series has a cetain continuity to it, in the rough, gritty, down-and-dirty aspect that every Alien film shares.

Regarding the continuity... well, I like things in my beloved fandoms to make sense, and I do care that they have an internal consistency, because then the suspension of disbelief is shattered. That's why I enjoyed reading the Star Wars Extended Universe novels so much: because I'd bought into the concept of Star Wars, so much that I wanted to know more about it from a source that I regarded as official.

[Paladin]

There's no shame in admitting that you weren't able to do these things due to budget or technology contraints of the time they were made in.

The real reason why the duel between Obi and Vader was so slow and careful in ANH was far more due to the material that the lightsabers were made off. I forgot exactly what, but I heard that they were really fragile and couldn't handle too much abuse before breaking. The lightsabers used in ESB and ROTJ were far out of better stuff and could handle more abuse, and thus, they could make more dramatic duels with them.

[Chefelf]

I'm with you on this. Just say the sword fighting improved as we went along.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was just about to comment on how Nick Jamilla would (and does) have a lot more to say on this matter.

Read his book: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western, and Star Wars Sword Fighting

Allow me to quote form njamilla's book regarding the swordplay in the OT vs. PT:

On the whole, the seer simplicity of the sword fight in A New Hope conveys a critical element of the story line -- the sword may be the tool of the Jedi, but evein in death Obi-Wan, the symbol of good in the universe, will become more powerful than the agent of darkness.  For the swordsman, the lack of dynamic movement actually illustrates their mastery of tswordsmanship.  no more energy than that of a single attack needs to be expended.  With a single attack. the dispatch of an opponent is accomplished with minimal effort.

...

Between fencers of this caliber, there is only the slightest movement before an attack is made.  Unlike junior fencers prodding and experimenting to discover their opponent's weakness, the master needs on find the opportunity to attack.  Instead of a badgering movement to test an opponent, there is only the explosion of the attack.  No effort is wasted.  Only the simple execution of extraordinary power and precision without distraction.  The power and skill is so awesome that only a swordsman will fully appreciate the mastey of a teacher who tames the most limber and lightning speed of a kendoka in the vigor of his youth.  It is not the crudeness of the muscles that allows the masdter to effortlessly trounce the cream of the student cadre, it is timing and the simple execution of the most basic of techniques.

njamilla, sorry to reprint your work without your permission. If you'd prefer that I remove that excerpt from your book I will remove it.

I just find it to be a great explanation of why the saber fights in the original trilogy, in ways, have more merit than the uber-fights presented in the prequels. The prequel fights are great spectacles, don't get me wrong, but the original trilogy combat is much more true to actual nature of swordsmanship.

[njamilla]

My sentiments exactly!

[Helena]

Now that is a good explanation. Too bad Lucas didn't think of that one...

[J m HofMarN]

Perhaps the reason Vader, Obi Wan and Luke (and Yoda and Palaptine for that matter) didn't fly through the air and do flips and such is because as characters they realized that this would look really fucking stupid and be completely exhausting?

And here's another thought. If when the OT opened we had Vader and Obi Wan jumping around and bouncing off walls and running up bamboo trees in their duel do you really think fans would have accepted Star Wars as much as they have? I think that if this had been tried when Yoda wasnt an established and beloved character that people would have walked out of the theaters going "Who the fuck gave that muppet a trampoline?"

Also, I would pay to see what OT puppet Yoda would look like flying through the air and bouncing around. I'm sure someone can make up a puppet of Yoda and give it a lightsaber and start thrashing it around a large hallway while video taping it. I think it would be good to see how the scene actually would have gone- Yoda's form disintegrating and losing pieces with every bounce.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 03 January 2005 - 10:49 AM

[Paladin]

Hey, Njamilla, I have an interest in swordfighting and general 'medieval' combat (axes, maces, spears, you get the idea), can you recomend some good books on the subject? In addition to yours, of course!

I'm totally facinated with weapons, warfare, combat and military stuff in general. I'm planning on making a small collection of books about fighter planes, guns, tnaks and other modern warfare stuff to add to my knowledge, but I'm pretty stumped on finding good books about medieval weaponry and sword fighting in general. Again I'll ask, any recomendations?

Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by Paladin: 03 January 2005 - 11:02 AM

[Lord Aquaman]

I'm surprised George Lucas didn't try to insert CGI reconfigurations of Obi-Wan & Vader to make the duel from ANH run longer and be more "exciting" to all the 14 year olds out there.

[Chefelf]

Paladin, while njamilla will probably have some great suggestions (should he see this reply) I need to recommend his book again.

While on the surface his book may seem like it is very focused on Star Wars, he goes into great detail about the history of the sword and its uses in Earth history. The book is actually much more about the sword, its meaning and the training/culture revolving around it. It does go into detail on the lightsaber and Star Wars, but the book serves as a great lesson in swords, swordsmanship and battle.

I can't recommend the book enough. I learned a lot from that book.

Another great book is Living the Martial Way : A Manual for the Way a Modern Warrior Should Think by by Forrest E. Morgan. It may not be exactly what you're looking for (as far as highlighting weaponry, etc.) but it is a great study on warrior history and culture.