[Supes]

Perosnally I'd be avoiding both. Please see below a set of traits:

Egocentricity; Callousness; Impulsivity; Conscience defect; Exaggerated sexuality; Excessive boasting; Risk taking; Inability to resist temptation; Antagonistic, deprecating attitude toward the opposite sex; Lack of interest in bonding with a mate.

These are generally considered to be the traits of a sociopath. Anakin displays enough of these that I certainly would not like to be associating with him for to long.

Anakin becomes Vader. A sociopath who has almost perfected his art and now has successes to elevate his own self-beliefs. He has the assurance that he is everything he believes he is and with that comes a calmness that he no longer has anything to prove. He is everything he has always claimed he was. In reality the Vader represented in the OT is actually a psychopath, or I guess has evolved into a psychopath. That's not really the way it works with people, but this is sci-fi/fantasy so some leeway can be afforded.

So the question is really, would you rather be around a sociopath or a psychopath.

Neither of these individuals are safe or fun to be around, but for clearly different reasons. Vader just scores the cool factor because he is detached, and quite frankly a hell of a lot more powerful by the time we see himin the OT compared to Anakin PT.

This post has been edited by Supes: 28 December 2004 - 02:53 AM

[jariten]

use the force- as an impassioned plea from one fan to another- can you please keep RotS spoilers to threads about RotS spoliers? i'm trying to keep my hands clean!

[Helena]

OK, I'm fed up with hearing this assertion that the Sand People are 'monsters'. We don't know anything like enough about them to draw a conclusion like that, and what we do know about them - they live in close-knit communities, they care for their children - indicates the opposite. As I said before, humans have done everything they did and more - and as J m pointed out, KOTOR provides a very plausible explanation for why they should be so hostile towards outsiders.

As for listing all Vader's crimes, again this is missing the point. No one is denying that Vader did some extremely nasty things, but he did them for a purpose - unlike Anakin, whose only motivation for most things he does appears to be his complete lack of self-control and self-awareness. In real life I'd want to keep as far away from both of them as possible, but if I were forced to choose one of them to associate with it would be Vader. He's calm, intelligent and mature, and you can imagine him being a reasonably tolerable companion as long as you were careful not to do anything to anger him - unlike Anakin, who's just an overgrown ten-year-old. I'd actually prefer the slight chance of being Force-choked to the certainty of having to endure Anakin's whining, temper tantrums, creepy stares, 'romantic' speeches, dumb attempts at humour and total lack of intelligent conversation.

[Despondent]

I'd rather be seen in public with Vader. I'd rather see a movie featuring Vader. I'd pick Vader first on a football team.

And I'd proudly follow suit and declare Anikan lives no more.

[Chefelf]

I've created a new BB code to deal with spoilers:

Simply list spoilers like this:

CODE

[SPOILER]I have a secret and it is soooooo good to hear it![/SPOILER]

The result will be invisible. You will have to click and drag with your mouse to block the text and be able to read.

Block the text below to find out the super secret Star Wars spoiler below!!

Darth Vader is really Luke's father!!

That should help with things in the spoiler department.

[Paladin]

I'd actually prefer the slight chance of being Force-choked to the certainty of having to endure Anakin's whining, temper tantrums, creepy stares, 'romantic' speeches, dumb attempts at humour and total lack of intelligent conversation.

I used to throw temper tantrums aplenty in the pase. My problem, however, is not that I developed into an 'Anakin' character, it's just that I always had a temper/anger problem ever since I was a small kid, and there are many people in the world who have had anger problems like me.

Of course, the difference between me and Anakin is that I recognized I had a problem and wanted to change myself for the better. Also, if I ever said that 'it's all your fault' I'd actually have something to back it up with... I never make accusations without evidence.

Another thing is that I never bothered people I don't know with my problems, I only did it with my parents and my siblings, never with my other friends, teachers, or just acquantances that I meet on a regular basis.

You mentioned that you know 12 year olders who are more mature than Anakin, then let me tell you something, I have a 6 year old cousin that's better than him. Plus my neighbours 10 year old boy (and his 8 year old sister) are also vastly better. Just how the hell are we supposed to like Anakin? When I watched the movie, I groaned, moaned and grimaced at Anakin's continous charades and stupidity... this is not Darth Vader at all.

[use the force]

OK, I'm fed up with hearing this assertion that the Sand People are 'monsters'. We don't know anything like enough about them to draw a conclusion like that, and what we do know about them - they live in close-knit communities, they care for their children - indicates the opposite. As I said before, humans have done everything they did and more - and as J m pointed out, KOTOR provides a very plausible explanation for why they should be so hostile towards outsiders.

As for listing all Vader's crimes, again this is missing the point. No one is denying that Vader did some extremely nasty things, but he did them for a purpose - unlike Anakin, whose only motivation for most things he does appears to be his complete lack of self-control and self-awareness. In real life I'd want to keep as far away from both of them as possible, but if I were forced to choose one of them to associate with it would be Vader. He's calm, intelligent and mature, and you can imagine him being a reasonably tolerable companion as long as you were careful not to do anything to anger him - unlike Anakin, who's just an overgrown ten-year-old. I'd actually prefer the slight chance of being Force-choked to the certainty of having to endure Anakin's whining, temper tantrums, creepy stares, 'romantic' speeches, dumb attempts at humour and total lack of intelligent conversation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cliegg LArs said they walk like men but they are viscious mindless monsters. They might have some human qualities but that does not make them human. If some group of cannibals near australia kidnapped and ate my mom i would track them down and slaughter them out of pure hatred.we do enough about them to draw conclusoins. they attacked luke for no reason, blow up racers during the pod race in episode 1, tortured anakins mom whatsoever for no reason, how much do you need to say they are all psycho paths. And yes anakin did slaughter them all, but he did fel really bad afterwards and admits that he shouldnt of killed the woman and chilldren etc etc. vader however blows up a whole planet with no second thoughts. sorry, dont want to hang around a guy like that. I would prefer to talk to anakin about jedi knights and sutff then be afraid to say one word about vader out of fear of being torutred/killed.

[Helena]

Cliegg LArs said they walk like men but they are viscious mindless monsters.

So? Just because Cliegg Lars says something, that means it has to be right?

They might have some human qualities but that does not make them human. If some group of cannibals near australia kidnapped and ate my mom i would track them down and slaughter them out of pure hatred.

So cannibalistic tribes, or other 'primitive' peoples who behave in ways our culture considers unacceptable, are less human than us? Nice to know you're a racist as well as a moron. If you actually did such a thing - and I don't believe for a millisecond that you either could or would - you would end up in jail for the rest of your life, which is precisely what should have happened to Anakin.

we do enough about them to draw conclusoins. they attacked luke for no reason, blow up racers during the pod race in episode 1, tortured anakins mom whatsoever for no reason, how much do you need to say they are all psycho paths.

But they don't 'all' do these things, do they? I sincerely doubt that even all the Sand People men were involved in these things, let alone the women and children. As for why some of them do these things, clearly they hate outsiders - this does not make them 'all psychopaths'. There are all sorts of reasons why this could be the case - maybe they were treated badly by previous groups of settlers (as the Native Americans were); maybe, as KOTOR suggests, they feel that the human settlements are a violation of their territory and their sacred traditions. No, this doesn't make it any more acceptable for them to kill humans than for Anakin to kill them - but at least they have the excuse of being a primitive, uneducated and superstitious tribal people who aren't used to contact with other races. Anakin does not.

And yes anakin did slaughter them all, but he did fel really bad afterwards and admits that he shouldnt of killed the woman and chilldren etc etc.

No he doesn't! He talks about how he killed the women and children, and then he goes on to describe them as 'all animals' - the implication being that it doesn't really matter that he killed them. He's not admitting his guilt, he's trying to justify himself!

vader however blows up a whole planet with no second thoughts. sorry, dont want to hang around a guy like that. I would prefer to talk to anakin about jedi knights and sutff then be afraid to say one word about vader out of fear of being torutred/killed.

The only reason you'd be likely to be tortured or killed by Vader is if you actively tried to insult him or oppose him in some way. Apart from that, I'd far rather have a conversation with an intelligent person like Vader rather than listen to Anakin whinging about everyone 'holding him back', boasting of his great Jedi abilities, mouthing off about how he thinks dictatorships are a good idea or, worst of all, coming on to me.

[Paladin]

vader however blows up a whole planet with no second thoughts. sorry, dont want to hang around a guy like that. I would prefer to talk to anakin about jedi knights and sutff then be afraid to say one word about vader out of fear of being torutred/killed.

Vader wasn't behind blowing up Alderaan, it was Grand Moff Tarkin's idea. When he and Vader were trying to find a way to make Leia talk, Tarkin decided to test the battle station on Alderaan and tried to make Leia talk in exchange with spilling the beans about where the Rebel base is. Why everyone thinks Vader was behind it is beyond me. Sure, he didn't protest against it, but I think that's more or less because he had no reason to and was pretty much under Tarkin's command at the time.

They might have some human qualities but that does not make them human. If some group of cannibals near australia kidnapped and ate my mom i would track them down and slaughter them out of pure hatred.

You might find this hard to believe, but even cannibalistic tribes (by which I mean FORMERLY cannibalistic tribes) are actually apologizing for the stuff they did CENTURIES in the past. Several months ago, a certain tribe somewhere (I forgot) apologized to the descendants of an individual they ate more than 150 years ago, and they sent some of the stuff that belonged to him back then (for some reason they still held on to them).

I would not wish to slaughter an entire village of cannibals even if they ate someone dear to me, but one thing which I would want to do is to prevent something like this from happening. But if those people are actually habitual maneaters for some reason and won't stop, then I think the Army would probably take care of them and I really wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

So cannibalistic tribes, or other 'primitive' peoples who behave in ways our culture considers unacceptable, are less human than us? Nice to know you're a racist as well as a moron. If you actually did such a thing - and I don't believe for a millisecond that you either could or would - you would end up in jail for the rest of your life, which is precisely what should have happened to Anakin.

I think Anakin should have gotten a worse penality than simply being jailed for the rest of his natural life, he should have been given the chair. And this is coming from someone who is normally against the death penality.

What's more is, why wasn't Yoda really distrubed by Anakin's behavior? He sensed Anakin's anger and how he was venting it, but all he did was shake his head around and make some comments on feeling his suffering (I haven't watched the scene in a while, so I don't remember much, sorry). He should have been expelled from the Jedi Order for what he did, but apparently the Jedi are very tolerant in that regard -- even if the said Padawan is an insubordinate maniac who disobey's everything his master tells him and regularly gets into trouble and is more or less a reckless buffoon.

[jariten]

so its better to murder in cold blood for making a tactical mistake than it is to kill after your tortured to death mother dies in your arms?

what should Anakin have done? forgiven them? walked away? if you had Anakins power I mean. Perhaps if Obi Wan wasn't holding him back his power wouldve been controlled and meeted out in other, more productive ways instead of boiling over and coming to the fore in one horrific, explosive event which sends Anakin right over the edge.

Anakins actions were in no way forgivable, but they were at least fathomable. we can understand why he did it. It took a momentous event. Vader murders what is presumably a perfectly capable commander after he makes one mistake! Is this intelligence? Is this 'self restraint'? and to those of you who just said "yes", do you honestly believe that? they won the battle with no problems, and presumably few casualties even after Ozzels 'mistake'.

The fact is, Anakin only became dangerous on justified grounds, Vaders behavour was pointless, and hense he would be far more dangerous. as long as you dont torture any of Anakins relations, you'll be ok. who knows when you'll be murdered by Vader?

Paladin- you know that 'Anakin Skywalker' is a fictional character right? If thats the case, what is the point and what are you trying to prove (which is what I think you're doing) by constantly comparing yourself to him?

This post has been edited by jariten: 28 December 2004 - 03:03 PM

[Despondent]

To anyone who doesn't contact his Mom for a decade, she's already dead.

that's the point.

I grew tired of Lucas moving around the characters like chess pawns and making them dance with each other. Forced "introductions," wedged "relationships" and uncomfortable "friendships" be damned. Here we have two characters joined at the hip who have all the chemistry of complete strangers. ("of course they do! they've been distanced for ten years!")

When do WE, distanced from a one-time visionary who fathered us, get to take some retribution for the void of same presence?

[Sagacity]

To anyone who doesn't contact his Mom for a decade, she's already dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'Nuff said.

[Helena]

so its better to murder in cold blood for making a tactical mistake than it is to kill after your tortured to death mother dies in your arms?

No, no one is saying it's 'better'! The point I'm trying to make about Vader and Anakin is not just their moral character, but which of them would be the more pleasant (or rather, less unpleasant) character to have to associate with. As far as I'm concerned there's not much between them, but on balance I still think Vader has the edge.

what should Anakin have done? forgiven them? walked away? if you had Anakins power I mean. Perhaps if Obi Wan wasn't holding him back his power wouldve been controlled and meeted out in other, more productive ways instead of boiling over and coming to the fore in one horrific, explosive event which sends Anakin right over the edge.

For God's sake, we never actually see Obi-Wan 'holding him back' in any way whatsoever! Yes, Anakin claims that this is the case, but he never even demonstrates these exceptional powers he's supposed to have - what he appears to mean by 'holding back' is the occasional lecture or ticking-off whenever he puts his foot in his mouth or does something stupid, childish or dangerous. And this is sufficient to enrage him so much that he's capable of becoming a mass murderer?

Even if there was any evidence Obi-Wan was really 'holding him back' in some way, it would hardly be enough to justify this kind of pent-up rage. I've had teachers who've picked on me and pissed me off to an unbelievable degree, but even as a 12-year-old I was capable of controlling these emotions to a greater degree than Anakin. I certainly didn't store up all my anger to be released years later in a fit of murderous fury!

Anakins actions were in no way forgivable, but they were at least fathomable. we can understand why he did it. It took a momentous event. Vader murders what is presumably a perfectly capable commander after he makes one mistake! Is this intelligence? Is this 'self restraint'? and to those of you who just said "yes", do you honestly believe that? they won the battle with no problems, and presumably few casualties even after Ozzels 'mistake'.

Ever heard the phrase 'pour encourager les autres'? Vader does these things to make it clear to his other commanders that they'd better not make the same kind of mistake. Yes, only a complete psychopath could act in this way, but it's a calculated action done for a purpose - not the result of a temper tantrum. And various military commanders have been known to act this way in real life - I believe the phrase I quoted refers to Napoleon.

The fact is, Anakin only became dangerous on justified grounds, Vaders behavour was pointless, and hense he would be far more dangerous. as long as you dont torture any of Anakins relations, you'll be ok. who knows when you'll be murdered by Vader?

Sentence by sentence: However justified Anakin's anger at his mother's killers may be, there was nothing remotely justifiable about killing innocent women and children. Vader's behaviour was not pointless, as I explained above. Anakin may not actually kill you unless you torture any of his relations (though God help you if you happen to belong to the same village as anyone who did), but he's still entirely capable of making your life a misery. And as I said before, if you avoid doing anything that's likely to upset Vader (and it should be fairly clear what kind of thing would upset him), you're unlikely to be murdered. Unless you work for him, in which case frankly you deserve all you get.

Paladin, about your last point - I don't think the Jedi ever even found out about what Anakin did. (Yes, you would have thought they'd sense this kind of murderous anger in him, but the PT Jedi seem to be too stupid to sense anything whatsoever.) It certainly appears that Padme didn't tell anyone - which, as far as I'm concerned, makes her largely responsible for Anakin's subsequent crimes and the destruction of the Jedi and the Republic. However horrific Anakin's actions, you could always argue that since he clearly has the emotional intelligence of a pre-teen, he probably couldn't help himself; Padme, however, has no such excuse.

[use the force]

I think this matter just boils down to opinions. Some people believe sand people to be like humans while other people like me think sand people are just some alien thugs. Would you have wanted anakin to kill only the men. Also by the time anakin lopped off the first guards head the whole tribe was probabley already beginning to attack them anyway. Because if they had all scattered i doubt he would have had the patience to track them all down in diferent directions.



Sometimes I wonder if you guys have eevn seen these movies. Anakin asnt allowed to contact his mom so thats why he hasnt seen her in ten years. Also, I doubt yoda knew exactly what anakin did. All he felt was hate. And to them without knowing the circumstances why would they kick the chosen one out of the order.

[J m HofMarN]

Hmmm so many points to make... Ok. First of all. No. I'm not taking the crap Lucas pulled in the PT into account. In the PT the sand people like to kidnap people for absolutely no reason and tie them to easels. They also make a hobby of traveling out of their way towards noisy race tracks which most primitive beings would avoid like the plague and using guns (I thought all they had were gaffi sticks?) to randomly shoot at people.

No. Just no. In the OT all we see the sandpeople do is attack Luke when he rides a noisy speeder into their territory (which they could easily consider an act of aggression) When Obi Wan appears they don't go kamikaze and try to kill him- they run off in fear. These are NOT the same sandpeople who make coordinated strikes on race tracks and homesteads for the soul purpose of causing completely random misery.

The OT and KotOR are more true to the idea of SW than the PT ever will be.

What's more is, why wasn't Yoda really distrubed by Anakin's behavior? He sensed Anakin's anger and how he was venting it, but all he did was shake his head around and make some comments on feeling his suffering

Yeah, its rather sad that the Jedi can't sense a bloody thing anymore, or if they do they just don't care.

Yoda: "I sense a great disturbance in the force. As if a whole village cried out and was suddenly silenced..."

Mace: "Hey Yoda forget about that, come check this out, one of the padawans wet his pants! hahaha!"

Yoda: "For me, wait. The first to make fun of him I want to be."

Hmmm another great quote:

"

Perhaps if Obi Wan wasn't holding him back"

Yes, and perhaps if Palpatine hadn't stripped naked and danced infront of him all the time he wouldn't be so deranged.

It's fun to just assume that things happened because Lucas is incapable of articulating them and putting them into his movies...

("of course they do! they've been distanced for ten years!")

Thats a real good point, Despondent. How the hell did Shmi even know it was Anakin? And why the hell did she care if he'd made no attempts at contacting her for so long?

On the main subject though, I'd rather hang out with Vader than with Anakin.