[J m HofMarN]

Here is a comparison of Anakin to Vader

Anakin:
Blew up a ship when he was a young man, killing potentially thousands of people and laughing gleefully.
Left his mother in slavery to go hang out with some Jedi.
Whines and complained constantly and had no respect for anyone.
Saw Padme as some sort of sex object and routinely stared at her creepily.
Defied the Jedi's rules without any sort of consideration.
Slaughtered an entire village of largely defenseless sandpeople
Apparently will murder a lot of Jedi kids and stuff as well as count Dooku and General Grievous.

Vader:
Might have tortured leiah.
Cut off Luke's arm
Killed Obi Wan in a one on one duel despite having soldiers who could have easily helped him.
Cut off Luke's hand, again in a one on one duel.
Tortured Han Solo.
Always acted respectful to his master.
Choked one guy.

So, scoring it up:

There might be some debate if the destruction of Alderaan were blamed on Vader but clearly the admiral had a lot more to do with that decision.

So to be perfectly frank I think Dark side Anakin is a better person than Light side Anakin. Talk amongst yourselves.

[Helena]

Which of them is a 'better person' is debatable, but I certainly know which one I'd prefer to be around. (Hint: not Anakin.)

[J m HofMarN]

Yeah good point. I think Anakin could have gotten Leia to squeal about the rebel base though:

Anakin: You will tell me the location of your rebel base. -An ominous looking droid floats in-

Leia: What are you going to do, torture me?

Anakin: No. I am going to tell you about how Obi Wan holds me back and I can never find a speeder I like and I like to kill sand people in my spare time but sometimes I accidently kill baby sandpeople and Obi Wan is like a father to me but I still hate him and--

Leia: Ok you sick fuck, it's on Dantooine. Now bring back that admiral guy at least he knew when to shut his mouth.

[jariten]

oh come on...

[Lord Aquaman]

Here is a comparison of Anakin to Vader

Anakin:
Blew up a ship when he was a young man, killing potentially thousands of people and laughing gleefully.
Left his mother in slavery to go hang out with some Jedi.
Whines and complained constantly and had no respect for anyone.
Saw Padme as some sort of sex object and routinely stared at her creepily.
Defied the Jedi's rules without any sort of consideration.
Slaughtered an entire village of largely defenseless sandpeople
Apparently will murder a lot of Jedi kids and stuff as well as count Dooku and General Grievous.

Vader:
Might have tortured leiah.
Cut off Luke's arm
Killed Obi Wan in a one on one duel despite having soldiers who could have easily helped him.
Cut off Luke's hand, again in a one on one duel.
Tortured Han Solo.
Always acted respectful to his master.
Choked one guy.

So, scoring it up:

There might be some debate if the destruction of Alderaan were blamed on Vader but clearly the admiral had a lot more to do with that decision.

So to be perfectly frank I think Dark side Anakin is a better person than Light side Anakin. Talk amongst yourselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Believe it or not, Darth Vader IS the better man than "light side Anakin".

[Helena]

oh come on...

Well? He has a point. They're both psychopaths, but Vader is at least a calm and level-headed psychopath, unlike Anakin who is prone to bursts of uncontrolled rage. And for all his faults, at least Vader doesn't whine all the time.

[jariten]

The main difference between Anakin and Vader is that by the time of the OT, Vader has had all the hurt, the anguish and the general emotional turmoil that was ripping his younger self apart beaten down and supressed so hes just become this numb representation of pure evil.

It was that turmoil that drove Anakin to do the things he did, to either avenge, then later protect the things he loved and wanted to keep. In the OT of course "theres is no conflict" in Vader, or at least thats how things appear at first. the reappearance of his son helps him to regain his human part again and well, you know the rest.

Thats why Vader isn't prone to fits of uncontrolled rage until he kills the Emperor, and his human side comes back to him. That is the only time when Vader seems really angry or motivated about anything.

[J m HofMarN]

"The main difference between Anakin and Vader is that by the time of the OT, Vader has had all the hurt, the anguish and the general emotional turmoil that was ripping his younger self apart beaten down and supressed so hes just become this numb representation of pure evil."

I'm going to have to disagree on that, I'm pretty sure that given the prequels representation the Dark Side actually made Anakin a better and more likeable person.

[Helena]

The main difference between Anakin and Vader is that by the time of the OT, Vader has had all the hurt, the anguish and the general emotional turmoil that was ripping his younger self apart beaten down and supressed so hes just become this numb representation of pure evil.

It was that turmoil that drove Anakin to do the things he did, to either avenge, then later protect the things he loved and wanted to keep. In the OT of course "theres is no conflict" in Vader, or at least thats how things appear at first. the reappearance of his son helps him to regain his human part again and well, you know the rest.

So you're saying that a dangerous person with absolutely no self-control somehow gains self-control by going to the Dark Side? I think you're just proving our point for us here, jariten. In any case the idea is ridiculous - since the Dark Side feeds off anger and hatred, surely it should amplify those emotions in Anakin rather than suppressing them? Vader gets angry in the OT as well, but he doesn't throw temper tantrums and lash out wildly at everyone around him the way Anakin does in AotC.

Thats why Vader isn't prone to fits of uncontrolled rage until he kills the Emperor, and his human side comes back to him. That is the only time when Vader seems really angry or motivated about anything.

But it's not 'uncontrolled rage' which motivates Anakin to kill the Emperor, it's the desire to save his son's life. He doesn't strike out at him wildly or anything like that; he just calmly picks him up and throws him down the shaft - even though he knows it will lead to his own death. That's one of the most moving things about that scene, and it's the only time in any of the movies that I ever actually felt any sympathy for Anakin.

[jariten]

I don't know what the dark side does to you exactly, because its never explained in the films, but what we can see is the effect it has on you. All of the sith so far have been precise, calculating, patient and methodical. Think of the way Maul takes out Qui Gon, or even his behaviour in general, the cold way that Vader takes out his troops and walks and acts, or the slow burning nature of Palpatines plan. There is no turmoil, no conflict in any of these characters. Whatever the darkside is, theyve given themselves to it fully and renounced emotions, feelings or anything that you and I would consider human. This is obviosuly the opposite of Anakin who runs full on emotion and its pretty much what drives him, be it anger, love, remorse, sorrow whatever. Thats the difference I was trying to explain.

But it's not 'uncontrolled rage' which motivates Anakin to kill the Emperor, it's the desire to save his son's life

yes, the motivation is different, but the driving force- emotion- is the same. Hence this is the moment where he becomes human again and gets back in touch with his pre-helmet self. Its an act of autonomy that we havnt seen since TPM (i'm imagining that they'll be watched in order at some point in the future).

[Helena]

I don't know what the dark side does to you exactly, because its never explained in the films, but what we can see is the effect it has on you. All of the sith so far have been precise, calculating, patient and methodical. Think of the way Maul takes out Qui Gon, or even his behaviour in general, the cold way that Vader takes out his troops and walks and acts, or the slow burning nature of Palpatines plan. There is no turmoil, no conflict in any of these characters. Whatever the darkside is, theyve given themselves to it fully and renounced emotions, feelings or anything that you and I would consider human. This is obviosuly the opposite of Anakin who runs full on emotion and its pretty much what drives him, be it anger, love, remorse, sorrow whatever. Thats the difference I was trying to explain.

We've seen, what, four Sith so far? And of these, Maul never displays any sort of personality whatsoever, while both Vader and the emperor show clear signs of emotion - for instance, Vader choking a guy just for insulting his 'religion', and the Emperor hurling Force lightning at Luke in his frustration at not being able to convert him to the Dark Side. Yes, I imagine there would be loss of human feeling involved in falling to the Dark Side - but only things like compassion, love and altruism, rather than rage and hatred. It certainly doesn't explain how someone like Anakin, who displays no self-control of any kind during AotC, could turn into the cool, collected Vader.

In any case, even if you're correct, it just takes us back to where we started. Which would you prefer to be around - a frighteningly immature adolescent who regularly throws temper tantrums and occasionally erupts into fits of murderous rage, or someone who's lost all emotion but is at least intelligent, rational and predictable? Yes, Vader is evil and ruthless, but we never see him kill anyone who hasn't provoked him in some way, which is more than can be said for Anakin.

yes, the motivation is different, but the driving force- emotion- is the same. Hence this is the moment where he becomes human again and gets back in touch with his pre-helmet self. Its an act of autonomy that we havnt seen since TPM (i'm imagining that they'll be watched in order at some point in the future).

Yes, it's motivated by emotion, but it doesn't indicate a lack of self-control - quite the contrary. Deliberately putting himself through that kind of pain and sacrificing his own life to save Luke shows an incredible amount of self-discipline.

[Vwing]

You know, guys, there's a difference between hating the prequels and being prequel-haters. When JM posted this, it was very clever, I got a nice laugh at this, a good job of showing how the prequels really have handled Anakin's character horribly.

The fact that we are actually discussing it seriously boggles my mind. TPM's Anakin is a nice little kid, I would certainly like to be around him. AOTC's is conflicted, but human, the point Jariten is bringing up. In the OT, Vader is like a robot, and we know he is human only from his breathing which ironically is extremely mechanical. He has no need to lash out as the PT Anakin did, because he has been so consumed by the dark side that he can concentrate his rage into something like a Force choke. That's how he releases the rage, now that all the humanity has left him.

PT Anakin has the same rage, but doesn't know what to do with it. So he lashes out uncontrollably at one point, and only one point, against Sand People who killed his mother. He killed for revenge, which while not respectable, is certainly not nearly as bad as killing for a guy insulting you or screwing up once. The OT Vader kills on a whim, like life is nothing. At least PT Anakin showed signs of remorse, and other than occasional verbal attacks on Obi-Wan is basically normal.

I am by no means defending what Lucas has done to Anakin's character. I hate it, and I hate the character of Anakin, from his acting to his motivation, everything. But this discussion, other than for humorous value, is just stupid, and makes us look like prequel bashers instead of SW fans who happen to hate the prequels.

Also, damn you for actually making me defend the PT.

[J m HofMarN]

Oh come on VWing, Vader chokes you into unconsiousness in maybe five seconds. Anakin whines constantly and makes horrid attempts at humor for hours on end, not to mention the creepy staring if you're a girl. Yeah this was supposed to be a joke but I think the argument still stands that the dark side made Vader a more stable person, which is kinda sad really.

[Paladin]

Vader wasn't really behind blowing up Alderaan. When he and Grand Moff Tarkin were trying to figure out a way to make Leia spill the beans on the location of the rebel base, Tarkin decided to use an 'alternative' form of presuadure and more or less implies on testing the Death Star on the planet.

But in all honesty, though, seeing the 'Anakin the jerk' in AOTC (and more likely so in ROTS) makes me grimace every time I think of Vader. I honesly don't put all that much care into his 'whining and complaining' than I do to the fact that he's arrogent, rude, a complete moron, a raving lunatic, and generally speaking, a horrible human being. If Anakin was really the GOOD man that Obi-wan claimed him to be, I should feel sad at seeing him as Vader, and happy when he's 'redeemed' at the end of ROTJ. Instead, I can't bear to look at him anywhere and I groan at his redemption and just think of it as a crappy way to end his life.

While I'm at this, I might as well bring up the issue of the general lack of humanity in many characters in the prequels. When Anakin (the young angel one, not the 'grown up' bastard) blows up the Trade Federation ship, he gets all happy about the fact that he killed a whole lot of people. No body can handel something like this so calmly and easily, even if you didn't actually see the people die. In ANH, Luke looks like he's saying some kind of prayer when he's flying back to base, and generally reeks of an aftershock that you would expect of someone who just blew up a planet sized battle station.

And if Anakin is bad enough, Padme is even worse. In the DVD version (or so I've heard), after Anakin slaugters an entire village of Sandpeople, all what Padme has to say is 'to err is to be human' and Anakin protests by yelling 'I'm a Jedi! I know I'm better than this.' Apparently life is so ridiculasly cheap that people treat a Jedi throwing a tantrum and killing an entire village of sentiant beings to be so trivial that they're willing to dismiss it as a simple 'error' and it's not all that bad. Puh-lease!

[J m HofMarN]

This will be added to the new DVD of ANH to extend upon the scene where Obi Wan saves Luke from the sand people.

Obi Wan: You would have been dead if I hadn't gotten here when I did and ruthlessly killed all of them as they tried to run away.

Luke: Ummm thanks I guess.

Obi Wan: No problem, I'm a Jedi we're allowed. Anyhow, I saw the direction they were heading in and I figure if you want to do something more fun than shooting womp rats we can go commit horrible genocide.

Luke: Ummm maybe later...?

Obi Wan: Oh come on we'll just claim its a mistake afterwards and if anyone asks they tied your aunt Beru to an easel.

Luke: You know, suddenly dirt farming sounds a lot better to me than going on some damn fool idealistic crucade.