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God real or Fake what do you think?

#31 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 03:00 AM

Barend, I can't believe that if you were God, you wouldn't intervene... especially after recounting that shocking story of that poor, poor girl. It is EXACTLY because of stuff like this that I can only logically believe one of the following -

1. God does not exist.
2. God does exist but he's pretty powerless these days.

or

3. God does exist, he has lots of power but he doesn't care about people.


Re: Evolutionists. The fossil record isn't complete but you do see gradual changes in the bone structures, showing animals slightly changing over a long period of time. You have chimpanzees, who share 97% of the same genes as us. You've got the first feathered animal, a flying dinosaur Archaoperex (no idea on the spelling but I think most know the thing I'm talking about) with virtually the same skeletal structure as Deinonychus (the dinosaur that they based the raptors on in Jurassic Park - real Velociraptors were tiny, tiny critters but the Jurassic Park guys just liked the name). Any, I digress. There is a SHITLOAD of evidence in favour of evolution. What is lacking is conclusive proof. Christianity however, is 100% FAITH. Now, I'm not having a go at anyone who believes in it, as long as they respect the fact it is a leap of faith and not all of us are willing to believe so much on the basis of so little.

I have no problem with people who think differently. What I have a problem with is people who are totally irrational and unreasonable. Let me tell you a story about three people on a boat. There were two guys and one woman. The boat got stranded out to sea, hit a reef or something, and they had to wait for rescuers. One of the guys was a mad Christian and he declared that God would save them so he threw ALL of their provisions, flares and their V-sheet over the side of the boat. Now, a rescue crew did find the boat eventually. But the woman was dead and both of the guys were on the brink of it. And all because this dickhead took his religious beliefs one step too far in the real world.

No, I don't have a problem with Christians. What I do have a problem with is crazy religious nuts. I also don't like having lots of street preachers screaming at me, abusing me and telling me I'm going to hell if I don't join them. If this isn't a violation of the peace, I don't know what is.

So Christians, I'm happy that you've found something that you can really hold onto in life. Good for you. And may you have a rich and fulfilling one, and may we all. But if you want to go crazy at me, preach at me, try to remove evolution books from schools or be a general dick, then I will treat you as such.



Oh, and one other thing...

QUOTE
And enough with the christianity bashing already. This thread calls for God real and fake. Not "reasons why I hate christians".


Sorry, Jordan. I just want to be "trendy". dry.gif
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#32 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 05:30 AM

Well for one thing I agree with a great many of Jane's comments, especially her first statement of beliefs right down to being born Catholic and baptized in the name of the holy mucky muck.

Creationism- Did it ever occur to people that Genesis is not necessarily in conflict with evolution?

Christianity- From the people who brought you the Salem witch trials and the Spanish inquisition comes an all new faith phenomenon. You'll laugh, you'll cry, and it might even touch your heart. It's the Jesus Christ show, and it's coming to BOTHER THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE.

Hinduism- It's like the other religions, but with even MORE gods you can piss off and be smited by!

Islam- We're kinda like Christianity was back during its college years, except in our time explosives are more readily available.

Judaism- We were the bitch religion for a while there, but now we have nuclear weapons and a nice word to lable anyone who disagress with us. Look out, we're Jews and we're on the rise!

God- I believe in the girl, but its an irrational belief based upon nothing but my own ideas... That and I saw a grilled cheese sandwhich once that looked like her.

Heaven- Chill out and float around in clouds forever? I'll take reincarnation thanks.

Hell- Isn't this like the adult version of "the corner"

Satan- Likewise, the adult version of the bogey man. Odd that some who dont believe in god still believe in the devil.

God VS Satan- You know I think it's entirely possible that this whole thing is just kinda blown out of proportion. I think what REALLY happend is more like this:

God: Hey man.
Lucifer: Can I borrow your Starfox cartredge?
God: Yeah sure just bring it back.

Later...

God: Aw man, the start screen is all fucking pixelated. Dude you are so cast out of heaven.
Lucifer: It was like that wehn I got it asshole, bring it on.
God: MICHAEL! LUCIFER'S BEING A DILDO!
Michael: WHY AM I ALWAYS IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR PIDDLY BULLSHIT! I HATE YOU BOTH!!!
God: Ok that's it Michael either boot Lucifer out or you're both out of my appartment.
Lucifer: Man screw you I'll find a cool batchelor pad somewhere else. Smell ya later, god.

Actually in that scenario hell would just be Lucifer's tiny appartment where you have to sit and listen to him talk about what an asshole god is for eternity. Then again I'm sure he'd have a Sega or something so it wouldn't be too bad.

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#33 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 06:11 PM

QUOTE
Satan- Likewise, the adult version of the bogey man. Odd that some who dont believe in god still believe in the devil.



And many that don't believe in God, use his name in vain. laugh.gif
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#34 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 07:44 PM

QUOTE (JYAMG)
Barend, I can't believe that if you were God, you wouldn't intervene... especially after recounting that shocking story of that poor, poor girl.


i would want people to have freedom of choice... the cost of this would be bad people getting away with doing bad things... but that's why if i were providing some form of after life i would reward those who lived a descent life... i personally wouldn't limmit it to people who beleived in me... just people who didn't keep fucking with other people...

if i prevented every bad thing from happening, then what would that do? how would people know the difference from right and wrong if i hid it from them...? how could anyone make a choice? they couldn't...
then i would have no means to judge them... why judge them? because some people are just fucked! and free will seperates the good from the bad...

death is random... if it wern't everyone would just suck up to me at the last minute...

evolution is part of adaption... of course it happens... no one would contest that...
but the theory of evolution , theorises a much larger scale of events...
and i see much wrong with it... if you observe nature you'll see, that creatures do not take all that much time to adapt... and evolution is inconsistent in that it suggests everything took alot longer that i think it would have... i don't think natralists give nature enough credit...
smile.gif

that boat story is nothing by the way...
some crazy bitch cut off her own babys arm the other day, claiming to be fullfilling the text 'if your right arm sins against you, cast it away'

there are crazy people everywhere... and plenty evolutionaries who take the whole survival of the fittest thing too far

people are fucked where ever you go...
i doin't think it's really a pivotal point in the 'does god exist or not' argument... it's about as weak as saying god exists because the bible says he does...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE
You've got the first feathered animal, a flying dinosaur Archaoperex (no idea on the spelling but I think most know the thing I'm talking about) with virtually the same skeletal structure as Deinonychus (the dinosaur that they based the raptors on in Jurassic Park - real Velociraptors were tiny, tiny critters but the Jurassic Park guys just liked the name).


the raptors in jurasic park were about right i though... most scenes they seemed big because they shared alot of time with the kids...
the Deinonychus was a much larger and more robust creature...
they would have been far more terrorfying, cause they are pretty much half way between the velociraptors and the tyrannasaurus rex.

the the Deinonychus has long been my favorite...

their raptors did seem a little bigger in the sequels though...

but pertaining to evolutions 'evidence', there totally pathetic...
the skulls of homo habillus and his more amusingly named friend homo errectus and the rest of the misplaced link family, are 90% modeling clay when you see them at the museum... that's awful lot of projection from cookie size segment of cranial debris... that's a leap of faith... given the variety of skull diversity in living humans today...

it would be like estimating the floor plans and appearance of a house long since demolished based on the brand of septic tank in back...

their appraoch to science is irresponsible and slack... because they are shaping thier findings to fit their belief in a theory, rather than basing what they beleiv on what they find...

don't misunderstand me... i think it's a great field of research... but i don't like their current approch... so much so, i think it deteriorates their credibility...

i hate to sound like an evolution basher... to keep this even i could atttack religion so more... but i'm so busy doing that in so many other threads that i think i'll just assume you all know my stance on that one...

smile.gif

---------------

nice post JM HoFmArN
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#35 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 09:35 PM

Evolution is at odds with the story of Genesis. On day 4, God made the bird of the air and the fish of the sea. On day 5, he made the animals that walk on land.

So, from an evolutionary standpoint, there is no reptile period between fish and birds. The fish just lept out of the sea and started flying!

Look it up.
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#36 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 11:04 PM

With all due respect, I find it hard to understand how anyone could not believe in evolution, regardless of the incomplete nature of the fossil record. When we look at the history of the earth, we see incredible climate changes and enormous varieties of species that constantly disappear to be replaced by others.

We look at the Paleolithic Era and the world is dominated by enormous reptile-like creatures and the only mammals are small rodents. Where the hell did birds, dogs, horses and whales come from? Where did people come from?

Did they just materialise out of thin air one day? Did they just magically pop into existence?

Haven't people ever thought "Isn't it funny how during the Ice Age, we had woolly mammoths and now things are a lot warmer, we have elephants?"

Or "How come in thick jungles, there are pygmy versions of larger animals that live on open plains?"

And just look at chimpanzees and humans - they're almost identical in the gene department. Yet, they swing in trees while we walk on the ground... so notice how they prefer to walk on all fours, having long arms, while we are bipedal, having longer legs. Ever wondered why the hell we have toes? We don't need them. Chimpanzees have toes but they DO use them, to grip things and hang onto branches. And not surprisingly, these toes are longer, more like fingers. Have you never thought that toes might be something left over from our tree-swinging days?

I guess it could all be nothing but a prank. Perhaps God did all of this to trick us. According to the Bible, he enjoys playing sick games with people, so it certainly wouldn't be out of character if the Bible is to be believed. But somehow, I think that even if there was a God who created this world, he wouldn't pull a dirty little stunt like this. JM's right - creationism and evolution can compliment each other (although not if Genesis is taken literally. Regardless of whether they are Christians or not, how can ANYONE take Genesis literally?). God could create the world and it could slowly change. So I don't understand why so many Creationists are so up in arms against the teaching of Evolution. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, they're stuck-up arrogant pricks who are disgusted by the notion that humans are just animals too? It often seems that way.

Regardless, I believe that no matter whether you're an aetheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Pantheist or a follower of Thor, it doesn't make sense to dismiss evolution - because the alternative theory that entire new species just materialise out of nowhere is pretty hard to believe.
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#37 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 11:18 PM

Civilian- This book was written 2000 years ago man, the fact that they even had the right idea was a bleedin myracle. As a potential deity what do you think sounds better "You're related to monkeys" or "I made you in my image and created all life over a period of time"

The bible is Humanocentric (since it's meant to be read by humans) and it may have misconceptions in its pages but that dosnt make it incompatible. Genesis basically states that:

Over a period of time life came to be as it is today.

Seven days in the eyes of god is a fuck long time for us. I think the thing with Creationists is that they're pissed that they didn't come first. They're human supremacists to the highest level possible. Not to mention there are some folks who don't accept evolution because it would mean that humans popped out of Africa and,

"Daggonit I didnt come from that dagblame continent where them darkskinned folks is from."

So as far as I can tell the bible isnt that far out of sync with the truth. The problem is that some people who are too scientifically minded don't see this because they don't want to believe in god and some people who are too ignorant don't see this because they want to go on thinking that they were here first and that they were plopped down in the suburbs and not that they evolved alongside black people.

And speaking of which if God did create us all why did he decide to make people different colors? Is god a calico cat or something? Is he striped with brown and white and red and various other skin tones? Somehow I doubt that. I'm all for diversity but said diversity is a product of evolution.

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#38 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 11:53 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Dec 16 2004, 09:35 PM)
So, from an evolutionary standpoint, there is no reptile period between fish and birds.  The fish just lept out of the sea and started flying!

Look it up.


flying fish, sea-birds. Both come from eggs anyway. So it was a long chapter or an important day. rolleyes.gif


QUOTE (barend earlier that day)
then i would have no means to judge them...


No self-respecting deity, in reference to themself, would use a lower case "i." whistling.gif
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Posted 17 December 2004 - 02:58 AM

Maybe Gods skin works like a mood ring and the color of us humans depended entirely on his body temperature at the point of creation. I mean, maybe.
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#40 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 04:38 AM

I've got some time now before my last class so I might just take one last bash at Barend's point about why God might not intervene or why he'd allow people to be capable of evil deeds in the first place.

Consider this - you are the creator, and you've come to the point where you're making people. Like all other animals, you've given them a craving for red meat so they're going to want to kill things for food eventually. Some may not and may become vegetarians. You've put them in one location and you hope they're happy there but some of them might want to go somewhere else. Fine, so far.

You want to give them freedom of choice. This is fine. I'm with you so far.

Now, the next point. What's freedom of choice without differences in people's personality and desires? What if everybody just wanted to eat coconuts make sand castles? It makes the whole freedom of choice issue a little pointless if all everyone wants to do is eat coconuts and make sand castles.

So you need to give people different personalities, wants and needs. Fine. I'm still with you.

But why the hell would you want to give people the desire to torture other people and animals? Why the hell do you want to give people the potential to invent "clever" ways of executing people, like drawing and quartering them?

You say this point about God letting bad things go on in the world is a weak point. I say go and pull your head out of your ass and put it on the right way 'round.

Now, in itself, the fact that a lot of bad things happen in the world doesn't prove if God exists or not. However, if we pretend for a moment that God DOES exist, and he allows this to go on, then you get the two possibilities I mentioned earlier -

1. He can't intervene.
2. He doesn't care.

Your idea that you would let people do bad things to each other to seperate the good from the bad is sick. It makes you sound like a total asshole. Now, I'd hope that if in real life, you had the ability to save that 9 year old girl from being flogged and executed, that you'd do something about it.

But you just said that if you were the all powerful creator of the world, capable of anything, you'd do nothing. That would make you as bad as the people who are inflicting these acts of cruelty. Because you created a situation where this was possible and then allowed these things to happen.

Now, maybe you would give the girl a wonderful afterlife but I think if she knew that you could have saved her from excruciating agony and a violent cruel death and you did nothing, she would have no love for you.

And your point about allowing these things to go on to seperate the good from the bad is mute. If you were the all-powerful creator, surely you could discern the good from the bad from their intentions long before they commited these deeds. If a man came to a school and started chasing people around with a loaded gun, wouldn't you have seen enough or would you wait until he pulled the trigger before you knew what kind of a man he was?

If this world was made by an all-powerful and conscious creator, and he allows things like this to go on, then that does not bode well for us. If God is just some type of essence that brought the world into being, that's okay. But if not, it's bad news.

However, Christians claim that the world was created by a God who is both

1. All powerful

and

2. Loving


While bad things taking place in the world do not disprove the possibility of there being a God, I believe it pretty much rules out the existence of the Christian God.

And lastly, these things all make a lot more sense in a world that came into existence naturally, with life that developed through random chance and changing conditions.

Lastly, mind you who take on in rational arguments, Barend. You seem to have a very loose grasp on the concept of a logic in a debate. Also, I don't know what your problem is with evolution either. It doesn't sound as though there is any base to your thinking there. Would you mind elaborating a bit more and making something with a bit more of a resemblance to a point?
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#41 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 10:22 AM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Dec 16 2004, 09:18 AM)
Actually there are some great minds out there who are and were christians.  Off the top of my head Benjamin Franklin and Issac Newton



Can't say for Newton, but I thought Franklin was a Deist. He believed in "Nature's God", being the God presented to us by our observations of nature.
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#42 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 01:15 PM

Call me the devil's advocate...

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Dec 17 2004, 04:38 AM)
But why the hell would you want to give people the desire to torture other people and animals?  Why the hell do you want to give people the potential to invent "clever" ways of executing people, like drawing and quartering them?


Well, while we are human, we are also products of our environment and our genes. God would have to control every single meotic cell division in humanity to weed out things that might go wrong. And those are still only speculative. Genotype doesn't command phenotype in all instances. And if He's giving us free choice, then He has to give totally free choice, not just a farce of it. So He can either swap something that may help, but will interfere with this person's will, or he can leave them alone.

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Dec 17 2004, 04:38 AM)
Now, in itself, the fact that a lot of bad things happen in the world doesn't prove if God exists or not.  However, if we pretend for a moment that God DOES exist, and he allows this to go on, then you get the two possibilities I mentioned earlier -

1. He can't intervene.
2. He doesn't care.


If God had to fix things every time something went wrong, we wouldn't learn how to fix them without His help. And if He did this selectively, everyone would try to kiss up to Him to win his favor to be helped with their problems. Soon everybody would be yelling at Him, saying "Hey, how come you helped that guy but not me?" So he leaves people to their own devices so the argument "Well, he helped you get that promotion, why are Ethiopians still starving?" is null and void.

Ok, that's enough of capitalizing the pronouns. It's butchering the English language. Unless God is arrogant, I'm sure he won't mind.

And about the mind, here's a thought to chew on.

Say the soul exists independently of the mind. Now, it's plopped into a human body, so it has to adjust to the structure of the brain, and is at its body's mercy as an instrument of itself.

The best analogy is like you're stuck inside a giant mech, and you don't have any direct connections with the outside world. You're stuck percieving entirely through your mech. So if connections start going bad, what can you do but react to a situation through altered perceptions? If you know something is wrong you can make adjustments, but it still effects you as pilot.

Another little tidbit: As humans we constantly seek to apply reason to everything we see, but sometime shit just happens.
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#43 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 01:34 PM

About Ben Franklin - I heard he was a UU...
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Posted 17 December 2004 - 09:39 PM

I give up. People can re-read my posts if they want to but I'm done on this thread.

- Movie Goer out.
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#45 User is offline   Laura Icon

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 11:07 PM

Ben Franklin was a free thinking Presbyterian who attended churches of many denominations. Technically speaking, Unitarian Universalism wasn't established until the 19th century, although BF went to both U and U churches.

That's what comes from having two UU history experts in the next room.
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