[Jane Sherwood]

It's...difficult to explain exactly what I believe and why. Some of it may actually seem like a nonsensical mix to some people, really, but it just is what it is. I call myself agnostic because I lack any other word for it.

There is a god, or some divine force, or PTB, or whatever you want to call it...it's a weird feeling but I know there's something out there, and I can't really get into anything further without sounding weird and mystic and using odd capitalization...

But when it comes down to things like Christianity or organized religion...no. Just no. I was born and raised Catholic, but the Church itself and religious fanatics drove me away entirely. I admit I haven't had any real tragedy in my life...but...even putting all logic aside, I just have this gut feeling that this is something I should have nothing to do with. It's just wrong. It's not a warm, welcome, loving thing like they try to say it is...there's just something inherently sinister about it. I don't trust it. I don't trust the Church, or it's teachings and methods, or anything that has anything to do with it.

...And that's not even taking history into account...(*shudder*)

I can lead a perfectly happy and virtuous life without it, thank you.



On a lighter note: "I give evolution two opposable thumbs up!"

This post has been edited by Jane Sherwood: 14 December 2004 - 05:08 PM

[Jordan]

"""I don't trust the Church, or it's teachings and methods"""

Same here, I boycot organized churchs too.

[barend]

it's like that great T-shirt
"i like god, i just don't like his fanclub"


not quite as good as
"I fucked the girl from Hanson"

but i think it's more appropriate here...

[Just your average movie goer]

Sorry, Walrus of Plastic. The only reason why I threatened any of our Christian users about it is because I've known a lot of Christians who tend to say really silly things in these situations.

I'm fine now. It's been two years since I lost my mother so I've had the proper time to grieve. I only brought it up because I don't believe that the premature death of a good person is something that would happen in a world created by a loving God.

You see, if I was God and my world looked like our one presently does, I would think "Ahhh - my creation is falling apart!" and do some serious maintenance work.

That's why I suscribe to the theory that if there IS a God, he's either not as powerful as his followers make him out to be or he doesn't really care too much about what goes on down here.

However, I believe that if we're all here by random chance, evolution and the rest of it, what happens in life makes a lot more sense.

[Vwing]

It's funny, I have no idea whether the following is the basis of a story by Mark Twain or whether I made it up by myself, but either way, I like to think that God IS testing the human race. He gives them organized religion with a basis that any reasonable person steeped in logic must reject. Those who reject it pass the test, and are allowed to enter Heaven to help the universe move on in a better direction, for they are the worthy ones. Those who subscribe to it clearly cannot think for themselves and fail the test .

Maybe there is a "God". I actually do like to believe that there is some kind of force out there that created us and binds us, and that humans do have something like a soul, because the hardest thing to admit is that after we die, that's it, just blackness, and there is nothing afterwards. But all religion sucks.

And barend, I also love that T-shirt phrase, though you're absolutely right, for whatever reason, it's not as good as the 2nd one .

Also, I think it shows how horribly conceited and self-important humans, especially today, are. I mean, we're the most prized creation of a being who is all-powerful and all-knowing, and we were, in fact, made in his image (question, God is omnipresent, how does he have an image?)! We're almost just like God! Even the Greeks and Indians recognized that these beings weren't necessarily all-powerful or all-knowing, just very powerful and very wise. Hell, the Indians even had their gods as the animals, and had the humans living equally with them! But we just HAD to go the step further, make us so very important to the very fabric of the universe.

We're such assholes.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 14 December 2004 - 07:42 PM

[Just your average movie goer]

It's funny, I have no idea whether the following is the basis of a story by Mark Twain or whether I made it up by myself, but either way, I like to think that God IS testing the human race. He gives them organized religion with a basis that any reasonable person steeped in logic must reject. Those who reject it pass the test, and are allowed to enter Heaven to help the universe move on in a better direction, for they are the worthy ones. Those who subscribe to it clearly cannot think for themselves and fail the test .

That is a great theory!

You also raised a great point about the need for some kind of religious belief - ie. that none of us are very happy about the idea of there being nothing after death.

I myself believe in life after death for this very reason. It's partly because I cannot understand what would happen to our self-awareness when we die... it seems that it must go on. But if it doesn't, then obviously we're not going to be bothered by it very much. But for the most part, it's just wishful thinking.

I don't suscribe to any of the major theories about what this afterlife is like. But I do choose to believe there is one. It's just in my ideal afterlife, we still have night and day and the natural world. And of course, I also believe that in this afterlife, there is sex with no pregnancy.

I also hope that we can be re-united with our loved ones. I'll guess I'll find out when I get there. But no, I'm not willing to participate in any Flatliners type experiment to find out for you guys.

However, sitting in the clouds, dressed in white gowns, singing praises to God for all eternity isn't my kind of heaven. It's more like hell - kissing the boss's ass for all time. That's gotta suck.


Anyway, I definitely understand people's basic need for some kind of spiritual belief. However, I don't think our mainstream religions provide what we need. They certainly offer nothing that I want.

When it comes to the Bible, I'm a lot like Montezuma. Cortez placed the book in his hands, telling him. "This is the word of God. Through this book, he speaks to me." (or words to that effect, in Spanish of course). Montezuma then had a little read, gave it back and told him. "It doesn't speak to me."

[Jane Sherwood]

As silly as it may sound to some people, this one line basically sums up my view of life after death quite well.

"Let's just keep trying until we get it right..."

[WalrusOfPlastic]

that's it, just blackness

No. No blackness. Why would there be blackness?

It's often said how incomprehensible eternity seems, but in reality it seems, in a culture raised being constantly told by somebody that there is an afterlife, that the concept of an end is even harder to imagine. So we get this idea of eternal blackness. Which is terrifying. I mean, even eternal whiteness would be less frightening (though more head-ache inducing).

This idea that all our thoughts and emotions would stay in tact yet we would be receiving no stimulus is just absurd. Do people who wake from a coma tell you that was the most dreadfully boring thing they ever experienced? No.

But somehow our culture, even those non-religious have come to not be able to shake the idea that our consciousness is a magical invisible complete thing and that it doesn't need our bodies at all. This was perhaps one of the larger reasons I dropped Christianity somewhat officially last year. I mean you see older people and their bodies aren't working so well anymore, and what else, neither are their minds. Where is that soul to save the day? That soul that functions without the need for a body?

Consciousness is just as physical as everything else and it's fairly possible that it simply dissolves into the earth just like a body was meant to. (Coffins are also absurd. I mean why?)

JYAMG, there are incredible beautiful things that can be learned from any situation, God or not. Even in the hardest shit there are an infinite amount of realizations that can be made about the nature of everything, about your relationships, about your self. See, if there was a God I would imagine He/She would be aware of that and would not interfere. (I also hate that our language has no singular non-gender pronoun. It is completely ridiculous that we've come this far without one.)

[Just your average movie goer]

Oh, I got many things out of the situation. I learned how important everyone in my family was to me. It really brought everyone closer together and this stronger bond still remains there now. It taught me how precious life is and not to waste it. It also made me think more about what can I do now for my mother now that she is gone? And honestly, the best thing I can do for her is make the most out of my life.

Regarding the injustice of it all, I said earlier that it makes a lot more sense without a God, or at least without a loving or all-powerful one. But if there is a God, it's strange. What kind of God would create something like cancer? What kind of God would allow millions of people to brutally torment others in his name? Also, what kind of God would create a world, designed to go array.

If you look at the God of the Old Testament, he seems like a bit of a prick to put it bluntly. He makes humans capable of sin, when there was no need for it. And yet, when they do sin, he becomes completely vindictive against them. Well, why would he give them the capacity in the first place? It's as if he is playing some twisted game like a child who tortures small animals.

With all the injustices of the world, the argument that there is a loving God up there doesn't make much sense. People in Japan harpoon whales, others club baby seals, there are people who actually spend years designing torture equipment and then there are other people who use them. Millions of people are starving. People are being hacked up by machetes in the Sudan. Little children are being killed in Iraq (and hostages are being beheaded as if there was no tomorrow). In Africa, millions of people are dying of AIDS. In America, tens of thousands of people are murdered by guns every year.

And I think "Well, big guy. If you're really there, then you should do something about this." However, if you take the standpoint that we're alone here and there's no-one up there watching over this mess, then it makes a lot more sense. I still don't understand it. I don't know why somebody would walk into a Japanese kindergarten and butcher the children with a kitchen knife... but it makes a lot more sense if God is not real.

And if God WERE real, then I'd really like to have a word with him.

[Shawnathan]

I think sometimes if christianity was made up to keep commoners in line years ago. Hey, it's possible.

[Heccubus]

When dealing with the issue of God's existence, I think that it's somewhat ignorant to say for sure whether he does, or does not exist. There is no possible way that anyone alive on this planet can say for sure, so there's really no way of giving such a concrete answer. By saying "no", people often neglect to realize that sometimes people just want to believe in things, and that should be just fine. However, by saying "yes" you ignore certain scientific facts that can prove otherwise. It's definitely not as clear cut as some seem to think that it is.
Certainly, a logical and scientific mind will be more likely to say that God does not exist, as there is no physical proof of His existence, and science can prove that He's not really there. I'm just saying that if people want to believe in God, that should be fine. Belief in a religious figure can provide comfort for some people in times of trial, and it's not good to take that away from them. Having attended a Catholic school, I uncovered a lot of contradictions and exaggerations in some modern sects of Christianity, and that brought about my own disillusion towards religion, but I still had friends who believed avidly in God.
At any rate, I'm rambling here. I just think that people should keep in mind that irregardless of whether or not God exists, the concept of God will probably exist until the end of time, and if we have the choice to believe or disbelieve, why do we spend so much time arguing about it?

[Just your average movie goer]

Very good point, Heccubus. You're right on the money with this one.

We however are stating the reasons why choose to believe what we do, not really arguing.... well, not yet.

One thing that does bother me about Christianity however, is that it so widely accepted as the norm and that if you are a non-believer, many people see you as some type of deviant who needs help.

Surely, the most rational road, being the person who believes what they see and hear with their own eyes, cannot be the deviant in this situation.

[Jordan]

"""Certainly, a logical and scientific mind will be more likely to say that God does not exist""""

Actually there are some great minds out there who are and were christians. Off the top of my head Benjamin Franklin and Issac Newton


And enough with the christianity bashing already. This thread calls for God real and fake. Not "reasons why I hate christians".

[barend]

One thing that does bother me about Christianity however, is that it so widely accepted as the norm and that if you are a non-believer, many people see you as some type of deviant who needs help.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

of course evolutionists are exactly the same...

they defend their precious theory as if it is a fact...
both groups however are religions as far as i'm concearned and i'm not a big fan of either group, but i have freinds who are both...

and at the end of the day it's no different to sexuall orientation or race...
it doesn't matter... it's just a shame that everyone is condescending to anyone believes differently... i think it's a totally weak thing...

what ever you believe is circumstansial...
anyone who thinks any less of someone for what they beleive is asshole who is irretrevably stupid... and reeched the depths of uninlightenment...

don't get me wrong... some beliefs are totally lame...
i just read about a mentally handicap girl in Iran who was sold by her mother as a sex slave, and ended up being bought and sold, to several sick fucks, one of which got her pregnant at the age of nine, a crime for which she was flogged, passed down the line some more and now has been captured for more flogging and execution for her crimes against her religion (and just to remind, against her will)...

now there's a political-religeous system no one has to respect... and at the risk of sounding 'politacally incorrect... i'd like to say those people are fucked!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------

oh, and if i were god... i'd pretty much leave everyone to their thing, otherwise you'd just have a world of usless political slaves who suck up to you and acheive nothing... i mean you could duck your head down and say "oh by the way i exist"
then people would write it down, and pass that message on to generation after generation until people would say "if he really wants us to beleive in him he should duck his head down and say "oh by the way i exist"... then what? people would write it down, and pass that message on to generation after generation until people would say "if he really wants us to beleive in him he should duck his head down and say "oh by the way i exist"... so to proove my existance i'd have to duck my head down every 20-30 bloody years (which in mortal terms would be the equivilant of every 20-30 seconds...), and then i'd be a slave to them...
me: "oh by the way i exist everyone"
them: "cool... can we have stuff"

I'd be their fucking slave!!! and i'm suppose to be god...

so nope! if there is a god, he's doing exactly the right thing by not getting involved... (not to say that there wouldn't be the odd zapping of assholes if i were up there... but then that's why no-ones offered me the job - not buhdist enough i guess)...

and if there isn't a god, he's doing an even better job getting all these people to worship him, when he can't even be bothered existing... now that's the australian way...

just i thought...

[Heccubus]

"""Certainly, a logical and scientific mind will be more likely to say that God does not exist""""

Actually there are some great minds out there who are and were christians.  Off the top of my head Benjamin Franklin and Issac Newton


And enough with the christianity bashing already.  This thread calls for God real and fake. Not "reasons why I hate christians".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am aware of this, I mean that if someone looks at it from the scientific/logical perspective, they're likely to take the agnostic/atheistic stance. I didn't mean to infer that all scientific minds renounce religious faith.