[Vwing]

Your point about the orcs actually brings home a large point JYAMG. In FOTR, though we have Sauruman and Sauron to worry about, who's the real scary villain, the one who everyone's afraid of? It's Lurtz, the head Uruk-hai. Being introduced to him, witnessing his birth and maturity, makes us all the more scared of the other orcs and Uruk-hait. We have a personal villain that our heroes must fight, and so when it comes to the end, we are that much more enthralled, because these are characters, both heroes and villains, who we in some way care about.

In TTT we don't have that head Uruk-Hai, and the battle suffers for it. I actually love the battle, but there is no connection to the fight because there is no true villain in the fight.

Then in ROTK, they try to bring back a Lurtz-like character with the pig orc, and it's just silly, and makes it worse than in TTT. He's not scary-looking, and the things he says are ridiculous. "The time of the orc has come." First of all, he's an Uruk-hai not an orc, and second of all, the orcs are servants to the dark lord! They have no time!

But the inclusion of Lurtz in FOTR really brought the fight scene up a notch because he was truly imposing and scary. TTT was a bit worse, but the battle was still entertaining, if not realistic. ROTK, with its large-scale battles, was in the most need of a personal connection with the villain, and they executed it horribly, leaving the audience either laughing in the pig's scenes or just bored by the overall battle.

I also agree with Civ about the Smeagol/Deagol scene. Hell, personally, I think it's my favorite scene from ROTK. It just went downhill after that.

[Jordan]

I've been saying from the start that Vigo was not right. Eric Bana, ya he would've been a better choice. He looked good with a beard in Troy. Clive Owen, maybe. I envisioned aragorn to be a very dark and stern looking man. One thing that annoyed me about viggo was his terrible accent. Do you remember how he pronounced "nazgul"? In FOTR, when he first begins to tell the hobbits what they are. He goes "they are the nazgul". It sounded so forced and wrong.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 30 December 2004 - 12:06 AM

[Despondent]

It's as if all the cool orcs died in the previous wars and Sauron only had a pack of rejects

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Urik-"low"?


Yes. The orcs of FOTR and TTT really brought the books to life more for me than most anything else. Maybe the ROTK orcs just can't perform in the daylight? Oh, right. There's a Dark Cloud overhead. Can't be that.

I guess they're Sauron's orcs. They don't seem to be as in-tune with their inner-orc as Saruman's.

[azerty]

Eric Bana, the Chopper, ("I never killed anyone who didn't deserve it") would have been a excellent, though scary Aragorn.

How can you tell which actor will be good in a given roll? I saw the "shipping news" the other day, and Cate Blanchett is in it and is totally unrecognizable! If she said "this is what I can do... let me be an elf queen," everybody would laugh their asses off. That's what makes an actor an actor.

If you want to see acting, see Bana as "Chopper", if you can find it outside of Australia.

[Madam Corvax]

Well, I am back. and the thread is still in the first page! Great.

Anyway, it is my opinion too that orcs in ROTK are nowhere as good as in FOTR or even TTT. And the puffed-up just looks as if the director run out of everything (imagination, wit, intuition, you name it) but some spare latex. Reminds me of aliens in Start Trek where they always had some funny bits and peces glued to their heads in various places (but always head – no additional limbs or torsos).

But going back to my list, next thing I have on it is maybe just a small nitpick. When Shelobs wraps Frodo in her web, and Sam thinks he is dead and the orcs come – the last shot, I think, of Frodo, as orcs take him, is with the webs tightly enveloping his throat and chest. How did Sam remove the ring, as he later claims he did (and indeed he produces the ring), when the web is intact???

Then we go back to the siege of Gondor, the pointess scene of confrontation with the Witch King, where Gandalf’s staff is broken. Gandalf only just recently scaref the whole scream of Nazgul, but is no match for the Witch King. WTF?

And then the scene of Denethor pyre. I felt gobsmacked with comic-like imagery – Denethor dragging Pippin “releasing him from the service”, Shadowfax knocking Denethor onto the pyre and lastly Denethor running “flambee” and Gandalf pronouncing him dead before he even wanished from sight. And then am I to believe that he ran like three hundred meters before falling off? Am I really to believe it Mr Jackson? You must have read too much comics books.

And answer to Civilian – I do not have any sort of “affection” to Eowyn , thank you very much. If I can have my say without being Politically Incorrect, this film already has slightly too much affection betwen single sex not-related characters, and I am not talking female.

Now think about it - Frodo-Gandalf, hobbits in general-Gandalf , Aragorn-Gandalf, Legolas-Gimli (although, frankly, what the elf saw in the dwarf after all that belching is beyond me), Boromir-Aragorn, Frodo- Sam , hobbits in general-Frodo (all that prancing on his bed in one of the ending scenes!!).

I really do not mind, please don’t get me wrong, but we don’t get half that much chemistry between the men and women in this film. That is why perhaps it was necessary to “spice up” the “love triangle” which in fact never existed in books (Eowyn from the books would rather die, I think, than tell Aragorn directly about her affection.)

Ok., they made her more girly in the film, but still she is simply the only character I can identify with, because really I can’t identify with Rosie Cotton, Galadriel’s husband is too boring and for sure I won’t identify with a fancy-shmancy elvish princess who cannot make up her mind about a guy and weras impossibly uncomfortable and unflattering dresses.

[Just your average movie goer]

It's always the clothes with you, isn't it? Welcome back, Madam Corvax. Good to see you again. Yes, we've been keeping the thread alive for you.

You made several good points there. And it's funny but no-one (myself included) had brought up the one about Sam taking the ring from Frodo without removing the web but it is a little strange when you see it in the movie. For me, I'm a little disappointed that we didn't get to see Sam hesitating about what to do, as he did in the books. The choices of Samwise Gamgee was one of the more powerful parts of the book. I guess in the end, they didn't have time to include it (afterall, we needed to have room for hobbits jumping on Frodo's bed while everyone stood around and laughed merrily for ten minutes). Anyway, it's a regrettable loss.

Regarding the Witch King defeating Gandalf, I'm glad I'm not alone in detesting this concept. It's ludicrous.

- Eowyn defeated the Witch King. No offence to her but if she could do it, Gandalf could too.

- Although Aragorn didn't kill the Witch King, he did wipe the floor with him in the first movie, and that was when the Witch King had four of his nazgul mates with him as well.

- Gandalf killed a balrog, a far, far, far more powerful foe than the Witch King. Gandalf also defeated Saruman, who is also far, far, far more powerful than the Witch King as well.

- The Witch King didn't defeat Gandalf in the books so why did he get to do it in the movie?

It also seems silly that the Witch King didn't go on to kill Gandalf. Yes, the Rohirrim had arrived but Gandalf was lying on the ground helpless and it would have only taken a moment to finish him off.

In the book however, what happens makes a lot more sense. The two of them are about to fight. Gandalf suddenly turns back the darkness, ending the Witch King's hour. Gandalf is about to let the Witch King have it when Pippin arrives, telling him that Denethor is playing with matches. The Witch King then gets distracted by the arrival of the Rohirrim and as they're both now busy, they decide to postpone the fight until a later date.

The Orcs

Oh, thank you everyone for bringing this up. It is one of my biggest problems with Return of the King. As you said so correctly, Vwing, one of the things that worked so well in The Fellowship of the Ring was the introduction of Lurtz the Urak-hai as a main villain - he was a tangible face of the enemy that stalked the fellowship, something that they could actually fight face to face. The other movies suffered because they didn't have such a villain. And Gothmog the potato-faced orc just didn't cut it. He was too comical, in his voice, appearance and his stupid lines.

They needed frightening orcs - moreso in the third movie than ever before. And they didn't have them. If you look at the orcs in the marching column that Frodo and Sam get lampooned into at the end, they just look like laughing stock. And I swear it, most of the orcs on the Pellenor Fields looked like adolescents, with insecurity to boot.

One of the strangest scenes for me to watch is the taking of Osgiliath. I am watching all these men being beaten up by funny looking little buggers half their size and no matter how often I watch it, I cannot suspend my disbelief. There's one particular bit where a four foot orc is hitting his man in the head with a hammer. The man sort of stands there and cries out, while doing nothing - and he could just hit the orc in the head and knock him over. I don't think anyone would need any particular skills in fighting to beat up these orcs. I've said it many times. I just feel as if I could grab a sword and take them all myself.

Now, I never ever felt that way about the Urak-hai in the first movie. They were frightening. If I had to fight Lurtz, I would probably need a change of underpants at some stage there. I wouldn't like my chances against this guy.

But in Return of the King, hah! I'd take them all - and even the stupid witch king too (even though this is outside the territory of orcs). I just love how he buries that flail in the dirt and then needs three seconds to lift it up again. Every time he swung that flail, there was a nice little window of time which would have been perfectly sufficient for me to take his head off. Perhaps this problem would have been avoided if somebody in the design department knew what Tolkien was referring to when he wrote that the witch king used a mace. So many people think a mace is a ball on a chain and it's not! That is a flail. A mace is more like a metal club than anything else.

Anyway, that's a different rant.

The orcs in The Fellowship of the Ring were frightening. There, the threat of the orc seemed real. The orcs in The Two Towers were a bit of a mix, but those half-naked berserkers who leapt off the ladders and just killed everyone near them were pretty scary. And we did see an urak-hai nearly singlehandedly kill Aragorn and Gimli (that huge bastard that grabbed both of them and hoisted them around so his mates could spear them).

The orcs in Return of the King however, were just a joke.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 30 December 2004 - 09:47 PM

[Lord Aquaman]

You know this is how the Eowyn/Witch King fight originally played out...

[Eowyn and Witch King fighting; Eowyn very narrowly slices off the Witch King's left arm]
EOWYN: "Surrender, demonic fiend!"
WITCH KING: "Ha! Tis but a scratch!"
EOWYN: "A scratch?! I just whacked your arm off!"
WK: "No you didn't!"
E: "Well what's that, then?!" [indicates severed arm]
WK: "I've had worse."
E: "You liar!"
WK: "Come on, ya sissy!" [they start dueling again, and Eowyn very narrowly slices off the Witch King's right arm]
E: "Victory is mine, villain!" [Eowyn walks over towards Theoden and starts looking for a way to dislodge him from the horse; the Witch King comes over and kicks her in the side] "Ow! What the-"
WK: "Come on then!" [kicks Eowyn again]
E: "What?!"
WK [as he kicks at her]: "Have at you!"
E: "You're a brave one, but the fight is mine!"
WK: "Oh, had enough, eh? Going scardy cat on me, eh?"
E [annoyed]: "Look you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left!"
WK: "Yes I have!"
E: "Look at your sockets!"
WK: "Just a flesh wound!" [kicks at her again]
E: "Look stop that!"
WK: "Chicken! CHICKEN!" [kicks her in the butt]
E: "I'm warnin' you, I'll have your leg!"
WK: "Hey, your rump's sagging back there, you should really lay off the cookies!"
E [goes red in the face]: "Right!" [Eowyn cuts off the Witch King's leg; the Witch King starts hopping up and down on one leg]
WK: "Right! I'll do you for that!"
E: "You'll what?!"
WK: "Come here, have at you!" [Witch King tries to charge at her, she steps aside]
E: "Oh stop it now, what are ya gonna do? Ya gonna bleed on me?!"
WK: "I'm indestructible!"
E: "You're a loony."
WK: "The King of the Nazgul always triumphs! Have at you! HAVE AT YOU! Come on then!" [continues trying to charge at her; Eowyn cuts off his other leg; Witch King falls to the ground and finally notices that he's at a disadvantage]
E: "You were saying?"
WK: "Alright, we'll call it a draw." [Eowyn walks away] "Oh I see, runnin' away eh?! Come back here, you yellow [BLEEP], piece of [BLEEP], son of a [BLEEP], motherf[BLEEP]er! I'll bite your legs off!"
E: "Oh screw it." [Eowyn walks back over and stabs the WK in the face with her sword, and you know the rest]

I think Peter Jackson and his band of cutthroats actually admitted on their extended edition documentaries that they knew from the get go they couldn't get the orcs for ROTK to match the Uruk-Hai for power and fright. The fact that the orcs we see have no real authority or fright power is proof that the crew didn't try particularly hard with them. And to think the original orcs were trained to walk like apes... where's Ron Perlman (TV's "Beauty & The Beast"; 2004's "Hellboy") when you need him?

The extended edition of ROTK features a song sung by Liv Tyler that was intended for the "Arwen's Vision" scene [which was originally intended to be used in "Two Towers"]. The song is sung during the added "house of healing" scene when Aragorn brings Eowyn back to life or out of her coma or whatever.

And yeah, that is a mystery - how'd Sam get the ring off of Frodo if Frodo was all covered in web? Perhaps the web around Frodo's neck was weak enough that Sam was able to pry it out, we may never know.

If you could change anything about Denethor, anything at all, what would you change?

They probably changed Eowyn so that people wouldn't confuse her with Galadriel. Two icey blondes you know, it's hard to keep 'em straight, even if one is a creepy elf princess.

Have we debated why the extended edition scene of Eowyn waking and telling Aragorn of her dream takes place between her and Aragorn and not her and Faramir?

For that matter, have we ever debated why there's no family-reunion-moment at the end of "Two Towers" between Eowyn, Eomer and Theoden after the Helms Deep battle? Why do we immediately see her hugging Aragorn in relief? I know Eowyn regards Aragorn as sex-on-legs, but shouldn't we see some kind of sibling bond between her and Eomer, some sign of relief that he's still alive after all the crap Grima pulled to get rid of him?

You know, I was thinking about the opening of ROTK where we see Gollum in Smeagol mode, and he looked kind of creepy even before he became Gollum. Did anyone feel that the scene happened too fast? A friend of mine complained that it kind of flew by without enough depth or subtlety or meaning.

Look closely at Gandalf's white costume, and you may see some thin golden lining.

Wasn't it indicated at one point that Gimli had a thing for Galadriel? Though I don't see why he would - Galadriel creeps me out. Then again, Cate Blanchett in general creeps me out.

Thinking back on the scene with the killer elephants, I couldn't help but notice that Eomer is one hell of a spear-chucker. I know he's probably perfected this particular skill over the course of his combat career, but he managed to chuck that spear at a guy steering an elephant of Godzilla/King Kongian proportions! I'm no expert with math and measurement, but that guy steering the elephant had to be a good couple of stories up in the air, so that's really stretching it.

Speaking of which, did anyone expect Godzilla & King Kong to show up with the elephants at Pelenor Fields?

If the song "Into the West" had been sung by someone like Enya and not Annie Lennox, would all you anti-ITW/Annie Lennox folk be more happy?

[Just your average movie goer]

Um, why do you insist on quoting the King Arthur/Black Knight Monty Python scene over and over again? We all saw the movie too. Enough already.

Okay, onto the rest of your post...

I think Peter Jackson and his band of cutthroats actually admitted on their extended edition documentaries that they knew from the get go they couldn't get the orcs for ROTK to match the Uruk-Hai for power and fright.

Yeah, I noticed that. Peter Jackson's analogy of how having them walk like apes looked as though they were babies with full diapers was apt. However, having recognised the problem, he failed to fix it. And in trying to make all these orcs look different and individual, they came across looking comical.

What I don't understand is why they didn't make their orcs look like the ones in the prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring. Those creatures were Mordor orcs and they were frightening. When I was waiting to see Return of the King, I always imagined that the orcs we would see would be like those orcs we saw at the start of the first movie. Why they needed to make potato-head, skeletor and Darth Maul is beyond me.

I also think that if they had the great darkness, this could have improved things a lot too. I am dumbfounded... DUMBFOUNDED ... as to why they did not include the great darkness. What's sillier is that in the Extended Edition, it's even referred to. Gandalf tells Pippin about the broil of fume that Sauron was sending ahead of his host to ease their passage across the plains. It sounded very exciting... except we never saw it. The orcs arrived in plain daylight. And even during the night-time sequence, there's a few shots of daylight. Watch the pre-dawn bit where Gandalf tells the soldiers to pull back to the second level of the city. We see an overhead shot of the city in darkness and then we see soldiers running through a gate. And behind that gate was LIGHT BLUE SKY AND SUNSHINE!!! It's really dodgy.

The extended edition of ROTK features a song sung by Liv Tyler that was intended for the "Arwen's Vision" scene [which was originally intended to be used in "Two Towers"]. The song is sung during the added "house of healing" scene when Aragorn brings Eowyn back to life or out of her coma or whatever.

That song was by Liv Tyler? Wow! I have a new level of respect for Liv... I loved that song. It was beautiful.

And yeah, that is a mystery - how'd Sam get the ring off of Frodo if Frodo was all covered in web? Perhaps the web around Frodo's neck was weak enough that Sam was able to pry it out, we may never know.

On that topic, here's another oddity. How come the orc captain didn't think something was strange about Frodo's head being uncovered? Shelob has stung this guy and wrapped him up... but for some reason, partially unwrapped his head and then left him there? What a stupid orc for not being able to put two and two together. I think it's a shame that they wasted the opportunity to have the orcs running scared as they did in the book.

Do you all remember what happened there? The orcs realised that someone had got the better of Shelob. Initially, they were quite happy about that because they hated her too. But then Sam starts killing them, trying to get Frodo back and suddenly they were in a panic. They thought there was an elvern warrior running around the place and taking them out.

That was just great - probably the most entertaining part of the book - and it's not even given a nod in the movie. What a wasted opportunity.

If you could change anything about Denethor, anything at all, what would you change?

Tough question. I never liked him in the books to be quite honest. So when people discuss how the movie changed him into a dispicable character, I think to myself "But he was a dispicable character." Although, I think the Extended Edition made him a much more sympathetic character. We see more of his grief and we see WHY he was so angry at Faramir. They really should have left that scene in where Denethor finds out that Faramir let Frodo go with the ring. Without it, the scene where Denethor sends Faramir to his likely death just doesn't make sense. It also makes Denethor seem like a shallow evil bastard with no motivation.

One of the things I really like about the Extended Editions is that they really help us to understand the actions of certain characters. They help a lot of scenes make sense.

The stupid thing is that the writerrs made radical departures from the books with some characters. And with the full exposition of information, we could still understand what was going on - except with the theatrical releases, they cut that stuff out. Let's look at the following examples -

Faramir

In The Two Towers, Faramir becomes a tormentor of hobbits and small people, dragging Frodo towards Minas Tirith, after uttering the line about the "chance for Faramir, captain of Gondor, to show his quality." Do we all remember that? I did. I sat there, listening as he said the line, thinking "Good man." and then he said "The ring will go to Gondor." WHAT? That just didn't make any sense.

However, if they had included the flashback scene that appeared on the Extended Edition, it WOULD have made sense. So for me, that flashback scene is one that is essential to the movie.

Gollum

In Return of the King, Gollum decides for some reason to trick Frodo into sending Sam away before going into Shelob's lair. When I saw this, I just thought "Why?" The plan was going well. The hobbits were going to get eaten - and as Gollum particularly hates Sam, you'd think he'd definitely want Sam to get gobbled up as well. So again, I was left scratching my head and wondering what the hell was going on.

Then we come to the Extended Edition and we see a short one minute scene... just before the aforementioned one where Sam tells Gollum that he's onto him. Sam then goes onto say that he finds out that Gollum is up to something, he's GONE.

Once I saw this, I thought "Aha! This is why Gollum wants to get rid of Sam earlier." So again, this is an essential scene because we need it to understand what was happening in the movie. And as it was only a minute long, its exclusion from the theatrical realise is even more puzzling.


And so it was with Denethor. Suddenly with these new scenes in the Extended Edition, I found myself understanding where he was coming from. At one point, he even seems sane for a moment - when he looked down at the city and said "Why do the fools fly? Better to die sooner than later. For die, we must." The way he says it just makes it so clear that he really is in genuine despair, as opposed to just being a raging lunatic.

On that note, I think if there was something I could change about Denethor in the films, it would be to show his grief more prominently. For when he see his grief, we can better understand him. I also think some scenes with the palantir would have helped as well. Because we know that's one of the main reasons why he is losing his mind.

Lastly, I think he shouldn't have been killed off as running, leaping flaming torch. It's just a terribly cheesy ending for someone who is much akin to a Shakespearian tragic figure. I think it would have been better if he had died quietly on the funeral pyre, his life just leaving his body peacefully as it no longer had the strength to hang on. I just wish they'd let the man die with dignity.

Have we debated why the extended edition scene of Eowyn waking and telling Aragorn of her dream takes place between her and Aragorn and not her and Faramir?

What's there to debate? First you need someone to say they like or hate that scene. And then you need somebody with an opposing point of view.

However, we can discuss it if you like. I am with Madam Corvax on this matter. It was a nice scene but that time could have been to put to better use, such as a few more minutes between Eowyn and Faramir.

I do like the gesture of the scene though. The dream was originally Faramir's in the book and I guess they gave it to Eowyn because they couldn't work out how to incorporate it with Faramir. But it's a nice gesture that they included it because it is in fact a dream that haunted Tolkien in real life - something directly autobiographical that he included in his writing.

For that matter, have we ever debated why there's no family-reunion-moment at the end of "Two Towers" between Eowyn, Eomer and Theoden after the Helms Deep battle? Why do we immediately see her hugging Aragorn in relief? I know Eowyn regards Aragorn as sex-on-legs, but shouldn't we see some kind of sibling bond between her and Eomer, some sign of relief that he's still alive after all the crap Grima pulled to get rid of him?

Good point. Although, you've misused the word "debate" again. Rather than asking if we've debated something, it would be more correct to ask if we have discussed something.

You know, I was thinking about the opening of ROTK where we see Gollum in Smeagol mode, and he looked kind of creepy even before he became Gollum. Did anyone feel that the scene happened too fast? A friend of mine complained that it kind of flew by without enough depth or subtlety or meaning.

I agree. Smeagol was already looking pretty dodgy in that scene. And he was using an unnatural voice far too early. However, the biggest failing in that scene is that Smeagol did not show the slightest bit of remorse at the moment when he realised he had murdered his cousin. He should have been horrified. We needed to see that this is something he would never have done under normal circumstances - that this is something completely and utterly against the very nature of who he is.

But in the movie, it just looks far too casual. I almost expected him to say "Oh crap, I've killed Deagol. Aunty Leisel's gonna be pissed."

[Lord Aquaman]

Sorry about the overuse of the Monty Python King Arthur scene. I have a certain fondness for that sketch... whenever I feel down, I either watch that scene or think of that scene and it puts me in a better mood. That or the bridge scene. Or the Camelot-musical moment ["Let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place..."]

And sorry for the misuse of the word "debate". It just seemed like a good word to use at the time.

Maybe we shouldn't be surprised at Liv Tyler singing the "house of healing" song, seeing as how she's the daughter of the Arrow-Smith singer.

I agree; "The Two Towers" flashbacks should have been in the theatrical cut. It would have built more sympathy for the Faramir character (unless you can convince yourself to sympathize with him for being a man under pressure). Perhaps they should have taken out some of the Helms Deep combat scenes [specifically the ones that show Gimli acting like an idiot].

You know, Gandalf said that Denethor would remember that he loved Faramir before the end. Apparently the only way for him to remember it was to try to burn himself alive with the presumably dead Faramir. Maybe I'm missing something here, I dunno...

I think the Extended Edition DVD's mess with the sound quality of the films. There are moments where I feel like certain bits of dialogue have been distorted. Does anyone else think the sound's a bit off?

[Lord Aquaman]

crud... something's wrong with the page

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 01 January 2005 - 03:02 AM

[Lord Aquaman]

And sorry for posting this right on top of the other post, but did the costumes worn by the Riders of Rohan remind anyone of vikings? They kind of made me think of vikings, even though I don't think that's what Peter Jackson was going for. If I remember the making of docs right, PJ and his partners in cinematic crime wanted to make the Rohan folk look like Saxons and the Gondor folk look like Normans as a way to emphasize this idea that Rohan was working on a much tighter, less flexible budget than Gondor (that Rohan is "lower-class" royalty and Gondor is "higher class" royalty). This could be seen in the armor - most of the Gondor soldiers wear big, blackish-gray, heavy plated armor, while the Rohan soldiers were lighter chainmail armor with what look like very durable every-day clothes. Presumably the Rohirrim can't afford the fancy plated armor so they go with the chainmail armor 'cause its cheaper and lighter (don't want to burden the horses with too much weight); the exception being King Theoden, who wears bulky plated armor that makes him look like a gladiator (understandably you'd want the king to be best protected of all if he's on the battlefield). Eomer's armor, meanwhile, has elements of chainmail and plated armor fused together, possibly as a rank thing (less than the king but still a very important authority figure on the battle field; he looked kind of like a samurai, actually).

Not sure why this posted twice.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 01 January 2005 - 03:01 AM

[Supes]

And Lord Aquaman, I have seen the Darth Maul orc.  He's rather odd looking... but most of the Return of the King orcs are.  It's as if all the cool orcs died in the previous wars and Sauron only had a pack of rejects and retards left over when it was time to launch his final assault.  It's a good thing he had so many of the little buggers because taken individually, those orcs weren't much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's funny you should talk about the look of the orcs, because I watched ROTK through 2 days ago and found that I was recognising a couple of orc faces in the crowd. It appears that a few of the moulds were used repeatedly through the films. I know that this is to be expected from a production point of view, but I also found myself say, "Hey, didn't that orc get killed by Treebeard and Aragorn and ..."

I guess the thing that changes with the orcs between FOTR and ROTK is the demenour of the orcs. Someone mentioned it earlier, I think it was you JYAMG, but they become less menacing.

[Just your average movie goer]

I was watching it again recently and I think I've found another part of the problem - something that goes beyond their appearances. They've given a lot of the orcs personalities and quite a few of them are rather insecure.

The orcs look worried about things, back away nervously sometimes and bicker amongst themselves. I think generally less dialogue helps to make these types of villains more frightening.

Some dialogue is okay. "Find the halflings!" sounds great everytime I hear it. And the Urak-hai arguing with the orcs over the fact that Merry and Pippin are not to be eaten is pretty scary.

But Gothmog's one liners are not. I also think that while it may have looked good on paper, it wasn't a good idea to have Gothmog giving so many orders to his orcs. When the Rohirrim arrive and Gothmog tells the army to form ranks, it looks a little bit silly. It appears that these particular orcs wouldn't have been able to organise themselves.

Look at the Urak-hai army in The Two Towers on the otherhand. Yes, they are given an unfair advantage by virtue of being huge, very strong creatures. However, that aside, there is another difference. They appear to be an organised army. You don't hear anyone giving them orders. They know what they've got to do and they do it. The guys trying to batter down the door just keep at that, while the gang responsible for demolishing the wall were all set to go. The guys at the front kept the ladders going up. And when Gandalf and the calvary arrived at the end of the battle, they all organised themselves into defensive positions straightaway.

Simply put, the orc army in The Two Towers was efficient and organised. The army in Return of the King was not.

The only other thing I can think of is the armoury. There is something very strange about the orcs' armour in Return of the King. The helmets are rather odd and the plated chainmail (not sure exactly what they were going for there) looks a bit like fish scales. There's also far too much colour there as well. And I don't know about you guys, but I've noticed an inordinate amount of bright red tunics under the orc armour. And it doesn't look very antique.

I think if they had worn visored helmets and ashen black plate armour, this would have helped matters tremendously.

The last thing is that, outside of walking on a white sand beach, I've never ever seen such blaring bright sunshine as that which appeared on the battle of the Pellenor Fields in Return of the King. With so much bright sunshine, it makes it very hard to be afraid. Anything would have been better than that. Here is a short list of alternatives -

- an overcast day.
- a rainy day.

or (and this is my favourite)

- the Great Darkness.

[Lord Aquaman]

(and this is my favourite)

- the Great Darkness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is the Great Darkness from?

Peter Jackson said in the DVD's on the EE of ROTK that he wanted the orcs to appear as though they had stolen and pieced their armor together from whatever bits of metal just happened to be lying around. Why I'm not quite sure...

Has anyone ever wondered why the theatrical version of ROTK has the palantir just lying there in the mote surrounding the tower of Isengard? I think we all know that PJ wanted to get things moving along, but what exactly led him to the conclusion that the perfect/better opening for ROTK, as opposed to the death of Saruman, was to just have the palantir lying there shining in the water for Pippin to find? How could he just assume that audiences would be too stupid to ask why it was lying there? If it had been up to me, I probably would have chosen to have Grima steal the palantir when Saruman isn't looking and then throw it out one of the tower windows in a fit of passion. That may not sound very good but they should have given the audience an explanation as to how the palantir got in the water.

Did the Witch-King remind anyone of Darth Vader in any way/shape/form? Maybe it's just me since they're both big and decked out in black and they get their comeuppance at the hands of blonde haired folk and are essentially taken from the 'Black Knight' archetype...

[Despondent]

I don't recall, maybe the palantir wanted to be found.

the orc army in the first two films had a better soundtrack, didn't they? Those drums were a wonderful unifying device.