[Lord Aquaman]

Yeah, I liked the drums.

Was anyone reminded of "Braveheart" when the Riders of Rohan charged and subsequently ran down the orcs that were lined up in front of them with their stick-spear javelins? I remember watching that thinking "It's like when Mel Gibson and his Scottish rabble took those handmade spears and stabbed the British horse riders, but in reverse..." the reverse being that I was rooting for the riders and not the ones on the ground.

[Just your average movie goer]

No. Return of the King is a good movie, while Braveheart is a bad movie. I don't see how anyone could get the two confused or be reminded of one, while watching the other. Please don't bring up Braveheart again ~ 'tis an awful movie.

What is the Great Darkness from?

I'm not quite sure what your question means exactly so I'll provide you with two answers to cover both contingencies.

1. The Great Darkness is from the books. Tolkien wrote that during the battle of the Pellenor fields, Minas Tirith was covered in an unnatural depressing darkness that lasted for three days (which is how long the battle was supposed to have lasted too).

2. The Great Darkness is formed by a broil of fume, thick clouds that appear black from volcanic ash that just completely blacks out the sky.

Has anyone ever wondered why the theatrical version of ROTK has the palantir just lying there in the mote surrounding the tower of Isengard? I think we all know that PJ wanted to get things moving along, but what exactly led him to the conclusion that the perfect/better opening for ROTK, as opposed to the death of Saruman, was to just have the palantir lying there shining in the water for Pippin to find? How could he just assume that audiences would be too stupid to ask why it was lying there? If

Agreed. The scene in the theatrical cut is just unforgiveably bad. I think it wouldn't matter how much knowledge about the story you took into the cinema with you. Even if you hadn't seen the first two movies, I think you would notice that something was extremely odd about that scene.

I also don't like the fact that they not only failed to include the proper scene, but they changed what happened in the story. That's NEVER happened in either of the previous theatrical editions. With the previous movies, the Extended Editions were merely longer versions of the same stories. With Return of the King, they are radically different. In one version (the good one), Saruman has a heated exchange with Gandalf and his mates and is killed. In the other, we are to assume that he sits in his tower under house arrest for the rest of time, with Treebeard and his buddies stuck outside on guard duty. And Gandalf's line in the theatrical release about Saruman having no power anymore could be one of the weakest moments in cinema history.

The proper scene should have been in the theatrical edition for several reasons -

1. It's vastly superior.
2. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than Pippin just finding the palantir in the water with no explanation.
3. Saruman was the main villain of the last two films.
4. They had the time to put it in (there were plenty of other wasted minutes that could have been axed instead of this scene).

But most importantly,

5. EVERYBODY wanted to see it.

I don't recall, maybe the palantir wanted to be found.

That's great.

the orc army in the first two films had a better soundtrack, didn't they? Those drums were a wonderful unifying device.

That's a good point actually. And I have to say I missed the Urak-hai/Isengard theme in the third film. Although in the Extended Edition, we do get to hear it during the confrontation with Saruman. Ah... I miss the Urak-hai and the battle of Helm's Deep when I'm watching the battle of the Pellenor Fields.

[Lord Aquaman]

I hear that Miranda Otto's going to be in the upcoming remake of War of the Worlds. She'll probably be the film's one saving grace.

My bad about the Great Darkness. Still haven't read through all of the LOTR books yet. I managed to read The Hobbit but not the LOTR trilogy.

I love that "What the hell?" exp​ression on Theoden's face when he sees the man eating elephants approaching.

Does anyone else think the sound was altered a bit on the extended edition DVDs? I think in some places the dialogue that was very easy to hear before has been drowned out/distorted by beefed up noise.

Orlando Bloom originally read for the part of Faramir. John Rhys Davies originally read for Denethor. Just a little trivia you might find amusing.

The wizard staffs breaking into millions of pieces instead of just breaking in half is derived from the Hollywood notions of "Bigger is better" and "Give the audience more bang for their buck". They probably think "oh anyone can break a staff in half, lets have ours blow up matrix style."

[Madam Corvax]

My dear colleagues, I wish I had time to post these days... But my life at work is just falling apart at the moment. New Yead is really bad time... Hope you forgive me.

I will be back, but only after I have some time to breathe... But I am thinking of you all.

[Lord Aquaman]

My dear colleagues, I wish I had time to post these days... But my life at work is just falling apart at the moment. New Yead is really bad time... Hope you forgive me.

I will be back, but only after I have some time to breathe... But I am thinking of you all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We miss you, MC!

[Just your average movie goer]

I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope things get better for you soon. Like Aquaman said, we miss you.

We'll keep this thread going for you for when you get back.

Try to get some rest.

[Madam Corvax]

It is nice to hear that ... I miss you guys too. I suppse afther 15th January I should be more free.

I just want to add that I agree with JYAM that ROTK EE is a different film. It has never occured to me beofre, but it is true. TTT and FORT TV had just some details missing, while ROTK is a different story.

And as JYAMG said, I am always into clothes, so I just want to mention one thing - the off-white dress that Eowyn is wearing in the Houses of Healing scenes is the ultimate dress of the Trilogy. I wold kill for a dress like that. It is unbelievably cool and well-cut. It just floats around her. I am truly, totally in love with that dress.

[Just your average movie goer]

It is a really nice dress, isn't it? It looks great.

It's good to see you again, even if it's only a brief stop-over. Hope things at work are calming down for you. Hang in there.

[Lord Aquaman]

It is nice to hear that  ... I miss you guys too. I suppse afther 15th January I should be more free.

I just want to add that I agree with JYAM that ROTK EE is a different film. It has never occured to me beofre, but it is true. TTT and FORT TV had just some details missing, while ROTK is a different story.

And as JYAMG said, I am always into clothes, so I just want to mention one thing - the off-white dress that Eowyn is wearing in the Houses of Healing scenes is the ultimate dress of the Trilogy. I wold kill for a dress like that. It is unbelievably cool and well-cut. It just floats around her. I am truly, totally in love with that dress.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're looking forward to the post-15th of January.

Look closely at the end of the shot where Legolas goes surfing down the oliaphaunt's snout/nose, you may notice for a second that he appears to be riding the shadow of the snout/nose.

That was a nice dress (kind of reminded me of this scene from the end of Terry Gilliam's Brazil), but then again, Miranda Otto looks good in pretty much all her LOTR costumes. Now I know this is a stupid question, but what exactly is the difference between "white" and "off-white"?

Yeah, the story DID feel different in the EE of ROTK.

A lot of fans appear to be very disappointed with the shafting of the Eowyn/Faramir romance. I'd like to ask all our die hard LOTR fans here, what do you feel is the heart or essence of the E/F pairing?

When asked which LOTR character he felt was most like himself, writer JRR Tolkien said that Faramir came the closest to being like him.

I think we might be running out of topics to attribute to this Lord of the Rings thread.

[Just your average movie goer]

Don't say that.

what exactly is the difference between "white" and "off-white"?

Off-white has the faintest trace of another colour in it. It could have a tiny hint of blue or yellow or green. But it's so minute that it still appears almost white in colour. Off-white thereby means something that is very close to white but just slightly different.

I'd like to ask all our die hard LOTR fans here, what do you feel is the heart or essence of the E/F pairing?

I thought it was the fact that Faramir changed her - he breathed some life into her icy cold soul. In the book, Eowyn cast away her life as a shieldmaiden when she fell in love with Faramir. Faramir taught her that there were better things in life than dying in battle. This fact is commonly understood by most of us but in the book, Eowyn fantasised about dying heroically every night.

But essentially, without playing on the fact that Eowyn was a psychotic in the novels, the important part of the relationship is that Faramir gave Eowyn hope. This is what they tried to do in the movie and it was a nice scene. The problem is that it was just too damn short. They should have said a few more words and allowed the audience to savour the moment.

But it seemed that the only moments we were allowed to savour in the movie were ones of Frodo going into one of his endless trance-like stares because of the ring. I tell you what, I think that was the biggest time-wasting device of both this film and The Two Towers. Watching Frodo walking towards Minas Morgul was just painful and irritating. I just felt like shouting at the movie "Come on! We're wasting time here!" I don't remember Frodo always going into trances and going sleepwalking with the ring in the books. But I digress...

The other important part of the Faramir/Eowyn romance is that it resulted in the union of Gondor and Rohan by a royal marriage. Now this is a big deal ~ but their happy little glance at the Star Wars awards ceremony ... er... I mean, Aragorn's coronation .... is the only indication of this that we are given.

When asked which LOTR character he felt was most like himself, writer JRR Tolkien said that Faramir came the closest to being like him.

Yeah, I'd heard that too. I don't think he'd be happy with the disservice that was done to Faramir's character in the movies. Yes, Return of the King and the Extended Editions fix a lot of the problems... but the thing is he should never have been a prick to Frodo in the first place.

[Despondent]

I always kinda felt Eowyn was on the (would-be) rebound.
the dance is almost over, and she's looking for a partner. Spots one, moves to the floor. balloon drop, all fall down.

plus, that's what I presume happened from the theatrical cut!


ps, we miss you Madam C! Louis barks hello.

[Lord Aquaman]

A site I once went by offered this description of the Faramir/Eowyn relationship -"It's all about a nice, perceptive guy offering comfort and security to an emotionally and sexually repressed blonde woman."

There have been examinations as to why an Aragorn/Eowyn romance, which Tolkien originally toyed with, would not have worked - Aragorn's sense of "pity" for Eowyn would have eventually undermined the relationship and caused it to fall apart. The great thing about Faramir is that he offered Eowyn love without pity, or so they say.

That scene should have gone longer - it left some viewers with the impression that "Damn, Eowyn's easy." and "Damn, that Faramir's one smooth player!"

The Frodo-junkie stares were tiresome, kind of like how Spider-Man/Peter Parker always has a pity-me-speech (not that I dislike those films; they're fun in a harmless summer time kind of way).

If Tolkien were still alive, do you think he would have had a say as a creative consultant in PJ's films?

Christopher Lee's the only member of the cast to have actually met Tolkien. As we all know, Lee was very fond of the LOTR novels and Tolkien himself even said that Lee would make a good Saruman.

[Madam Corvax]

Concerning off-white. You see, I am not a native speaker and I just hope you all approve of my selection of vocabulary. This dress of Eowyn, it wasn't exactly white, at least not in the shots. It might be an effect of image enhancing, because these scenes definitely were enhanced, by adding more grey and sepia. Therefore it is difficult to assess the real colour of the dress. In real life it might be dazzling whitte, it just looked sort of silvery-greyish white to me.

Despondent, thatk you for your kind words. Hug Louis from me! I popped in today, just to check if this thread has not disapeared.

And Lord Aquaman... thank you for all your nice imput. But since it is my thread, I would like to ask you something. I would be really grateful if you take into consideration a following hint: please be more considerate for people who owe at home a crappy dial-up connection. In the Starry NIghts thread you added reply, quoting the whole previous episode. What for? Please, don't do it again. The images take ages to load, and they would have to be loaded twice now.

And it would be better not to flood the forum with too many threads. I noticed that in the Movie Theatre it is mostly your threads. I think it is better just to stick to several, in which people might be interested, but some people do not have time to read them all - even if I wanted, I would not be able to do it. I hope you are not mad at me, but these are just friendly hints.

And concerning Faramir/Eowyn romance, if I may add my opinion as a woman.
My views of the romance were for ever spoilt by the book I read, by a Russian author, called "the Last Ringbearer". It presents slightly different version of events that took place during the War of Ring. Well, Aragorn is not a very nice character in this book. In short, he uses Eowyn in a not very gentleman like manner and goes on to marry Arwen.

But nevertheless, the reason that Eowyn and Faramir end up together in BOTH VERSIONS is because Faramir fell in love with her. And what convinced her are the following words of Faramir according to Tolkien.

"I would loved you even if you were a queen of GOndor now"

Tell you what, guys. No woman, especially the one hurt as Eowyn was, would have resisted such confession. I wouldn't.

[Just your average movie goer]

That's true actually. Girls want a guy who truly loves her. When I took my girlfriend out on our first date, I just told her how wonderful I thought she was and how she made me feel. If you meet the right girl (or guy), that's the way to do it. Let them know how much you love them. You can't go wrong.


You can all thank me for my good advice later.

Good to see you back, Madam Corvax. And I'm glad this thread is still going ~ it's my favourite.

I have another point about Return of the King that I'd like to raise, something we haven't mentioned before -

The ridiculous ageing of Bilbo.

I mean, does this bother anyone else? I really liked Bilbo in the first movie. He was a wonderfully delightful character ~ very likeable, with a lot of charisma. Now, after he abandoned the ring in Bagend, he aged in Rivendell. But it was done well. We could still recognise him and still see the spark of his character.

Yet, when we came to Return of the King, I couldn't even recognise him. I understand the reasoning behind this - the ring was destroyed, so any long life it had been giving him was gone... hence some ageing.

But I mean, he wasn't THAT old, anyway. Yes, he was 111 but Hobbits are long-lived people. Frodo was 50.

But in this movie, he was more wrinkled than Yoda. And if you look at normal people, even at the end of their life, not many of them would look THAT old.

However, my biggest grievance is this - we haven't seen Bilbo since Frodo left him at Rivendell in the first movie. So when we see him again, there's just no way of connecting him with the previous character. It doesn't feel like Bilbo. And in fact, he feels like an intrusion. Instead of going "Oh, it's Bilbo!" as I should have been, I was thinking "Who the hell is this ancient wizened old man and what is he doing in the last scenes of my favourite movie trilogy?"

He just isn't Bilbo in that scene. He doesn't speak like him. He DEFINITELY doesn't look like him and despite my best efforts, I could not connect him with the character from the first movie.

Lastly, it's just a crime to get an actor as charismatic as Ian Holm and cover him up with so much makeup that you can no longer recognise him.

EDIT -

Lord Aquaman, about the large number of new threads, Madam Corvax is right, mate. It's too much and makes it difficult to navigate the forums. You can always discuss all these things in threads with a broad heading.

Personally, I post new threads either when a forum is really dead or if it's a really good topic that's got plenty of life in it for a nice long discussion.

Anyway, I hope you take all this in good stride. It's nothing personal - just a request.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 10 January 2005 - 07:46 AM

[Lord Aquaman]

MC, JYAMG, you're making me feel like "use the force". You may remember him from the Star Wars forum, he was obsessed with the prequels, once wrote "boo ya" in a post regarding the upcoming episode 3 lightsaber duel.

Movies are a hobbie of mine, so whenever my brother wasn't on or my sister wasn't making a phone call I blew the majority of my vacation posting all my random movie related thoughts in the movie forum. I guess I'll have to stop coming in here...

What makes you think I don't have a crappy dial-up connection? I have to take the cord out whenever someone has to make a call in my house. I wasn't aware that what I wrote in Starry Nights was offensive.

Yeah, Bilbo's aging did look weird in ROTK.