[Madam Corvax]

Concerning songs.

Emiliana Torellini who did Gollum’s Song did a great job. Enya was perhaps more catchy theme song, but at the same time it was rather a cliche, while the TTT song was truly marvellous. It was original, disturbing, different.

When I heard that Annie Lennox is doing the third one, I thought, OMG, not another eighties throwback in a career low. And I got what I expected – totally bland and unremarkable piece of music. And she got an OSCAR for it! I can’t believe. Both Enya and Emiliana did ten times better job. I think the theme song is one of the lowest poit of ROTK.

And Liv Tyler as battering ram.. It is just that she is Hollywood beauty and has much more selling force than poor Miranda, who is ONLY Australian, and not Mel Gibson or Nicole Kidman at that. Which is of course totally unfair., but that’s life. JYAMG is undred times better writer than GL, amd doesn’t own Skywalking ranch as far as I know (or maybe he does, but just pretends he doesn’t).

Ok., next points:

19. Many people have already expressed their confusion at the secene where Elrond comes to Aragorn and says that Arwen’s fate is tied to the ring. I mean, WTF? it was just an unnecessary device to add dramatic tension and some flesh into the otherwise lukewarm romance between Aragorn and Arwen. Did not convince me, though.

20. I just can’t abide pointless and unnecessary lines uttered by some characters in the film. At one point, Denethor says ‘Theoden abandoned me” meaning that Rohan would not come. I mean, you never called for help, did you, you jerk? The same for Theoden – never sent envoys to Denethor for help, and later complained.

21 One of the wors scenes that really set my teeth on edge was Gandalf smacking Denethor with his staff. How come the guards did not seize him for abusing their master so much. And Galdalf, who performed such a wonder with theoden, has to resort to BEATING a steward of a lineage far more nobler than Theoden. Shame on him!
Even if Denethor is a Despicable Pig, that’s not a reason to smack him like a village idiot.

[Vwing]

Sure. Everyone pick on poor Vwing (VWING not VIEWING). I'm just gonna fly away into space now...oh wait, vwings are airspeeders. *sigh*

You're both lucky I'm a good sport

The fact is I think the difference in the OT scores is negligible, so that I really don't care which one you like the most. I happen to prefer a greater portion of the ROTJ than any other score (I've listened to the final 45 minutes of ROTJ an unprecedented number of times). Taking into account that I love the Yoda's death music, the opening credits, some of Jabba's scenes (though I will admit that some of that music is not that great), and Emperor's Throne Room, it is my favorite score (Ewok music notwithstanding). ESB and ANH are masterful in their own way as well, and I listen to them probably as much as ROTJ. I hate to sound like Michael Jackson, but I love them all .

But I'm hijacking this thread. I actually have not seen the EE as of yet. Mainly because I found the original ROTK to be too long as it was, and am not looking forward to sitting through 30 minutes of what is apparently more unnecessary footage.

However, onto points about the actual movie. I actually loved the opening Gollum scene. It brought you (or me, anyway) totally into the movie, into the mind of Gollum, showing his motivation, his transformation, and it's full of tension and suspense. That was a great scene. It all went downhill after that.

I still liked the movie, but it is easily the worst of the 3. Quite easily. I am one of those who does Sean Astin's performance is fabulous, and find it quite ironic that the one thing in ROTK that actually DID deserve an Oscar did not even get nominated for it.

I'm with JYAMG on the Faramir/Pippin/Denethor scene though. Boyd actually does a really nice job with the vocals, and combined with the violins, the images of Faramir riding to his death (or near-death, he's only mostly dead!) and the disgusting images of Denethor eating was very effective.

I thought the entirety of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas' journey was quite pointless. Nothing about it engaged me at all. And the battles, for which the movie is greatly praised, I found to be lacking. Maybe it was because of their enormity, but at all times I felt like an observer, appreciating great images but not getting sucked into the emotion of the battle like I was in FOTR or TTT. Helm's Deep is much more effective than Pelennor Fields, in terms of a large-scale battle.

Also, anyone else notice (I know you'll laugh at me for this) how Theoden's death scene is almost exactly the same scene as Darth Vader's Death in ROTJ? Now before you get on crazy old Vwing for this, especially since the books were before Star Wars, yada yada yada, look at both of em. The angles exactly the same, Theoden lying down and Eowyn kneeling talking to him. More striking is how similar the dialogue is. Eowyn basically says, "I've got to save you." And Theoden replies, "You already have." I expected him to say, "Tell your sister, you were right." Trust me on this one.

So yeah, all-in-all, I'd give ROTK a disappointing ***/****, and based on what people are saying about the EE, it's likely it wouldn't change my mind much.

Oh and concerning songs, I too did not like Into the West, though amazingly I have not heard Enya's song. Gollum's song is good, but it is much more effective without the vocals and sophomoric dialogue (We say goodbye, we say you didn't try? I mean come on). Shore's score for all 3 is magnificent. I'm not even sure which one I like the most, as all have their highlights. I do think my favorite theme is the Gondor Theme, my favorite track is where Gandalf and the rohirrim show up at Helm's deep and attack (that's also my favorite scene from the trilogy), I believe it's caleld Forth Eorlings, though it may be the one before or after that. And FOTR (paralleling ANH) has the best performances of the main themes, not to mention that the Breaking of the Fellowship is a marvelous track.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 17 December 2004 - 05:54 PM

[Lord Aquaman]

Also, anyone else notice (I know you'll laugh at me for this) how Theoden's death scene is almost exactly the same scene as Darth Vader's Death in ROTJ?  Now before you get on crazy old Vwing for this, especially since the books were before Star Wars, yada yada yada, look at both of em.  The angles exactly the same, Theoden lying down and Eowyn kneeling talking to him.  More striking is how similar the dialogue is.  Eowyn basically says, "I've got to save you."  And Theoden replies, "You already have."  I expected him to say, "Tell your sister, you were right."  Trust me on this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hadn't noticed that Theoden's death so greatly resembled the death of Darth Vader. I'll have to give it another look sometime.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 17 December 2004 - 07:37 PM

[Just your average movie goer]

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Yes. I was born, raised, and still living in Baltimore, Maryland. How about you?

I'm an Australian, raised in Brisbane but born in an obscure little town called Geelong, near Melbourne.

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What if say, it was reversed to be a mother/daughter thing with a sorceress going to look for her [allegedly] evil mother?

That works. You steal something and change it into something a little different. That's how inspiration works. Although, I was only kidding around originally ...

... probably.

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JYAMG is undred times better writer than GL,

Thank you.

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amd doesn’t own Skywalking ranch as far as I know (or maybe he does, but just pretends he doesn’t).

Uh-oh. Someone's onto me.

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19. Many people have already expressed their confusion at the secene where Elrond comes to Aragorn and says that Arwen’s fate is tied to the ring.

I believe in the books, Elrond set a condition on Aragorn (kind of like Luthien's father setting a condition on Beren) that if he wanted to marry his mortal and keep her in Middle Earth, then he had to get rid of Sauron first. And I guess this scene was the only way the writers could think of to incorporate this into the film.... I don't know why they couldn't have just simply had Elrond say "I'm not going to leave my daughter in a world about to be consumed by darkness. If you cannot defeat Sauron, Aragorn, then Arwen cannot stay." Is that so hard?

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20. I just can’t abide pointless and unnecessary lines uttered by some characters in the film. At one point, Denethor says ‘Theoden abandoned me” meaning that Rohan would not come. I mean, you never called for help, did you, you jerk? The same for Theoden – never sent envoys to Denethor for help, and later complained.

21 One of the wors scenes that really set my teeth on edge was Gandalf smacking Denethor with his staff. How come the guards did not seize him for abusing their master so much. And Galdalf, who performed such a wonder with theoden, has to resort to BEATING a steward of a lineage far more nobler than Theoden. Shame on him!
Even if Denethor is a Despicable Pig, that’s not a reason to smack him like a village idiot.

I'm in full agreement on both of these points. And with the latter point, it really degrades Gandalf's character. But the whole movie did that, what with Gandalf fighting in the front line of battle and having to be saved from one single adolescent orc by Pippin.

And what the hell is with the Witch King breaking his staff? I remember no such thing from the book. Gandalf confronted the Witch King at the gate to the city. It was only then that Pippin came running down to tell him that Denethor was playing with matches. Gandalf and the Witch King were still going to fight though... but then the Witch King got distracted by the Rohirrim and left. If I also remember correctly, his hour was ended because Gandalf drove away the darkness a little at that point.

I hated the Gandalf/Witch King confrontation in the DVD. It was pathetic and pointless and the movie would be better off without it.

I also hated the way the wizard's staffs were broken. Rather than just snapping in two, which would work, they had to explode into splinters that looked a lot like melted plastic for some reason.

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I actually have not seen the EE as of yet. Mainly because I found the original ROTK to be too long as it was, and am not looking forward to sitting through 30 minutes of what is apparently more unnecessary footage.

Oh, you should see it, Vwing. If you don't want to buy it, at least rent it. It's well worth a look. I know, we're all complaining about bits and pieces of it. But it is still a vastly superior cut to the theatrical edition and there are some really wonderful scenes in there too. The conversation between Saruman, Grima, Theoden and Gandalf is amazing. There is a great new scene where Denethor finds out that Faramir "sent the ring into Mordor, in the hands of a witless halfling." There's a lovely moment with Merry and Eowyn and a few more surprises as well.

Also, it's not 30 minutes longer... it's 50. Maybe you could watch it over two nights.

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I am one of those who does Sean Astin's performance is fabulous, and find it quite ironic that the one thing in ROTK that actually DID deserve an Oscar did not even get nominated for it.

Oh, he was robbed, no doubt about it. Which is ironic, as you said. The film won an oscar for its editing, which was terrible. And Sean Astin's performance, which was first-rate, went unrecognised.

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I'm with JYAMG on the Faramir/Pippin/Denethor scene though.

Thanks. For a while there, I thought I was alone on that.

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I thought the entirety of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas' journey was quite pointless. Nothing about it engaged me at all. And the battles, for which the movie is greatly praised, I found to be lacking. Maybe it was because of their enormity, but at all times I felt like an observer, appreciating great images but not getting sucked into the emotion of the battle like I was in FOTR or TTT. Helm's Deep is much more effective than Pelennor Fields, in terms of a large-scale battle.

I couldn't agree more. The battle was just long shots and a video clip of random close-ups of people I didn't know.

Oh, here's some orcs. Oh, look. There's some Rohirrim. Hey, there's some Oliphants being ridden by rejects from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

I think now I understand why Tolkien devoted so little time to the battle when he dedicated entire chapters to Samwise cooking dinner. The battle of the Pelennor Fields, while necessary to the story, wasn't interesting enough to warrant spending a long time discussing it.

Also, anyone else notice (I know you'll laugh at me for this) how Theoden's death scene is almost exactly the same scene as Darth Vader's Death in ROTJ? Now before you get on crazy old Vwing for this, especially since the books were before Star Wars, yada yada yada, look at both of em. The angles exactly the same, Theoden lying down and Eowyn kneeling talking to him. More striking is how similar the dialogue is. Eowyn basically says, "I've got to save you." And Theoden replies, "You already have." I expected him to say, "Tell your sister, you were right."

OH YES!!! I thought that the very first time I saw it and I was thinking the exact same thing. It's so true, isn't it?

Regarding the music, you're right, Vwing. The score for the whole trilogy is superb.

Lastly,

Concerning songs.

Emiliana Torellini who did Gollum’s Song did a great job. Enya was perhaps more catchy theme song, but at the same time it was rather a cliche, while the TTT song was truly marvellous. It was original, disturbing, different.

When I heard that Annie Lennox is doing the third one, I thought, OMG, not another eighties throwback in a career low. And I got what I expected – totally bland and unremarkable piece of music. And she got an OSCAR for it! I can’t believe. Both Enya and Emiliana did ten times better job. I think the theme song is one of the lowest poit of ROTK.

I agree that the song was rather cheesy and sounded like an 80s track. It also just didn't fit in with the score at all. It felt so out of place.

Although, I think we shouldn't be too harsh on it because Fran Walsh poured her heart and soul into that song, trying to give some words to her feelings about a young filmmaker called Cameron Duncan, who was taken by cancer at the age of 16. He was this remarkable, very, very talented young man who they met during the filming of Return of the King. They only knew him in the last two months of his life but they were in constant contact with him, while he was trying to make one last film before his time was up.

To all owners of the DVD, watch the feature about Cameron Duncan. The feature also showcases his films. It really is a truly moving story. Although obviously, it's heavy going as well. But it really should be watched and appreciated.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 17 December 2004 - 10:56 PM

[Just your average movie goer]

There's something wrong with the quote function. I even edited my post to redo the quotes and it still looks like THAT? What is going on?

[Madam Corvax]

I hated the Gandalf/Witch King confrontation in the DVD.  It was pathetic and pointless and the movie would be better off without it.

Me too. It was pointless.

Actually, I wanted to write more stuff, but I forgotten my notes. So, off the top of my head.

You probably would not agree, but I was really diappointed when PJ did not want the mistery who "Dernhelm" is. I thought that with today's technology it would have been easy to disguise Eowyn as Dernhelm and have a bit of mystery. But no, Merry has to say "My Lady" and everyone knows what is going on. BTW, it is uttery unbelievable, the way she just sweeps him on the horse in full gallop. And the exchange between her and Merry is nice, true, but again, there are scenes which are more necessary to the development of the plot than this pointless exchange

For example, Theoden and Eomer are so underdeveloped, and we don't even know if they found him ont he battle field. And again, I challenge the decision from TTT to include the funeral of Theodred, who doesn't speak a single line in the film to Theoden, a major character.

[Just your average movie goer]

That's a good point. Although, I really liked that scene with Merry and Eowyn despite this. It was a lovely scene and Merry's speech was simple yet touching.

Alas, poor Eomer. He got even less screentime than Eowyn and Faramir. I would have liked to have seen more of him and some kind of acknowledgement for poor Theoden. The king laid down his life for Gondor and nobody even bothers to mention him again. If I were him, I would be upset by this.

Also, I think I know why I'm still bothered by the lack of screentime dedicated to Faramir and Eowyn's romance. It's because it's not just the pairing of two nice young people. When they get married, there is a royal union between the kindgoms of Gondor and Rohan. And I would have thought that'd be worth a mention.

In addition to this, it would have been nice to see some scenes with the people of Minas Tirith looking at Aragorn for the first time, straight after he came in from the battlefield. This is their king returning and again, nothing is made of it except for a token scene at the end.

Regarding that scene, has anybody noticed how sickly Elrond looks when Arwen and Aragorn are reunited? I think I know why that is. Elrond is watching the two young lovers, thinking "My God... that is my surrogate son kissing my biological daughter."


Lastly, I wondered if this bothered anyone else - during the fight with Shelob, Sam drops the light of Erinil (spelling?) and Shelob kicks it away! Maybe I'm wrong on this but I thought that if this thing is so powerful that it hurts her just to see it, I don't think she should be able to touch it. Comments anyone?

[Madam Corvax]

Also, I think I know why I'm still bothered by the lack of screentime dedicated to Faramir and Eowyn's romance.  It's because it's not just the pairing of two nice young people.  When they get married, there is a royal union between the kindgoms of Gondor and Rohan.  And I would have thought that'd be worth a mention.

You are bothered, and I am still mighty annoyed about it.
It is the single most poignant and romantic moment in the whole books (you know I simply love romance) And after being madly in love with Aragorn, she exchanges three sentences with another guy ad that's it. THAT'S it!

In addition to this, it would have been nice to see some scenes with the people of Minas Tirith looking at Aragorn for the first time, straight after he came in from the battlefield.  This is their king returning and again, nothing is made of it except for a token scene at the end.

Well, I just could not see the Aragorn becoming a king at all. How come people in Gondor accepted it! (Especially after the cheesy song and speech he gives) He is soo uninteresting, I could not see why he othered with the throne of GOndor at all.

Lastly, I wondered if this bothered anyone else - during the fight with Shelob, Sam drops the light of Erinil (spelling?) and Shelob kicks it away!  Maybe I'm wrong on this but I thought that if this thing is so powerful that it hurts her just to see it, I don't think she should be able to touch it.  Comments anyone?

I really liked Shelob. She was very well done, not like a cartoon spider, but really menacing creature. But seeing her I just can't believe Sam manages to fight her. Despite all his bravery, even with Elvish blade he is no match for the deadly creature. So the Elvish Light of Earendil would have been the only thing that might have helped Sam, but we just don't see it, as you say, she just kicks the phial away.
I would say Sam taking on Shelob is even less plausible than Rohirrim charging Mumakils and defeating them, but more of that later. Bashing the fighting scene will be an Extra Special treat for me... I just have to get it out of me, how much I despise the battle scenes in ROTK.

[Lord Aquaman]

You are bothered, and I am still mighty annoyed about it.
It is the single most poignant and romantic moment in the whole books (you know I simply love romance) And after being madly in love with Aragorn, she exchanges three sentences with another guy ad that's it. THAT'S it!
Well, I just could not see the Aragorn becoming a king at all. How come people in Gondor accepted it! (Especially after the cheesy song and speech he gives) He is soo uninteresting, I could not see why he othered with the throne of GOndor at all.
I really liked Shelob. She was very well done, not like a cartoon spider, but really menacing creature. But seeing her I just can't believe Sam manages to fight her. Despite all his bravery, even with Elvish blade he is no match for the deadly creature. So the Elvish Light of Earendil would have been the only thing that might have helped Sam, but we just don't see it, as you say, she just kicks the phial away.
I would say Sam taking on Shelob is even less plausible than Rohirrim charging Mumakils and defeating them, but more of that later. Bashing the fighting scene will be an Extra Special treat for me... I just have to get it out of me, how much I despise the battle scenes in ROTK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know, the scene where the Rohirrim charge at the giant killer elephants kind of reminded me of the battle on the ice planet Hoth from "The Empire Strikes Back", when the Rebel ships go one-on-one with the Imperial Walker tank thing-a-ma-jigs (I think the big ones are called AT-AT and the smaller ones are generally referred to as "Chicken Walkers").

With the possible exception of the annoying Gollum, just about EVERY character who didn't show up until AFTER "Fellowship of the Ring" seemed to get screwed in some way or another, presumably because PJ and the writers wanted to stay focused on the one main plot - destroy that damned ring.

Did you dislike Viggo Mortensen in the Aragorn role? I hadn't thought about that other stuff with the people of Gondor getting a first time glimpse of him, but now that you mention it...

[azerty]

You know, the whole Lord of the Rings takes a huge amount of effort from the viewer to understand what is going on. (The reader too, actually). I just saw Fellowship a couple of nights ago with some older family people who had rented it for some reason, and their questions were non stop! The worst part was, I found it difficult to give any kind of quick and complete answers. There are no easy answers for people who just want to know, in general, what is going on. "Who are those black riders","why can't they cross water","why are they crossing water this time, then","is that wizard a good guy or a bad guy","but he isn't the main bad guy is he?"... on and on. It gave me a new perspective on it all, I tell you.

I started thinking that everything is double in Lord of the Rings. Sauron/Saruman, Helms Deep/Minas Tirith, Aragorn/Arwen - Aragorn/Eowyn. It is a bit much, really. Even the two towers, with Minas Morgul as well.

The only things I really never liked about the Lord of the Rings (books too), was a lot of things weren't subtle enough. Saruman seems rotten from the moment he shows up, and that isn't really the case. Same with Boromir. He isn't seduced by the ring; you can sense he's a problem from the moment he arrives. It's only later that we understand him, but he should have been more noble and less rotten early on.

The special editions are better than the theatrical versions, I think, but The Two Towers could have been completely skipped over with out much loss to a more straightforward story. Sacrilige, maybe, but movies aren't books, they are visual and direct, rather than expository. Return of the King is the movie that seems the most like a MOVIE, and the least like a reading of the books with special effects. Fellowship is a excellent build up for plot and character and King is a climax and finish. Two Towers is a bit of a droner, really, and in the great scheme of things, unneccessary.

[Just your average movie goer]

I agree with a lot of that, especially about The Two Towers. Why did it need so much time to say so little? It would have been better to push some of the scenes from Return of the King into The Two Towers instead. It would have made the movie stronger and it would have giver Return of the King some room to breathe, which it never had even in the Extended Edition.

[azerty]

Glad to see JYAMG agrees with about something finally!

Peter Jackson seems a bit too stuck in the 1970's for me. Aragorn is too much an earthy 70's rock star, and the hobbits are a bit too hippy for me. I actually would have preferred Hidalgo's Viggo as Aragorn. Strider anyway. Short hair, and beaten and tired looking. He just seemed more like a ranger that way. And I realize that the simple explanation of merry hobbits can be shown most easily with them as commune living hippy simpletons, but that was never how I imagined them. (The worst is that women clapping as the birthday banner goes up). The hobbits come accross in the books as being quieter and more conservatively civilised, and not a bunch of midgets at a renaisance fair. And I think it all stems from Peter Jackson being too much a 70's contemporary. The whole scene with smeagol in the beginning is way, way too new agey and hippy. In a movie of fairly straightforward realism, why would anybody look, move and talk like that. It was very jarring. Where did that tone come from, because that is not the tone of the books. My only real complaint.

Actually, I found the Return of the King so visually amazing that I took my dad to see it, despite his protests and total lack of interest, and arguments that he wouldn't know what was going on (having not seen the first 2 films). Those scenes in and around Minas Tirith are absolutely jaw droppingly stunning. They were utterly perfect and believable. With all the supposedly "amazing things" you can see in the movies these days, that was the first truly jaw dropping thing I've seen since 1977. The characters moved, the background was 3d, the camera moved over and through and across it all, you could not get your mind around the scale of it, and the solidness of it. For my simple tastes, that alone is enough to reccomend it.

[Lord Aquaman]

Seeing as how LOTR is allegedly set in the distant past, I don't think hair-cutting technology was advanced enough for regular hair cuts to be convenient/practical.

[Just your average movie goer]

What the HELL was this thread doing at the bottom of the main page?

This is the most interesting topic in the Movie Thread by several hundred leagues and you guys were going to let it drift onto the second page?

Do not let it happen again.

[Lord Aquaman]

What the HELL was this thread doing at the bottom of the main page?

This is the most interesting topic in the Movie Thread by several hundred leagues and you guys were going to let it drift onto the second page?

Do not let it happen again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The topic of the 70s haircuts or the overall discussion of the extended version of "Return of the King"?

Well, I got the extended ROTK for Christmas and I agree it doesn't come close to the high quality we got from the extended version of "Fellowship of the Ring". The Legolas/Gimli drinking game was ridiculous, but it DID succeed in doing something that all "Gimli falls off his horse/falls down hill/says-does something stupid at the battle of Helms Deep" failed to do: it made me chuckle. I liked the extra scenes with Eomer, Eowyn and Faramir, but I still feel these three characters were greatly screwed in the end. Saruman's death scene wasn't quite as spectacular as I had long envisioned, but I still think it should have been in the theatrical version of the film as opposed to just alluding to this idea that he lives locked in his tower for the rest of his life with Treebeard & co knocking on his door (he was a big representative of the Forces of Evil during the first two films, after all). Watching this one extra scene between Eowyn and Merry while the Rohan soldiers are resting en route to Gondor made me wonder - why the hell is she standing out there IN PLAIN VIEW OF HER UNCLE, BROTHER AND THE REST OF THE ARMY WITHOUT HER HELMET ON? Does she really think that tucking her long blonde hair into the neck of her shirt is gonna hide her distinctly feminine face from the all the rough and rugged men? I mean, that's not really much of a disguise when compared to the helmet which actually did hide most of her face. The extra scenes of the ghost army finally bring to light how the A, L and G got on the pirate boats, though I always just assumed they headed off the invading pirates of the caribbean.

While watching the extended edition with my family, a criticism came up against Eowyn for disobeying Theoden's orders to stay with the people and keep them and dressing up as a man to go and fight at Gondor. After all, if the king's niece isn't there to lead, then who's gonna lead? Well, I think the same criticism could be made of Aragorn - he was supposed to be king of Gondor and he spent most of his life shirking that responsibility to go ride around in the wild and boink the elf chick Arwen.

Apparently, wizard staffs are built to be blown up in multiple pieces - not just Gandalf's but Saruman's.

Did anyone else think that Eomer's armor made him look like a samurai?

If you were going out on an adventure and you had to pick from one of the four Hobbits - Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Sam - as companions, and you could only pick one, which one would you pick?