[Jordan]

No way, I think Christianity is on the way out. Maybe not in the southern states of the US. But everywhere else it is. The whole world hates Bush. %51 of all Americans are his only supporters. And if Bush wanted to reform the US and turn it into a christian country, well, It will never happen, ever. Christians are the least of your worries. I guess you have fun taking shots at them, just like the Polish and other targets. (lol I'm Polish too) But don't make them out to be threats. I'm willing to wager that your life has never been personally affected, in a negative way, by a Christian. You can cry about all the past crimes and whatnot, but nowadays, you have nothing to cry about. Bush proclaims he's a Christian, and he attacked Iraq. I guess Christans are back to crusading! Hardly.

[WalrusOfPlastic]

I would almost agree with you Jordan. I think Christianity was slowly dissolving as America's religion. I totally had the impression that it was on it's way out. I don't think that's the case anymore however. I think through subjects like 9/11 and Bush's re-election, Christianity is reestablishing a hold on American politics and culture. I guess it's all just a a proverbial pendulum. One minute it's taboo to be a conservative Christian, the next minute it's taboo to be a liberal.

Until it's possible for someone to run for president without claiming they're a Christian, this country will be run by Christians. I don't see that happening in a very very long time. We will have female candidates and non-white candidates long before we have non-Christian ones.

It's not quite right to say that none of us have been negatively effected by Christianity. A very good friend of mine was raised Atheist and lived in a small town where it was generally accepted that everyone was Christian. She endured plenty a hardship because of this. She's never been one to hide her beliefs.

But also, everybody gets oppressed. We're all little whiny victims of everybody else. The most universal escape is self-victimization.

[Just your average movie goer]

Jordan, I can think of plenty of times I've been negatively affected by a Christian. Would you like me to write you a list and send it over?

Off the top of my head -

Being abused by street preachers, being tormented by my insane peers at school, the doorknocking mormons who caused my mother to break her leg when she was already in the late stage of the terrible cancer that eventually took her life (and then proceeded with their spiel while she was on the ground, screaming - I would have killed them but I attended to my mother while my brother told them to go away). I don't see any Muslims doing that door-to-door hassling stuff, nor do you get Muslim street preachers.


And you joke about Christians crusading - well, it's pretty much what they ARE doing. Bush has created a vile atmosphere of the Christian world against the Muslim world. It's kind of like the capitalists against the communists, except that ended in the 1990s and I thought everyone agreed that the world doesn't need another Cold War.

But I guess I was wrong. Bush feels like he missed out so he wants to have another one, just for old time's sake. And who the hell is backing him in this insane ideal? Who helped him continue the war in Iraq, who backed him up in aiding Israel in its crimes against the Palestinians? Who are those 51% of Americans you refer to? Fundamentalist Christians.

So don't give me that crap that Christians aren't negatively affecting anyone.

[Jordan]

"""Bush has created a vile atmosphere of the Christian world against the Muslim world"""

I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a fight between democratic west vrs the middle east. A means for oil and a powerful position for military to be out posted (I don't think troops will ever leave Iraq, we will set up a base there)


Those don't sound like big problems to me, JYAMG. I've been mugged twice by street thugs, got in a lot of fights based on racial tension, had people call my house and try get me to do annoying surveys, have had my car broken into, fallen off a 15 foot bridge etc...

At best, those are every day annoyances. Christianty does not threaten your life, especially since you don't live in the US or Poland. Even if you did live in those countries, I'm sure you'd lead a pretty happy life. Chef, Laura and the others here are all Americans and they never bitch about Christians stripping them of rights and all that jazz.

Iraq invasion is already past, Kerry would have sent in more troops if he got in power. NO president, atheist or religous, would just walk out of Iraq now. Furthermore, nobody voted for Bush the first time banking on the fact he'd create some sort of war in the name of Christ. And I don't believe he waged the war for that reason. It's a means for America to control oil and strategic poistion against China.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 17 December 2004 - 04:09 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Those don't sound like big problems to me, JYAMG. I've been mugged twice by street thugs, got in a lot of fights based on racial tension, had people call my house and try get me to do annoying surveys, have had my car broken into, fallen off a 15 foot bridge etc...

Good for you, shit-for-brains. I've had worse experiences too. Let's see - I've been hit by a car, severely assaulted in primary school, fallen from great heights too, been half-drowned in fifteen foot surf when I was 10 and that's just a few off the top of my head.

But who cares? I wasn't talking about bad things that happen in life. I was talking about bad things that Christians do. And if you think watching your mother screaming in agony while some moron door-to-door preacher tries to carry on with his show is nothing, you haven't got a clue. My mother had broken her leg, and these Mormons were carrying on with their spiel! Or did you miss that part of my grievance list? Probably... you were just going "Oi! Somebody's bashing Christians! Can't have that. This looks like a job for SUPER CHRISTIAN! SUPER CHRISTIAN away!!!"

And -

"""Bush has created a vile atmosphere of the Christian world against the Muslim world"""

I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a fight between democratic west vrs the middle east.

The DEMOCRATIC west vs the Middle East? You scare me sometimes, Jordan. Please promise me you're not going to have children.

[Jordan]

And those bad things that christians do are less worse than most things. They are not a serious threat, that was my point.

What's with you and the tuff guy act?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 17 December 2004 - 04:25 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Jordan, I know Movie Goer's been getting a bit heated but this is a sensitive topic, and I don't mean to attack you as well so keep in mind that this is done under the premises of debate, and not bias against your religious beliefs.

""And those bad things that christians do are less worse than most things.""

First of all, "Less worse" is just wrong. Second of all, I think Movie Goer was comparing in the grounds of religious annoyance level. No, I suppose having to watch your mother be accosted by a street preacher while she writhed in agony might be better than having to watch your family be eaten by a dinosaur, but that's changing the topic. We're talking religion-wise here. Keep things in context here. Movie Goer's argument is that had this been, say, a Muslim at the door or a Hindu or a Budhist, that this person would have decided to help the injured woman rather than spill religious nonsense.

""They are not a serious threat, that was my point.""

The US is the world's most abundantly Christian nation. We bring it into our government more than any other country. The government is almost entirely Christian. And the Jews who get into the government have so few differences with the Christians they may as well be Christians. I'm not saying it's the fault of Christianity. I'm saying that in the US there is something significantly deficient in the Christian church. I mean, they have prayer for the troops. Not for safety, for victory. Victory over the muslim devils. Christianity isnt about that! And thats anothing thing I want to address.

Your idea of Christianity is not mainstream. We're not attacking the religion as a whole and we're certainly not saying that because your god is called Jehova, that you are a right wing nut job. Christianity is practiced very well by people in Canada, Europe and various other places. Christianity has done good things in the past and I'm sure that there are benefits of Christianity but you have to admit that the organized church in the US is fucked out of its mind.

[Jordan]

I've said from the start that I'm against most forms of organized chruch. Christians should not hold high positions of power. If anything we should be the ones getting persecuted and killed. Like Christ.

I think the majority of churches out there start off good. But these people are human, and organizations of any sort usually become corrput as they increase in capacity.

I understand you a bit better JM, I find JYAMG really violent when it comes to any form of debate. Wether it be about favortite colors or political.

[SimeSublime]

Dark Green is the best colour of all.

[Chyld]

You all lie! Black is the way forward!
Or a lovely deep purple, if that fails.

[J m HofMarN]

"Red! The color of passion, color of fire!

Neck!... Well I cant think of anything for neck but without it you've still got red and that's something to be proud of"

-Jim West

[civilian_number_two]

JM, I can't believe you have actually made claims about Muslim nations never crusading against other nations, and having degrees of protective rights for women, while Christian nations have not.

I agree 100% that SELECT current or recent Muslim nations are superior to certain Christian nations in some places of the modern or ancient world, but I don't get what your claim may have to do with flogging and burkas and female circumcision.

Religion is all fucked. Nations have used it as an excuse to do war. When all the nations in Europe followed a common religion, they created religious schisms just so they'd have an excuse to continue to do war against one another. Islamic nations distrust one another, and everyone hates the Jews.

I want to hear you repeat the "Musims = all good; Christians = all bad" argument with some specific referneces to make it sound less insane. If necessary, I will repeat the above argument in a similar vein. It will go like this:


PHHHHHHHHHHHHHHT!

Reference: http://www.veganporn.com/

[J m HofMarN]

Civilian- What I was saying is that current Islam, which is a religion approximately 1300 years old, looks a lot like Christianity when it was 1300 and in some ways is better than Christianity was at that time.

[civilian_number_two]

Fair enough, but when Christianity was 1300 years old the Western World was still terrorized by guys in long ships carrying sharpened metal rods. In 1300 it took more than a month to travel from Iceland to Rome.

Now that Islam is 1300 years old, people are beaming messages to one another from around the world on invisible paper, and we travel by means of giant iron birds into space at rates 25 times faster than the speed of sound.

I dare say we should be grading religions by the technology available to them as much as by their respective ages. After all, it's really the societies we're critiquing, and not their faiths, right?

Add to which, I bet th Scientologists will be doing a lot better at 200 than Islam is doing at 1300. And they're assholes (the Scientologists, I mean). So it's not all relative.

[barend]

You all lie! Black is the way forward!
Or a lovely deep purple, if that fails.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll kill you, you bastard!!! Green is the best!!! I'll kill you all!!!

even though my wardrobe is pretty much all black...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

yeah... movie goer is getting pretty heated about the whole christianity thing latley... between my, 'I'd make lazy God', and Jordans... er, whatever he said...

I wouldn't want to be a christian in Korea at the moment...
you'd be bound to get a face full of catapulted homohabillus skulls...

i think everybody should take a deep breath and repeat after me...
"It doesn't matter... good and evil don't require beliefs... they just are...

failing that, the 'goose fahba' thing...