[Paladin]

All righty then, I was doing some thinking about what Vader said to Obi-Wan when they met on board the Death Star and when Yoda said something about 'chooing the quick and easy path, as Vader did' to Luke when he climbed on board his X-wing to fly off to the Cloud City.

When Vader meets Obi-Wan, he says, "When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the master!" and then Obi-Wan responds by saying "Only a master of evil, Darth.' and the battle ensues.

This, along with claiming that Anakin decided to take the 'quick and easy path', more or less stated that Anakin decided to indulge in the darkside of the Force to hasten his training because he was impatient to become a Jedi. In AOTC, his impatience is shown all right, but no where does he break off from Obi-Wan to complete his training by any unothradox means. Further more the offical script released a while back clearly said that Anakin was a fully trained Jedi in ROTS... how could that possibly fit in with the OT? If Anakin had become a fully trained and fledged Jedi Knight, and the apparent stated reason for turning into the darkside (or at least, one of the reasons) was his impatience, then how could that be? Further more, it would seem that he didn't leave and fight against Obi-Wan because he considered him a hindrence to his training... but more of him following Palpatines orders and being a complete asshole.

Chefelf was right when he said that the Obi-Wan's only apparent fault is being stuck with a complete pyhcopath for an apprentice rather than being a bad teacher.

Another thing is the 'three trials' thing that they mentioned in the PM and AOTC. In the PM, as we all know, Obi-Wan states that he's 'ready for the trials' but is silenced when Yoda says 'we'll keep our own consul on who is ready' or something to that effect... but in the end of the movie, they give Obi-Wan his rank of Jedi Knight with no 'trials' taking place at all... it seems to me that either they're something so small and insignificant that they can be overwith in only a few hours, or they bypassed the trials completely for some unexplained reason.

And while I'm at this, I might as well bring up the issue of 'agree with you the consul does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be.' that Yoda says... excuse me? But if he strongly disagreed with having Anakin trained only a few seconds earlier, then what the heck made him change his mind so quickly? What's more is, he claims that the whole consul now agrees with him. We don't even SEE all the consul in the movie, and not even hear all of them talk, and they're all apparently equal, too. What gives Yoda the right to make their decisions for them? What if they still disagree regardless of Yoda's sudden change of heart?

Getting back on topic, the trials. In AOTC, during Anakin's first tirade against Obi-Wan, he complains that Obi-Wan won't let him move on and then states that he's ready for these 'Trials' once again... but they STILL don't explain what they are?

How is this an inconsistancy with the OT? I'll tell you why. If these 'trials' are apparently so important in training a Jedi, why the hell aren't they mentioned in the OT? There is not a single mention of any kind of test at all, they just have the 'training' thing that Luke goes through and that seems to be it. Further more, when Yoda dies (and makes an incoherant statement that Luke doesn't need any more training... even though he made it clear that he isn't finished in the last movie), he just says that he has to defeat Darth Vader and he'll becomea Jedi. Is this a test or something? You have to defeat a big opponent to make your rank? Why does he have to defeat anyone to complete his training? Or is this really a part of the unmentioned 'trials'?

Finally, the third inconsistancy... you can't turn a fully trained Jedi Knight to the darkside. No sirree, you can only do that to 'young apprentices' who 'will be tempted by the Darkside of the Force' (oooooh). Again I will say this. In the script of the ROTS that we got a while back, they say that Anakin was a FULLY trained Jedi Knight and he was STILL turned to evil by Palpatine. How can this be? Even in the ROTJ when Luke defeats Vader and proudly states that he's a Jedi and cannot be turned. Have the Jedi been somewhat different in the old days? Were they really that weak? If that's the case, then maybe they deserved to die out and maybe they should have stayed that way.

What do you guys think?

[littlejerryseinfeld]

this is just another example of lucas coming up with a new idea and then dropping it because he's concocted a story that is so unnecessarily complex that he has no time to follow thru... he did the same thing with midichlorians - mentioned, then never spoken of again. (although this might of been because of the fan outrage of the idea - which lucas will never admit to)

i disagree that fully fledged jedi cannot be turned. they can. look at dooku.

luke states 'no. i'm a jedi; like my father before me', not because he's a jedi and cannot be possibly turned, - it's just a statement of affirmation. remember, he did attack vader, and was about to kill him. and if it is possible to turn a sith back to 'the good side' ala vader, then it would stand to reason that it could work the other way around.

if it was not at all possible, why would vader and the emporer even try?

'i will not be turned. and you will be forced to kill me.'

[Mad Rabbit]

Paladin- You raise some very valid points, however some of the things you bring up might be able to be explained. First off...

Another thing is the 'three trials' thing that they mentioned in the PM and AOTC. In the PM, as we all know, Obi-Wan states that he's 'ready for the trials' but is silenced when Yoda says 'we'll keep our own consul on who is ready' or something to that effect... but in the end of the movie, they give Obi-Wan his rank of Jedi Knight with no 'trials' taking place at all... it seems to me that either they're something so small and insignificant that they can be overwith in only a few hours, or they bypassed the trials completely for some unexplained reason.

I'm going to assume that Obi-Wan was made a Jedi Knight simply for taking out Darth Maul, something a Jedi Master like Qui-Gonn failed to do. That had to count for something. Plus Obi-Wan's SAT scores were amazing.

Next we have...

And while I'm at this, I might as well bring up the issue of 'agree with you the consul does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be.' that Yoda says... excuse me? But if he strongly disagreed with having Anakin trained only a few seconds earlier, then what the heck made him change his mind so quickly? What's more is, he claims that the whole consul now agrees with him. We don't even SEE all the consul in the movie, and not even hear all of them talk, and they're all apparently equal, too. What gives Yoda the right to make their decisions for them? What if they still disagree regardless of Yoda's sudden change of heart?

Yoda is senile plain and simple. He simply forgot that he said no in the first place. When 900 years old you reach, think so clearly you will not. Which is the reason Qui-Gonn decided to train Anakin anyway. That crazy, old, green bastard didn't know what the hell he was talking about. As far as the council went, they didn't say much because Yoda is the kind of guy who doesn't shut up during meetings, and never lets people get in a word edgewise. If you watch TPM more closely, the jedi council isn't nodding in agreement with what Yoda is saying, it's more like they're nodding to be courteous all the while thinking "I sure wish this guy would shut up." They probably hold a second meeting after Yoda leaves and decide the really important matters all the while making fun of Yoda behind his back.

And finally...

Finally, the third inconsistancy... you can't turn a fully trained Jedi Knight to the darkside

Well, that may be the case, but who said these guys are actually full fledged Jedi Knights? A senile muppet like Yoda? You brought it up yourself these guys didn't go through any trials, they were pretty much just given the title. So I could see them going over to the darkside. Besides the darkside has a better benefits package than the council's. 401k, paid vacations... it's really great.

You know now that I think about it the Sith actually train their Jedi better. Notice how it's always just a master and a student? While at the Jedi school you have overcrowded classrooms? No wonder the darkside is easier, they actually teach you shit.

[Paladin]

I'm going to assume that Obi-Wan was made a Jedi Knight simply for taking out Darth Maul, something a Jedi Master like Qui-Gonn failed to do. That had to count for something. Plus Obi-Wan's SAT scores were amazing.

Obi-Wan taking out Darth Maul was sheer luck... and stupidity on part of Darth Maul. When he knocked out Qui-Gon, he should at least have done something to destroy his weapon... or at least take it as a trophy or something on his person to make sure that no one can use it against him. Remember: he was dealing with a Jedi, and they're NOT to be underestimated in any way!

Further more, just because he defeated some Sith lord, does that mean they can forget about the trials completely? It kinda reminds of a King Arthur movie I watched many years back. When a peasant Squire was knighted on the spot just so he can joust a fully trained Knight of noble birth, all without so much as riding a horse or having a single training session in jousting or sword-fighting. (Of course, Lancelot quickly shows up and does the actual joust)

i disagree that fully fledged jedi cannot be turned. they can. look at dooku.

I never said that fully trained Jedi can't be turned to the Darkside. Lucas implied that in the OT and went against it in the PT. That's why I brought it up as an inconsistancy!!

[Despondent]

yeah, Arthur was kind of put on the spot and pulled in different directions while searching for a solution (being a man of his word with all eyes on him btw.) Lucas just aims the spotlight in another direction. (Look, everyone! Death Star 2. "pay no attention to the man behind the screen,") and as for swift promotion in rank; "welcome aboard, General Calrissian. General Solo. Senator Binks."

[Just your average movie goer]

I just read through some of your posts, Mad Rabbit. They're great! You are one cool guy and I'd like to also take this opportunity to welcome you to the forum.

I don't come here much these days but with some of our new members, it looks like the forum's coming alive again. Hope to see some more of your posts in the future. Good stuff, mate.

[Paladin]

Don't forget General Binks, too. He was a complete imbicle and had very little part in getting the Naboo and Gungans together, yet the wise Boss Nass (weird name, BTW) gave all the credit to him and made him a general. Jar Jar couldn't even control his own urgings to eat and stop his curiousity from getting him into trouble, how's he supposed to command an army of thousands during wartime?

[jariten]

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Three more inconsistancies

I love topics like this! They're my favourite.

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This, along with claiming that Anakin decided to take the 'quick and easy path', more or less stated that Anakin decided to indulge in the darkside of the Force to hasten his training because he was impatient to become a Jedi. In AOTC, his impatience is shown all right, but no where does he break off from Obi-Wan to complete his training by any unothradox means

In AotC we have Anakin who, at the same time as being stifled by his fairly authoratative master, is seeking out extra help from an outside source ie Palpatine. Listen to their dialogue in that short but oh so important scene

"Your patience has paid off.

You're guidance more than my patience.

You dont need guidance Anakin. I foresee you becoming the greatest of all Jedi, even more powerful then master Yoda"

This is an exercise in massaging Anakins ego but Palpatine knows how to manipulate him because its this kind of thing that Anakin is missing from Obi Wan. Obi praises Anakin ONCE in the whole film, "good call my young padawan", and he looks happy enough to fall out of that ship. Even after Anakin saves Obis life, he first comment is a critisicm- "what took you so long?". Into this gap steps Palpatine. now you can complain about the acting and and direction and anakins hair but honestly, the pieces are all in place for this.

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Further more the offical script released a while back clearly said that Anakin was a fully trained Jedi in ROTS

eh? Sorry, I refuse to pay attention to "official" scripts. I'll wait for May.

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but in the end of the movie, they give Obi-Wan his rank of Jedi Knight with no 'trials' taking place at all

I'm guessing they took place but we obviously dont need to see them. No offence, but this is pointless nitpicking.

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If Anakin had become a fully trained and fledged Jedi Knight, and the apparent stated reason for turning into the darkside (or at least, one of the reasons) was his impatience, then how could that be?

You just answered your own question. "one of the reasons was impatience". Correct, one of the reasons was impatience. Impatience with his master that allowed Palpatine to elbow in (as explained above).

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Further more, it would seem that he didn't leave and fight against Obi-Wan because he considered him a hindrence to his training... but more of him following Palpatines orders and being a complete asshole.

where are you getting all this information from? The official script?

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Chefelf was right when he said that the Obi-Wan's only apparent fault is being stuck with a complete pyhcopath for an apprentice rather than being a bad teacher.

absolutly 100% disagree with that.

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And while I'm at this, I might as well bring up the issue of 'agree with you the consul does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be.' that Yoda says... excuse me? But if he strongly disagreed with having Anakin trained only a few seconds earlier, then what the heck made him change his mind so quickly?

he quite clearly closes him eyes in meditation before giving the response. Hence, he confirmed it with the council using his jedi brain. you dont honestly find that concept, that the Jedi council have the powers to do that, implausible do you?

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Getting back on topic, the trials. In AOTC, during Anakin's first tirade against Obi-Wan, he complains that Obi-Wan won't let him move on and then states that he's ready for these 'Trials' once again... but they STILL don't explain what they are?

they arnt explained because its not necessary to the story to explain them.

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How is this an inconsistancy with the OT? I'll tell you why. If these 'trials' are apparently so important in training a Jedi, why the hell aren't they mentioned in the OT?

come on now. the entire society which created the trials, the whole system which the trials would have depended upon to work, is dead and gone. what on earth could Yoda have done with "the trials" in a swamp on Dagobah? i doubt he had one of those things Mace had to check of Luke could predict the next image. Yoda obviosuly used what was at hand to take to basics of the trials and compress them into something that he could realistically accomplish. but we dont see Lukes full training, just like we dont see the trials in the originals. so how could you possibly make any kind of supposition or comparison?

Finally, the third inconsistancy... you can't turn a fully trained Jedi Knight to the darkside. No sirree, you can only do that to 'young apprentices' who 'will be tempted by the Darkside of the Force' (oooooh)

well, AotC contradicts you there. Dooku was a fully trained jedi who turned darkside. honestly, I wonder if a lot of these critisicms could be resolved by people just taking the time to watch them without the intention of hating them and ripping them to pieces.

Even in the ROTJ when Luke defeats Vader and proudly states that he's a Jedi and cannot be turned

because that was his will to do so!!! its isnt like do this then that and complete this crossword and you'll definatly become a sith. you have to succumb to it, and let yourself be turned. Anakin goes to the darkside because he cant let go of the things he loves and he wants to keep tragedy out of his life, he wants to make things better. No, ive not seen RotS, but thats clearly where things were moving in AotC, and that'll be the progression in RotS.

EDIT- the quote thing isnt working! am i doing something wrong? (likely) anyway, you get the general idea. and Mad Rabbit, welcome! love your avatar too

This post has been edited by jariten: 06 December 2004 - 05:11 AM

[Paladin]

Again I will be forced to mention it, I did not create the claim that a fully trained Jedi Knight cannot be turned. Lucas did. And he contradicted himself in the PT.

[Helena]

I don't understand what you're saying about this 'claim' that a fully-fledged Jedi can't be turned to the Dark Side. Where is this stated or even implied in the OT? It may well be more difficult to turn an experienced Jedi Knight than a callow apprentice, but that doesn't mean it can't be done - there's no reason why they couldn't still be impatient, headstrong etc.

As for the thing about the trials, I would have thought it obvious that Luke's training is going to be rather less 'formal' and comprehensive when it's taking place in hiding on Dagobah, rather than in a large academy in the Republic's capital city. You could choose to view this as an inconsistency, but it's quite a stretch.

[Just your average movie goer]

I don't really care too much about it these days... blame a certain troll who drove most of us away from this forum (you all know of whom I speak)...

But I just can't resist commenting on your point, Jariten, about the scene between Anakin and Palpatine.

It was tacked on by Lucas as an afterthought. It doesn't show anything, except that Lucas was wrapping up post-production when he suddenly thought "Oh dear, I've forgotten to develop Anakin and Palpatine's relationship... one of the most important things in the whole backstory. I better make a quick scene to cover this up."

And it shows. I admire you, Jariten, for defending these prequels so vigorously. But the good qualities you see in them are only gaps that you filled in with your imagination. I'm not trying to be a prick. I just think that you give Lucas credit for things that he hasn't done and praise things that are not really in his new films.

[jariten]

I don't really care too much about it these days... blame a certain troll who drove most of us away from this forum (you all know of whom I speak)...

it'll be a shame if you let him get to you, he really isnt worth the hassle. Plus, he hasn't posted anything here for a while anyway.

About the other thing- all i'm really doing is making points and illustrating them with quotes from the films. I do that because i'm aware that almost everything I say pro-prequel will be refuted in some way, so I hope it'll add a bit of weight to my arguments. I didnt invent that scene, and I honestly dont see the importance of it being a late addition or not, now its in the film its part of the saga just like the rest. Carroll decision to use themes of reversal in Through the Looking Glass was a last minute addition too, and look what happened to that (to use the first example that came into my head. Im sure there are countless others)

[Lord Aquaman]

Troll? What troll? Who is this Troll that you speak of? I'm still kind of new to the forums so I'm not familiar with who you're talking about.

"Official script said a full fledged Jedi Knight could not be turned to the Dark Side". - I say unto all of you here and now that nothing is impossible. NOTHING. Well, very few things are impossible (like breathing in the vacuum of space).

That particular King Arthur film - where Arthur (Northern Irish actor Nigel Terry) knights an untrained but hearty squire named Percival (Paul Geoffrey) so that he can fight the more experienced knight of noble birth, Sir Gawain (a much younger Liam Neeson in his film debut), all in defense of Queen Guinevere (Cherie Lunghi), only to have Lancelot (the late Nicholas Clay) ride in and save the day at the last minute - is called "Excalibur", made circa 1980 I believe.

I've long assumed that the inconsistencies of which you speak are partly the result of George Lucas's rigid following of Joseph Campbell's "Quest of the Hero" outline, which is that you have a young, inexperienced hero usually of peasant/lower class origins who, for one reason or another, is prompted to venture beyond his/her home on an adventure, usually accompanied by a grandfatherly mentor [insert the word "wizard" here] and a clique of companions whose personality traits and world experiences are vastly different from the hero in question, and along the road of the adventure there are various obstacles and mean spirited characters that represent the forces of evil; more often than not you get a "Black Knight" figure in here.

Take the OT for a moment. The peasant/lower class hero is callow desert farm boy Luke Skywalker. The grandfatherly wizard mentor is Obi-Wan Kenobi. The clique of companions who know a lot more about life than Luke include the liberated feminist tomboy Princess Leia, the sardonic scoundrel pilot Han Solo, the mighty Chewbacca, the effeminate robot C-3P0 and the voiceless but handy R2-D2. The Black Knight Figure, if you will, is Darth Vader, and as the Black Knight or "head thug/lead henchman/enforcer", Vader remains one of the obstacles Luke must overcome along with the training paces that Yoda puts him through (jogging through the forest, swinging from vines ala Tarzan, doing Spider-Man esque backflips, doing hand stands while trying to use the Force with blood rushing to the head, etc).

So in trying to keep pace with that Joseph Campbellian outline, Lucas chalks up the notion of "trials" for the early, pre-Rise of the Empire Jedi students to go through.

[Just your average movie goer]

Jariten, the thing that bothered me with that scene is that there is nothing else in the movie to support it. There is no indication that the Emperor is giving Anakin guidance. If Anakin were to just mention Palpatine's name at some points in the movie, this would help matters quite a lot. But he doesn't. This scene just doesn't resonate with what we're shown in the rest of the film.

That's all I meant.


Oh, and Lord Aquaman. It'd be of me to call the troll by name so I'll give you a hint. His name begins with "H" and rhymes with "cannibal".

[Mad Rabbit]

First off, Thank you for the welcome JYAMG and Jariten! It's great to find a board where everyone is so cordial and friendly! (Well with the exception of the troll, whoever that may be.)

Second, Jariten brought up a point I have never thought about.

And while I'm at this, I might as well bring up the issue of 'agree with you the consul does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be.' that Yoda says... excuse me? But if he strongly disagreed with having Anakin trained only a few seconds earlier, then what the heck made him change his mind so quickly?

he quite clearly closes him eyes in meditation before giving the response. Hence, he confirmed it with the council using his jedi brain. you dont honestly find that concept, that the Jedi council have the powers to do that, implausible do you?

That does indeed seem plausible to me. But maybe he was commuicating the fact that if they disagreed with him he was going to kick their asses. You don't mess with a jedi with midichlorian levels that high.