[Garth Vader]

was the story arc after empire supposed to be different? the ending of the first sequel to star wars left a lot open for its successor and I'm wondering did lucas cut a lot of corners for return of the jedi or was it the only storyline he could take to finish the trilogy effectively? i heard Gary Kurtz didn't like lucas's idea for ROTJ and left over that. what do you think?

[Just your average movie goer]

He cut corners, he got very lazy and he got very sloppy. And Return of the Jedi is the sad and sorry result of that. The Empire Strikes Back expanded the Star Wars universe and laid the way open to take the saga to new heights. There were so many intriguing possibilities for what could happen next.

But Lucas chose not to explore them, settling for a simplistic 'blockbuster' movie that retreaded old ground, re-used old plot threads and allowed the saga to die out in a whimper, in a hopeless mix of scene that were uninspired, poorly edited and probably carelessly filmed.

Return of the Jedi is one huge missed opportunity. A lot of people think it's a good movie... but with all due respect, those people are nuts. It's a so-so movie. Parts of it are entertaining but a lot of it is terribly bland or overly stupid (the amount of slapstick physical comedy in this film is astronomical).

And it's funny that many people here get up in arms when this film is attacked. Because frankly speaking, Return of the Jedi damages the saga more than the prequels because it is the end of the original trilogy... the Star Wars saga ended in a dull whimper that left many of us rather underwhelmed and it's Return of the Jedi's fault.

At least the prequels can be totally discarded and ignored. Return of the Jedi can't be however... because it's the ending to the original trilogy.

More and more these days, I feel that the original trilogy is uncomplete work. You have the first two films and a cliffhanger to-be-continued type ending that lacks the necessary follow-up.

No, Return of the Jedi just does not cut it.

[Garth Vader]

He cut corners, he got very lazy and he got very sloppy.  And Return of the Jedi is the sad and sorry result of that.  The Empire Strikes Back expanded the Star Wars universe and laid the way open to take the saga to new heights.  There were so many intriguing possibilities for what could happen next.

But Lucas chose not to explore them, settling for a simplistic 'blockbuster' movie that retreaded old ground, re-used old plot threads and allowed the saga to die out in a whimper, in a hopeless mix of scene that were uninspired, poorly edited and probably carelessly filmed.

Return of the Jedi is one huge missed opportunity.  A lot of people think it's a good movie... but with all due respect, those people are nuts.  It's a so-so movie.  Parts of it are entertaining but a lot of it is terribly bland or overly stupid (the amount of slapstick physical comedy in this film is astronomical).

And it's funny that many people here get up in arms when this film is attacked.  Because frankly speaking, Return of the Jedi damages the saga more than the prequels because it is the end of the original trilogy... the Star Wars saga ended in a dull whimper that left many of us rather underwhelmed and it's Return of the Jedi's fault.

At least the prequels can be totally discarded and ignored.  Return of the Jedi can't be however... because it's the ending to the original trilogy.

More and more these days, I feel that the original trilogy is uncomplete work.  You have the first two films and a cliffhanger to-be-continued type ending that lacks the necessary follow-up. 

No, Return of the Jedi just does not cut it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd really like to hear your ideas in short JYAMG on how ROTJ could be improved, would you make it a completely different film in terms of story, characters etc. or would you change specific parts of the existing film to improve it? it's not THAT bad is it? Didn't gary kurtz say that the SW series was supposed to contine after empire with luke getting further training from yoda and the main characters searching the galaxy for han solo and his rescue being the main plot for the film? why didn't they make further SW films instead of ending with ROTJ?

[Despondent]

I was thinking earlier about the story that Lando was to die in Jedi. And I have no reason to doubt that. But the initial thought of that happening and the emotional impact involved towers over the actual loss of our traveler from the east, Qui-gon. Psst, the score for "Qui-Gon's funeral" is haunting, I hear. I can't wait 'til it comes out.

So maybe it IS a case of OT vs. ANY abomination of such and, oh yeah. those movies.

As bad as Jedi was, would it help heal the wound if Ep. 3 was better than expected? (sigh)

[Michel Orla]

Simply put, Lucas wasn't sure Star Wars would be a hit. It was. Sci-Fi sequels were rarely hits, Empire was. After that he know he could do anything with the third film and it would make money. So instead of trying to follow in the footsteps of the two previous films, he made Jedi as commercially viable as possible. You tell me what appeal Han has left in ROTJ? He certainly wasn't the lovable rogue we had grown to love. And why the hell did Leia have to be Lukes twin. As JYAMG has said time and time again, its was a cope out by Lucas. Luke was the only character to remain interesting of the main three.

And nothing reeks of commercialism more than the Ewoks or that aerobic style dance and music in Jabba's palace. I still cant stomach three foot midgets getting the best of battle trained Stromtroppers. And that song and dance in Jabba's palace was the first time Star Wars didn't seem so long ago or in a galaxy far, far away. I was something we could watch in our home t.v. as a fad of the early eighties.

This post has been edited by Michel Orla: 01 December 2004 - 10:41 PM

[jariten]

well its the worst OT outing, no doubt about it. but like all sequels, a lot of it depends on what you thought of the film before it and really, Empire is not the masterpiece that a lot of people would have it be. it is a largely plotless, rambling film with a great twist at the end and the best 'character development' of any in the series so far. jedis biggest dissapointment is that they let go of the potentially fantastic concept of vader wanting to overthrow the emperor and take luke as his right hand man.

still though, looked on as pure throwaway saturday morning action serial swinging over a ravine fluff (the basis of all SW), it works. sure, what it basically amounts to is two big set pieces and yoda dying in the middle, but find me anyone under the age of 18 (and older probably) who still wont get a kick out of seeing all hell break loose on the sail barge, or vader and luke going at it with the brilliantly hammed up cackling emperor in the background.

and the ideas- Jabba, the sarlacc, the end space battle (yeah there was a snails pace one in ANH) the ewoks....ok they were rubbish. why DO all those guards suddenly run away from the building they were supposed to be defending? how DOES han run about 3 feet and still escape that massive explosion? how...well lets not get dragged down into this.

as a throwaway popcorn flick, it works. as vechile for rich characters with involved dialogue, its rubbish. but when was sw ever that??

[Xombie]

Yes, Jariten, some of RotJ is rediculous but enjoyable. (So, if I fall into a Sarlac it will take a 1000 years to digest me? What's it using for stomach acid, pure spring avion water? And would I really "suffer" for that thousand years or would I just pass out and die from hunger after a few days or weeks top?) Some of it is enjoyably original (Jabba is one of the best personifications of unbridled excess ever put on film [and, yes. I just said something positive about Star Wars, RotJ no less]).

But there is just no defending the character of The Emperor. The role is played up in the most embarrassingly hammy over-the-top manner conceivable. Buck-toothed slant-eyed Japanese Generals tying blonde damsels to Death machines on 10 cent 1940s Captain America comics would be embarrassed to watch such a rediculously overplayed performance as the one put on by Emperor Evil in that movie. This is who has taken over the galaxy? The Wicked Witch from Snow White?

The Emperor is the Jar Jar Binks of the OT, ruining every frame of film he's on.

[HK 47]

i heard Gary Kurtz didn't like lucas's idea for ROTJ and left over that. what do you think?

They had some sort of disagreement, true. According to Kurtz, Gygax wasn't really interested in making a great film, only money. Lucas said something like "we could have made just as much money without making a great movie" to which Kurtz reply was "But it was worth it, wasn't it?". (This was regarding ESB.) The thread with the correct quote is here somewhere, can't find it.

When you think about it, it is sickening that a man with values like that has successfully surrounded himself with such amazing talent.

As for ROTJ, even back then when I was a kid, I had pictured something far more interesting than what we got. I remember hoping to see the Empire homeworld for instance.

[jariten]

The role is played up in the most embarrassingly hammy over-the-top manner conceivable.

but thats exactly why it works. all the heroes and villians in the OT are cut and paste jobs- the boo hiss villian in vader, the lovable rogue in solo, the idealistic touth, the wizard etc. etc. Mcdirmid new exactly what SW was and exactly what that role required of him. from the look of the ep3 trailer, hes going to reprise that role with gusto. y'know "bwah ha ha ha!!!" and all that

[Just your average movie goer]

jedis biggest dissapointment is that they let go of the potentially fantastic concept of vader wanting to overthrow the emperor and take luke as his right hand man.

I am in full agreement with you on this one. And this is typical of what I meant earlier... Return of the Jedi basically abandons all the interesting plot threads left open at the end of the previous movie.

I'd really like to hear your ideas in short JYAMG on how ROTJ could be improved, would you make it a completely different film in terms of story, characters etc. or would you change specific parts of the existing film to improve it? it's not THAT bad is it?

If it's something you haven't watched since you were a child, it's not that bad. But if you were to watch the original trilogy now, you would find that, while Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back still inspire you the way they did, Return of the Jedi does not grow up with you.

It's one of the biggest problems with the film. Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back can be enjoyed by kids and adults alike. Return of the Jedi however is embarrassing for me to watch as an adult.

What I would prefer is a film that has the maturity of its predecessor. I want a plot that can't be summed up on a mobile phone text message. I want Han Solo and Princess Leia back... not the cardboard caricatures we got instead. It seemed that Lucas thought that all you need to have Han Solo is have Harrison Ford dressed in his clothes... and then it'd all just work out perfectly.

I'm also suprised by how many people are satisfied with Jabba and the rescue.

Let me just give you a brief list of problems and solutions...

1. Jabba is a slug that CAN'T MOVE.

- Make him a humanoid.

2. Jabba seems to spend more time molesting and murdering innocent women and eating frogs than actually managing a galactic smuggling ring.

- Make him at least LOOK like he's in the business.

3. Jabba, head of a galactic smuggling ring, lives in a primitive stronghold far away from the nearest spaceport. His main guards carry axes instead of guns and nobody in his place has a ship.

- Put him somewhere more modern and show some signs of technology. Have smugglers coming in and out of the place, instead of just making it a muppet hangout.

4. The rescue... Lando goes in ahead and does nothing. Luke gives Threepio and R2 to Jabba. Leia goes in and gives Chewbacca to Jabba and then gets captured. And then Luke comes in... instead of having to rescue just Han Solo, Luke now has to rescue three people, two droids and one wookie.

- Have Luke just go in and rescue Han straight off the bat. I'd have Lando go in and pretend to negotiate with Jabba while Luke rescues Han, as a diversion. And then when they escape, have Jabba send some ships after them to show that he actually HAS them.

5. Boba Fett was there when he'd finished the job already.

- Have Boba Fett NOT there.

6. There is a Death Star and we've already had one of those so it seems like a really bad case of deja vu.

- Have the rebels attack something else. ANYTHING ELSE. But not another freakin' Death Star.

7. After suffering a terrible defeat in the battle of Hoth, the scattered remnants of the rebellion... are back with more ships than ever before. They even have huge cruisers that can take on Star Destroyers.

- Let's go back to the rebellion reeling in its darkest hour. I think this would be a lot more dramatic and appropriate for the final film in a trilogy, where the stakes should be raised... not lowered.

8. Star Destroyers are suddenly not scary anymore and in fact, you can blow even the biggest ones up with the greatest of ease.

- Don't allow them to be blown up left, right and centre by cheap potshots.

9. Cinematography is dull and uninspiring.

- Use a bit of creativity in shot construction. Use camera shots that demonstrate how large the Star Destroyers are. If you have two people (like Luke and Leia for example) swing over a deep pit, use some shots that make it look exhilirating rather than filming it from behind and not even showing their feet so you can't see how high they are.

10. There are ewoks.

- Have no ewoks.

11. Luke thinks he can complete his Jedi training during a ten minute stopover at Yoda's place on his way to an important rebel meeting.

- Have Luke wait until after the movie to complete his training. In fact, it would be a lot better in terms of narrative. As for advancing the plot, Yoda has done all he can. I like him as much as the next guy (or well I did before I saw him in the prequels) but we don't need him in this movie.

12. The 'other' was Leia.

- Introduce a new character, someone exciting. You could have someone like Mara Jade for example... my idea was that Vader could capture Luke and then together plot to destroy the Empire. He can take Luke to a secret world where he will prepare and there Luke can find that Vader already has an apprentice, a woman strong in the force that he hasn't told the Emperor about. The woman would be all for joining Vader and Luke could try to turn HER to the good side. At the end of the movie, one of them could put their life on the line for the other.

13. After taking control of the Imperial Fleet and doing things his way, Darth Vader has suddenly gone all soft and has become a sad, pathetic mixture of Daddy and the Emperor's monkey boy.

- Have Vader carry on with his plans to overthrow the Emperor. This guy is climbing the ranks. And yes, he's Luke's Dad but just make it that the only reason why he wants Luke around is to help his own ends. He'll share power of course but don't make him such a soft "Daddy loves you" type.

14. Vader's redemption.

- Don't do it the way it was done in the movie. I don't mind his noble sacrifice but just make it the sacrifice of the villain who's disgusted at what he's become and wants out. Have Vader make ammends, he can talk to Luke and his apprentice but don't show him partying in the afterlife.

15. Obi Wan talks to Luke for fifteen minutes, answering his every question and talking about the weather, and sitting on a log.

- In case anyone's forgotten, Obi Wan is supposed to be dead. Let's keep him that way. Like Yoda, I don't feel he has anything new to offer now. I'd rather keep the Jedi masters out of the whole movie. Have Luke make it on his own.

16. Leia is Luke's sister.

- Lucas forgot this but I didn't... Leia kissed Luke well and good in The Empire Strikes Back. Don't make her his sister and definitely don't have her confessing to have always known that. "If you always knew that, then WHY did you kiss your brother?"

17. The Emperor is an incompetent old fool who slouches in his chair, cackles and says "Good, good" all the time.

- Make the Emperor someone an intelligent, ruthless, intimidating leader.

18. Han Solo is not in the movie.

- Put him back. Watch the first films a couple of times if you've forgotten what he was actually like. Because at the moment, it feels like he died in carbonite, someone switched the bodies and put in a Harrison Ford mannequin.




I'm not sure if I've covered all the changes I'd like to make but that's a few off the top of my head.

[WhoCares]

I agree that ROTJ wasnt a great movie, but they were parts I really like. Rest assure I dont like any of the Endor scenes, but i really like the bargain scene and Luke's cofrontations with Palpatine, and it has my favorite line of the Saga: "So be it... Jedi".

This post has been edited by WhoCares: 02 December 2004 - 01:32 PM

[Revan-47]

Yes, Jariten, some of RotJ is rediculous but enjoyable. (So, if I fall into a Sarlac it will take a 1000 years to digest me? What's it using for stomach acid, pure spring avion water? And would I really "suffer" for that thousand years or would I just pass out and die from hunger after a few days or weeks top?) Some of it is enjoyably original (Jabba is one of the best personifications of unbridled excess ever put on film [and, yes. I just said something positive about Star Wars, RotJ no less]).

  But there is just no defending the character of The Emperor. The role is played up in the most embarrassingly hammy over-the-top manner conceivable. Buck-toothed slant-eyed Japanese Generals tying blonde damsels to Death machines on 10 cent 1940s Captain America comics would be embarrassed to watch such a rediculously overplayed performance as the one put on by Emperor Evil in that movie. This is who has taken over the galaxy? The Wicked Witch from Snow White?

  The Emperor is the Jar Jar Binks of the OT, ruining every frame of film he's on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dont know where you are coming with that. I think palpatine is the best character in RotJ. ok he is lame in The Empire Strikes back and the prequels but without the emporer i wouldnt even watch RotJ

[floppydisk]

I like the Emporer. He's not lame in ESB cause he's only on for five minutes, and in the prequels he's a stupid idiot. But in ROTJ I like him. Until he screams like a girl when Vader throws him in the pit.

[Darth Player]

I think the baton should have been passed from Obi Wan's materializing from the great beyond to Yoda, who recently crossed over and could have been seen helping Luke in spirit form at the conclusive battle with The Emperor, maybe surprising Palpetine a bit for Luke to do his Jedi thing and take the old geezer out.

The galaxy must have gotten resupplied with idiot pills after Empire, they certainly used them during the PT. A more logical choice for the Emperor's throne room would have been at the center of the new Death Star, instead of the tower which could have been taken out by a Rebel cruiser with nearly all its crew off the ship on a one way mission during the epic final battle. And no one that cunning would have had a giant open unprotected shaft that would be a danger to them. The precedent that ROTJ set forth that was reinforced with the PT is that it seems like first drafts make the cut and get filmed.

The movie holds a special place in my heart even with its flaws because I had a great time seeing it with my dad when it first came out and I was in the fifth grade. I can accept Jedi on a level I cannot accept the PT.

[Firewhenready]

I disagree that ROTJ doesn't grow up with you; it's grown up with me. There are parts of it that could be better(it is a little weird that Luke's lack of training is no longer an issue), but overall I found the Ewoks easy to ignore, and the entire thing with Vader and the Emperor trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side was an awesome, memorable piece of the Star Wars trilogy. Is there more that could've been done? Perhaps, but isn't that always the case? In my mind, enough was done to bring a satisfying conclusion to the trilogy.