A True Story - Chefelf.com Night Life

this is taken from a real life forum. Examine how "krazy komrade" is treated, and the responses, the disinformation, and the reactions...it is a very interesting epic.

krazykomrade09-13-2003, 01:36 PM
Seriously, I have yet to see a single person demonstrate even an elementry level of knowledge on Current Events. I mean, just look through the last few threads/posts: Hitler: Good or Bad, How many people has communism killed, is revolution ever effective, could isreal kick the arab's asses, do pirates suck or kick ass? Seriously people, I would not be surprised if the next thread was on whether or not Tony Blair is actually a space alien bent on bringing back the reign of Genghas Kahn. Let me fill you in on some recent disputer, Hitler was evil (not to mention that that really doesn't fall into the catagory of Current Events") Communism has never existed, and as such it would be impossible for it to have killed anyone, revolution is A. effective (look at the american revolution, as red dagger pointed out) and B. inevitable. The world is a horrible place for the majority of the human race (most humans dont live in America or Europe; contrary to popular belief the western hemisphere is not the only one) and it is only getting worse. Don't think so? Then you're a dumbass; look at the statistics, dumbass. Here, I'll even give your lazy dumbass a link so you don't have to reply saying: "lol what stats7 r u talking about, yer, waz da werd, retarted!!!1" http://www.newyouth....estingstats.asp Isreal could totally kick the Arab world's ass, they already fucking did, its called the 7 days war, and the only reason that Isreal doesn't own the middle east is that it does not want to, it wants to be left alone. Thats right, Isreal not only kicked the Arab's asses, they did it in less than a week; hell even France could hold out longer than that. And any person with any sense of history or the true nature of pirates knows that pirates kick ass beyond all reason and explanation. And Tony Blair is not an alien, and not bringing back Genghis Kahn. God, people are stupid. Stop being such a dumbass, and reply with a intelligent comment based upon facts and reason instead of just lashing out with your emotions and blind assumptions.

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Anti-Hero09-13-2003, 06:13 PM
maybe its cause of something you did.

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droogsteve09-13-2003, 07:13 PM
That site is as full of shit as you are. It's sole purpose is to brainwash gullible idiots like yourself by playing on the teenage need to rebel. Even the introduction to the page that you provided cracks me up: "This section will provide constantly updated statistics you can use as ammunition when explaining the world under capitalism!" In other words "Use these bullshit 'statistics' to brainwash your little friends!" They no doubt provide all these facts to keep kids from having to look in actual history books for themselves and learning the obvious: Communism has been a miserable failure where ever and when ever it was tried. None of the "facts" are backed up by sources and most are, in fact, ridiculous lies. (The urban unemployment rate in the US is 50%??!!) How dense are you? How many times must Communism fail before you accept that it's a failure? You were the type of child that kept touching the hot stove despite repeatedly being burned, weren't you? Gullible wannabe "rebels" like yourself are the reason cults exist. You'll believe anything as long as it goes against the mainstream and pisses people off. You see yourself as special and somehow above it all, when in fact you're a living breathing stereotype. You're a prime example of an MTV style pre-packaged wannabe revolutionary. You believe that people either respect your struggle or fear your revolutionary ideas, when in fact they just laugh at your foolishness. I'll bet that you have a picture of Che Guevera on your wall, don't you? Just like you see in the rooms of a million other spoiled little shits who write about the oppressed working class on the $1300 laptop that Mommy and Daddy bought them. I AM the working class and it's obvious to me that you're full of shit.

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Viet Era Marine09-13-2003, 08:36 PM
OMG! Another wannabe commie. God save us all from these rugrats.

Pssst, Jr. It's never worked before & it won't work now.

Have a nice life! :D

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droogsteve09-13-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Viet Era Marine
OMG! Another wannabe commie. God save us all from these rugrats. It does seem like more than a coincidence that we got two new ones in the same night. I'll bet Marxist told some of his wannabe commie buddies how we were picking on him. :p

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MrHardy09-13-2003, 09:23 PM
.....and another one is mentally raped by Droog so bad they ran away crying and will never come back.

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shade09-13-2003, 10:18 PM
How many times must Communism fail before you accept that it's a failure?
But but, if you just take all the propaganda at face value and try to ignore the fact that you are living in a rotting government apartment driving your wonderful government provided car, communism does rock!!

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Stanky10509-13-2003, 10:49 PM
Wow, Komrade is so smart. He just repeated our arguments back at us. Let us point at him and laugh.

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MrHardy09-13-2003, 11:01 PM
Did this Dumbfuck really call us asinine. Hes so fucking thick headed he doesn't even realize that hes in a JOKESITES forum and we're all here to have fun as well as argue about current events.

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A.N.T.H.R.A.X.09-14-2003, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Rikimaru
There are other words to describe stupidity you know. I prefer Zionist.

i prefer rikimaru...
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krazykomerade, you dumbass, it was called the Six Day War, the Israelis kicked every country surrounding it's ass, NOT the WHOLE middle east!...

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krazykomrade09-14-2003, 01:29 AM
Wow. I had no idea this would be this much fun. All I have to do is repeat what everyone has said, then call it asinine, ans I can get a bunch of total strangers all pissed off at me and yelling at me. I find it hard to believe that my article bothered people so much that they had to go on rants about how I am a dumbass and a wanna-be commie. I feel like I just said the word "bomb" in an airport, and everyone starts freaking out. I think I shall do this more often.
And on to the replies...
To my great dissapointment, no one seems to have read the actual post past the first 5 or 6 lines. In fact, the most important sentence I wrote was the last one, but in hindsight I realize that was a mistake because I should have known that you dumbasses could not have gotten through half the post before making some dumbass reply.
Stop being such a dumbass, and reply with a intelligent comment based upon facts and reason instead of just lashing out with your emotions and blind assumptions.
And what replies did I get?
maybe its cause of something you did.
I AM the working class and it's obvious to me that you're full of shit.
Pssst, Jr. It's never worked before & it won't work now.
Wow, Komrade is so smart. He just repeated our arguments back at us. Let us point at him and laugh.
Did this Dumbfuck really call us asinine.
OMG! Another wannabe commie. God save us all from these rugrats.
And of course my personal favorite,
They no doubt provide all these facts to keep kids from having to look in actual history books for themselves and learning the obvious: Communism has been a miserable failure where ever and when ever it was tried.
"Obviously " droogsteve is not very good at taking his own advice. While all the other replies just made random outlashes and insults, droogsteve made these mistakes, but then concluded that people should look in history books, while he himself has not. If he had, he would have realized that communism has never existed. Paco Juan, what the fuck is wrong with you? You try to condemn something that has never been implemented by saying how it never worked in the past? Can you see the contradiction there buddy? Here, I know half of you will not read half this post, just like the first one, so I'll make my most important points in all caps so you can see them, and hopefully, hopefully, make an intellectual reply to them, as opposed to just typing "your justt a wannbe commie dumass." COMMUNISM HAS NEVER EXISTED AND THEREFORE CANNOT HAVE BEEN A FAILURE. Now, I know right now you're about to cream your pants by writing a really malicious and nasty reply about what a dumbfuck you think I am, but before you do that, try to include SOMETHIHG RELEVENT. In other words, something that has to do with my main point. I will give droogsteve credit for psuedo-relevant replies. Speaking of which, droogsteve, I made my point in my first post (Revolution is inevitable) and I gave EVIDENCE to back it up. In your reply, you just stated that the evidence was crap, and said that I was crap. Woah, stop the presses: The world's most brilliant arguement has been unleashed. If you think the stats are shit, (BTW those ecomonic stats you were denying came from the United States government, you can view all the US's past economic reports on .gov sites, that list only picked out the most relevant ones) then you could, gee I don't know, give evidence to support your side?? No wait, that would be too easy. Much better to call me a commie wannabe dumbass, and to go on some random rant about how I somehow contribute to cults and am in fact a rich snob who just acts rebellious to conform. I challenge you to show WHY and HOW I am just a "gullible idiot"/"wannabe rebel" instead of just randomly insulting me. Anyone can call another person a gullible dumbass, that doesn't constitute me being "mentally raped," as MrHardy put it, that constitutes me being insulted by a total stanger over the internet, can you tell that I am crying over it? How about actually using some form of logical arguement to show how I'm wrong? Maybe some HISTORICAL EVIDENCE; perhaps even if I'm lucky You could try and make a POINT OF YOUR OWN as opposed to just calling other peoples point shitty without backing it up. If you are going to go around saying other posts are shit, then at least say why. (And for the ASININE: saying that I am a commie wannabe and/or dumbfuck is not a reason or an argument, that is just your unsupported opinion.) I am not opposed to people calling me a dumbfuck, I am opposed to people calling me a dumbfuck and not backing it up with a reason. Now, the next sentence is really really important, so make sure you read it carefully, in fact you may want to read it twice so you don't miss anything: STOP BEING SUCH A DUMBASS, AND REPLY WITH A INTELLIGENT COMMENT BASED UPON FACTS AND REASON INSTEAD OF JUST LASHING OUT WITH YOUR EMOTIONS AND BLIND ASSUMPTIONS/INSULTS.Did this Dumbfuck really call us asinine. Did this Dumbfuck really call us asinine. OMG! Another wannabe commie. God save us all from these rugrats.

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Anti-Hero09-14-2003, 04:54 AM
I dont really care. I didn't read past the first three lines and I posted a sarcastic remark.
so what.
it doesn't matter.
I could just as well leave this board.
I never flamed you for whatever political ideals you have
and I usually don't except in some cases.
I never flamed you.
I don't really care what you call cuba and china and north korea in terms of politics.
because people die unjustly there,
i conclude that they are countries with low standards of living and low value of life.

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droogsteve09-14-2003, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by krazykomrade
"Obviously " droogsteve is not very good at taking his own advice. While all the other replies just made random outlashes and insults, droogsteve made these mistakes, but then concluded that people should look in history books, while he himself has not. If he had, he would have realized that communism has never existed. Paco Juan, what the fuck is wrong with you? You try to condemn something that has never been implemented by saying how it never worked in the past? Can you see the contradiction there buddy? Here, I know half of you will not read half this post, just like the first one, so I'll make my most important points in all caps so you can see them, and hopefully, hopefully, make an intellectual reply to them, as opposed to just typing "your justt a wannbe commie dumass." COMMUNISM HAS NEVER EXISTED AND THEREFORE CANNOT HAVE BEEN A FAILURE. Stop being deliberately obtuse and nitpicking about semantics. You know perfectly goddamn well that when people refer to communism they are referring to the communist parties of the Soviet Union, China, Cuba and similar nations. True communism means a society without government or money. It's a fairy tale. If you actually believe that it could work in the real world, I stand by my assertion that you're a gullible idiot. How about actually using some form of logical arguement to show how I'm wrong? Maybe some HISTORICAL EVIDENCE; perhaps even if I'm lucky You could try and make a POINT OF YOUR OWN as opposed to just calling other peoples point shitty without backing it up. If you are going to go around saying other posts are shit, then at least say why. (And for the ASININE: saying that I am a commie wannabe and/or dumbfuck is not a reason or an argument, that is just your unsupported opinion.) I am not opposed to people calling me a dumbfuck, I am opposed to people calling me a dumbfuck and not backing it up with a reason. Now, the next sentence is really really important, so make sure you read it carefully, in fact you may want to read it twice so you don't miss anything: STOP BEING SUCH A DUMBASS, AND REPLY WITH A INTELLIGENT COMMENT BASED UPON FACTS AND REASON INSTEAD OF JUST LASHING OUT WITH YOUR EMOTIONS AND BLIND ASSUMPTIONS/INSULTS. You're joking right? This next sentence is very important so I'll type it all in caps so you don't skip over it. You might want to read it twice so you don't miss anything: YOU JUST DESCRIBED YOUR ENTIRE POST!! Let's recap: You begin the post by calling everyone on the board asinine, using the word "dumbass" several times. You then play your stupid little word games regarding the word "communism" despite the fact that it's crystal clear what everyone is referring to. You then post your pointless link. (Wow! It's on the internet. It must be true!!) You then conclude by yammering some nonsense about Tony Blair, aliens, pirates and Ghengis Khan. Your entire post was just pissing all over everyone else. You didn't post one intellegent coherent thought. You admit as much yourself: Originally posted by krazykomrade All I have to do is repeat what everyone has said, then call it asinine, ans I can get a bunch of total strangers pissed off at me and yelling at me. And that's all you did. You see? I did take the time to read your entire post. That's how I know that in effect, it said nothing.

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BigMattTheHobo09-14-2003, 06:51 AM
fucktard goes and steals an image from maddox's web page. i bet he would be happy with that.

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droogsteve09-14-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by BigMattTheHobo
fucktard goes and steals an image from maddox's web page. i bet he would be happy with that. He probably doesn't even realize that it's a goof. I'll bet he thinks that's an actual picture of Che Guevera.

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BigMattTheHobo09-14-2003, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by droogsteve
He probably doesn't even realize that it's a goof. I'll bet he thinks that's an actual picture of Che Guevera.

hahaha yep, another stupid kid who wears the che shirts and the red stars because they think its cool to be a "commie" but in fact they have no idea what communism is about and just want to look cool.

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Timebomb09-14-2003, 07:46 AM
That sure was alot of typing. Kinda seems odd that he would waste so much time on a forum full of "dumbasses". I think droogsteve has pretty much owned your ass, but just in case there is still a trace, I'd better bust out the commie cleanser.

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krazykomrade09-14-2003, 09:30 AM
Well, I'd like to give everyone a big hearty round of applause for having slighty better replies than those to my first post. But then again, that really doesn't say much. I think that I may have made many statements to different people, but other people thought it was to them, that was a mistake on my part. So, I will address my comments to specific people to avoid that confusion.

Anti-Hero: I did not mean to imply that you had flamed me, and if that is the impression that you got, then I apologize. In fact I would like to thank you for being about the only person who did not. And I agree with you 100% that Cube, China, and North Korea have low standards of living and low values of life, as well as the fact that people die unjustly there.

BigMattTheHobo: I did not "steal" that image of Che from Maddox's website. In fact, he has a page, http://maddox.xmission.com/pages.html, where he actually tells people that they can use all his images, and he even has a button that automattically sets the icon of your choice to be your buddyicon. Furthermore, I never lied or claimed that I made that image myself. If anyone had asked, I would have told them I got it from Maddox's site. Secondly, I am well aware of the fact that picture is a spoof of Che, and that he never actually had an eyepatch. And lastly, how do you justify your comments :
hahaha yep, another stupid kid who wears the che shirts and the red stars because they think its cool to be a "commie" but in fact they have no idea what communism is about and just want to look cool.
You have no idea who I am, you have never met me, and hell knows you have never had an intellectual discussion with me, so how on earth do you justify that? By the way, what exactly is a fucktard? I have only tried to have an intellectual discussion, and all you can do is to make personal attacks on me. Why?

Timebomb: I do not think that me spending 5-10 minutes a day to type a single post is really that much of a waste of time. As you can see, I have only posed like 5 times total. A waste of time would be like several hundred. Secondly, how has droogsteve "owned my ass"? I feel it is exceptionally apparent that I have "owned" all of your asses. I have made several legitimate arguments, and after several days, all I have recieved is personal attacks. In policy debate, the standard for debate in the US, one would say that my argument "flowed through." That means I made my point, and my opponent was too stupid to answer it, so I automatically win. Similar to in a court case if one side does not show up, then the other side automatically wins. So I have clearly won whatever "debate" (I use this term VERY loosely) on all levels.

And finally,

droogsteve:
Stop being deliberately obtuse and nitpicking about semantics.
I would hardly consider using proper terminology nitpicking. Anyone with a basic knowlege of international politics/goverments knows that USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, are bourgouis bonapartist governments, commonly refered to as Stalinist governments. To call such a country a "communist" country would be like calling Isreal a Muslim nation. Muslim/Jewish, its all the same; stop nitpicking. WRONG. If you want to debate these issues, you have to know the terminology.
True communism means a society without government or money. No buddy, thats Anarchism. Again, terminology difficulties. Communism would be the classless worker's democratic collectivization of all social and economic aspects of the world. Some word games I play huh? Actually, its called proper definitions. I have never played any word games at all or tried to mislead anyone. And as for my previous posts, there were two seperate issues. The first one was me recapping what i have read, calling it asinine, and saying it makes as much sense as the tony blair/alien/genghas kahn story. Second issue: me saying that revolution is inevitable. Then I gave evidence, with that "stupid link" (Buddy, I already told you, the stats are from the US GOVERNMENT. The government does economic reports every single year to compare itself over time. "If its on the internet it must be true!!" is not what I said or implied. I said that if the government posts information about its own economy then I assume it is true. Lets try a little reading comprehension) No one even touched my argument of revolution, not even the mighty droogsteve.

No matter what I type, I know that all I will recieve from the other members in this forum is personal attacks and flaming me. Obviously no one here wants to have any discussion on current events, all everyone wants to do is insult each other. Well, you guys sure showed me up by calling me a dumbass/dumbfuck/fucktard/retard/commie wannabe/ gullible idiot. If this forum had been titled "Insult Forum", then you guys would have owned my ass, and I would be hanging my head in shame right now and I would have been "mentally raped" as MrHardy put it. But its actually the current event forum. Which means that I owned all your asses. Check and Mate.

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BlueMind09-14-2003, 10:13 AM
Uh, I don't really see who you're trying to argue with. Almost everyone on these forums, with the exception of 2-3 angry pre-teenagers, agrees with almost everything you said in your first post.

Basically, what you did was agree with the majority of the forum members and then called them retards.

If, you're trying to lash out against the bulk of the members on these forums, you failed miserably.

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BlueMind09-14-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by BlueMind
with the exception of 2-3 angry pre-teenagers

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Timebomb09-14-2003, 11:58 AM
I might agree with some points he made. But his attitude is a huge turn off. And I think I speak for most of us when I say that no matter how right you may be, if you act like your superior to people, people arent going to like you.

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droogsteve09-14-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by krazykomrade
You have no idea who I am, you have never met me, and hell knows you have never had an intellectual discussion with me, so how on earth do you justify that? By the way, what exactly is a fucktard? I have only tried to have an intellectual discussion, and all you can do is to make personal attacks on me. Why?
Again i refer to your initial post. Your entire post was attacking people that you never met. You seem to be quite myopic as far as your own behavior is concerned. As for an intellectual discussion, I'm still waiting for you to start one. When you take away the completely unjustified superior attitude and childish insults, all that's left is a vague assertion that revolution is inevitable and a link. You consider posting a link an argument? What are you going to do next, tell us to watch a documentary about Karl Marx on the history channel and then claim another "victory"? Oh by the way, I can't find where that site lists the government sources for those "facts" listed. I've tried to find the one about 50% urban unemployment on various US government websites as you suggested but haven't had any luck.

I would hardly consider using proper terminology nitpicking. Anyone with a basic knowlege of international politics/goverments knows that USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, are bourgouis bonapartist governments, commonly refered to as Stalinist governments. To call such a country a "communist" country would be like calling Isreal a Muslim nation. Muslim/Jewish, its all the same; stop nitpicking. WRONG. If you want to debate these issues, you have to know the terminology. Does Israel refer to themselves as a Muslim nation? Both the Soviet Union and China called themslves communist governments. It is widely accepted that communism refers to those systems. Type "communism" into a seach engine and see what comes up. It's true that those systems were not the textbook definitions of communism. However, instead of simply pointing that out in your post, you simply repeat over and over "communism has never existed!!" Why? Because you wanted somebody to respond with a post saying "WTF are you talking about, what about Russia and China??!!" so you could mock them some more. You are clearly not even interested in intellegent debate. If you were, you would have simply presented your facts and allowed people to present their arguments. You seem far more interested in attempting to make others look stupid to satisfy your overinflated ego.
No buddy, thats Anarchism. Again, terminology difficulties. Communism would be the classless worker's democratic collectivization of all social and economic aspects of the world. Some word games I play huh? Actually, its called proper definitions. First of all, I'm not your buddy. And secondly, I know the difference between communism and anarchism. They are BOTH societies without government or money. Karl Marx, in his Communist Manifesto, advocates that the workers (proletariats and petite bourgeoisie) rise up and overthrow the government and businesses and take control themselves. In theory it is a classless society in which everything is shared and owned by all. In it's true form, it follows the mandate of a direct democracy in which the mob or the general population rules and allocates resources according to the will of the majority with equal consideration given to all without exclusion. Money and government would be superfluous. Understand now?

No matter what I type, I know that all I will recieve from the other members in this forum is personal attacks and flaming me. Obviously no one here wants to have any discussion on current events, all everyone wants to do is insult each other. Well, you guys sure showed me up by calling me a dumbass/dumbfuck/fucktard/retard/commie wannabe/ gullible idiot. If this forum had been titled "Insult Forum", then you guys would have owned my ass, and I would be hanging my head in shame right now and I would have been "mentally raped" as MrHardy put it. But its actually the current event forum. Which means that I owned all your asses. Check and Mate. At the risk of repeating myself, I will again point out that you have yet to offer an intellegent point, seeming to prefer petty insults and an astoundingly condescending attitude considering that you have yet to offer any intellegent argument. (Let me point out again: posting a link is NOT an argument). Check and Mate? To continue your chess metaphor: Your posts are the equivlent of watching two other people play chess, calling them both idiots, knocking over all the pieces and claiming victory for yourself. You contribute NOTHING to the game.

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Instigator09-14-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by droogsteve
Does Israel refer to themselves as a Muslim nation? Both the Soviet Union and China called themslves communist governments.

Actually, that's irrelevant. The Nazis were the National Socialists Party, when in fact their system was almost entirely anti-social welfare and they tracked down socialists and had them executed. You should know enough to know that what a country calls itself does NOT, in many cases, coincide with what that country is.

America's leaders call the US a democracy, but it's actually a republic (as shown in the pledge of allegiance). Think deeper than the first level of an issue.

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droogsteve09-14-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Instigator
Actually, that's irrelevant. The Nazis were the National Socialists Party, when in fact their system was almost entirely anti-social welfare and they tracked down socialists and had them executed. You should know enough to know that what a country calls itself does NOT, in many cases, coincide with what that country is. Of course I realize that. You're taking my statement out of context. Instead of simply pointing out that the Soviet and Chinese Communist parties weren't actually communist, komrade just repeated "Communism never existed" over and over when it was clear what people were referring to. He just wanted someone to submit a post saying " Hey, Russia and China were communist" so he could make them look stupid, which is his entire agenda on this board. Inst, if I responded to one of your posts by bringing up Germany under National Socialism, would you a) Accept the commonly held definition of National Socialism, which is known to be referring to Hitler and the Nazi party and respond accordingly. b)Point out that the Nazis weren't actually socialists and respond accordingly. Or c) act deliberately dense by repeating over and over "There was no National Socialism in Germany" without explanation, hoping that someone will post "Yes there was, that's what the Nazis were" so you could make them look stupid. My guess is that you, not being an asshole, would choose a or b.

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reddagger09-14-2003, 11:01 PM
when people use the soviett union and chinese governments as examples of communism it is relevent for komrade to show that these countries are in fact not communist. and when your definitions of communism are inherently contradictory to the entire philosophy of communism it is fine for komrade to correct you, he is not acting superior to you (even though he is) he is only providing a climate which provides for better, more informed discussion.

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Stanky10509-15-2003, 12:00 AM
*points at Komrade and laughs*

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reddagger09-15-2003, 12:02 AM
ok then stanky, you do that

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droogsteve09-15-2003, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by reddagger
when people use the soviett union and chinese governments as examples of communism it is relevent for komrade to show that these countries are in fact not communist. He showed no such thing. He never mentioned either country or offered ANY explanation of what communism actually was. He was only interested in baiting someone to respond that the Soviet Union and China were communist nations so he could prove them wrong and act superior. Dagger, you seem like you're actually interested in reasonable discussion. Komrade only seems interested in pissing people off. he is only providing a climate which provides for better, more informed discussion. Which part of his posts promote informed discussion more? The part where he calls everyone on the forum asinine, the part where he calls everyone dumbasses or the part where he says that "he owned all your asses"?

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reddagger09-15-2003, 12:42 AM
i was refering to when he said he was not nitpicking only defining his terms so everyone could be on the same page and have a good debate. he does seem a little stand-off-ish, but that is his way i suppose. I think communism is more a theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. so the goverment controles all means of production and there is no private property, however, the people control the government throughdirect democracy (unlike our current system).

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droogsteve09-15-2003, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by reddagger
he does seem a little stand-off-ish, but that is his way i suppose. He's more than a little standoffish. He's extremely arrogant and condescending. Which is fine if he wants to start a flamefest for it's own sake. But it obscures any valid points that he might make and renders an intellegent discussion impossible. I think communism is more a theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. so the goverment controles all means of production and there is no private property, however, the people control the government throughdirect democracy (unlike our current system). I agree that such a system, in theory, would be a good thing. However, you do realize that because of simple human nature, such a system could never be successful in the real world, right? There are lazy people who would not contribute their share, greedy people who want more than their share, corrupt people willing to supply those greedy people, and ambitious power hungry people who want to control it all. I don't understand labeling yourself as a disciple of a system that's doomed to failure.

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reddagger09-15-2003, 01:11 AM
you make a very interesting point, however, i am inclined to disagree. communism is a process that takes a very long while to achieve. marx details this under the five stages in economic development, the last one being communism. during the transitinal period (socialism) and the end perios (communism) there would be little to no "free" handout. communism is about provding all people who participate activly within a society (or are physically/mentally impared) with a high standard of living. i font believe that a truly classless society is possible, but it is possible to limit the gap between the rich and the poor. currently ceos make 180 times that of their average employee. and in 2002 ceo's saw there incomes rise over 500% while employess incomes dropped over 10%. you tell me if this system is right? you got it wrong, capatilism is the system thats doomed to fail.

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reddagger09-15-2003, 01:17 AM
one more thing... i resent the fact that capatilists see the only motivation for worrk in this country as starvation and not being able to pay the rent. there are other motivations to work hard, like enjoying your work and the benefits that encompass it. or the amount of free time one would have under a tru communis society. if you are interested in these motivations check out www.newyouth.com FAQs.

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Anti-Hero09-15-2003, 01:42 AM
work is survival. do you think cavemen felt proud that they killed a deer after trailing it for hours?
nope.
they felt hungry.
The only reason to excell is to be able to catch that deer with less effort.
you feel good about thinking your way through it and getting the deer easier.
thats the spawn of advancement.
The only reason people took to marxism, socialism, and communism is because it promised better futures,
not because they liked the ideals.
you say that the government lies to us, and yes, it does.
governments always lie.
Even worker's paridises.
Ceo's work hard enough.
you need a good education to be a CEO.
That costs money.
One would gain money back by having a higher level position, and so, higher pay, than those who didn't get such an education and saved that money or never had it it begin with.
life's not fair.
it never is.
all people are equal, class is nothing.
you can come from having ten dollars to you name,
to being sucessful
it's the american dream.
My great, great grandfather came off the boat after the civil war and went on to get rich.
he was a "lower class"
class only exists if you think that other people are worse off than you, and can't help themselves out of their position.

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reddagger09-15-2003, 01:54 AM
communism promised a better life, this is true; this is also the philoshopy of communism. the ideals of commmunism IS that is promises a better life. if one is drawn to the promise of a better life, and support the policy which promises this life; then they are also in favor of the theory which drives the policy. also, you said "class is nothing"! I dont want to turn this into a name calling game but jesus man you are the stupidest person i have ever seen post! my god! class is everything it creates crime it is the motivator for all evil. havent you ever heard the saying: "money is the root of all evil. anyways, im gonna leave the rest of this for Komrade. Teach this dumb fuck to recognize Komrade.

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Anti-Hero09-15-2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by reddagger
communism promised a better life, this is true; this is also the philoshopy of communism. the ideals of commmunism IS that is promises a better life. if one is drawn to the promise of a better life, and support the policy which promises this life; then they are also in favor of the theory which drives the policy. also, you said "class is nothing"! I dont want to turn this into a name calling game but jesus man you are the stupidest person i have ever seen post! my god!
Only Promises. not actions. you make life better for yourself
class is nothing
desperation creates crime.
alienation creates crime.
not class.
I knew a kid who shoplifted for the thrill of it.
but crime is only what you don't get away with.
It's that you don't have to commit crime to make money.
you can learn a trade or go into the military.
or the coast gaurd.
or the police.
all require little money and are good paying jobs.

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Instigator09-15-2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by reddagger
communism is a process that takes a very long while to achieve. marx details this under the five stages in economic development, the last one being communism.

It is a very gradual process that must be executed carefully. I used to agree with you, Steve, until I learned more about Socialism and how it can't possibly be done all at once. The countries that tried to make it to the last stage (skipping the earlier stages) were incredibly unsuccessful (these countries include China, Russia, Cuba to some extent....although our embargo on them didn't help).

Only the most gullible and the most greedy believe shade when he argues that capitalism, through its incredible ability to create progress, will solve the very same environmental problems that it creates. We are not anywhere near close to being able to repair the damage that "free commerce" has done to the environment. Shade, can capitalism find a cure to capitalism?

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Anti-Hero09-15-2003, 02:10 AM
but most socialist countries (or whatever countries)
have the same industries as capitalist countries.
and the air quality in bejing is some of the worst in the world.
and the air is clear in maine.
Can capitalism find a cure to human nature?

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droogsteve09-15-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Instigator
Only the most gullible and the most greedy believe shade when he argues that capitalism, through its incredible ability to create progress, will solve the very same environmental problems that it creates. We are not anywhere near close to being able to repair the damage that "free commerce" has done to the environment. Shade, can capitalism find a cure to capitalism? So a socialist society won't damage the enviornment? They don't use paper or wood? They don't use cars of fossil fuels to heat their homes? They don't have any need for mineral mining? Since you already acknowledged the failure of the Soviet Union and China, I won't go on about the government-caused famines that killed millions or Chernobal.

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Instigator09-15-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by Anti-Hero
but most socialist countries (or whatever countries)
have the same industries as capitalist countries.

lol..........where do I begin.

Let me reiterate. The countries that have socialist policies, such as canada and some northern european countries have much more strict standards for protection of the environment than do the capitalist ones, since their corporations are less powerful.

and the air quality in bejing is some of the worst in the world.
and the air is clear in maine.

...how does that have to do with anything?
FACT: Beijing is not part of a socialist country, in fact the terrible air quality in places like that and mexico city are directly linked to the influx of industry in those areas.
FACT: Maine is one of the last places in our country with very clear air.
FACT: Maine is NOT an industrial center. Check out LA on a humid day and tell me what you think of the air.

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reddagger09-15-2003, 02:18 AM
under the current capatilist system people are encouraged to destroy the enviornment and exploit others. enviornmental disatsters are profitable. marilyn Warring a socialist feminist explains this as follows: if an oil tanker docks and unloads the oil the company makes X amount of money. but if it crashes then you get legal procesdings, cleanup, rebuilding the vessel, and a whole slew of other costs. these costs will generate an enormus sum of capital. therefore, thedisaster is profitable because our system sees value only in economic terms. she is completly right. only when we organize so that people can not profit from traged will enviornmental damange be reversed. so while socialist industries have the same industries, there is no motivation for them to polute, and there IS motivation for them to keep the enviornment health as it creates many jobs (which would be in abundance under a communist society)!

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krazykomrade09-15-2003, 02:33 AM
anti-hero:
Look, if you're going to use the "I know so and so who went from being dirt poor to being rich, isn't the system great? Hooray!" argument, then you have to accept that that goes both ways.
Per capita, more Americans live in poverty than anytime since 1959. In the past 25 years real wages for males (wages being money paid for labor rather than pushing paper or talking on the phone) has dropped 15%. In 1970 a average US new house cost twice the annual salary of a married couple even with only one working. Today an average US new house costs four times as much with most couples both working. Two billion people world wide live below the bread line in third world countries. 2 billion of the world's poor--a third of global population--who still rely on biomass for cooking and lack access to electricity. I hava nothing against your grandfather, in fact I applaud him for his work ethic, but you must realize that his case is VERY rare. For every "rags to riches" story, there are 100 "riches to rags" or better yet "rags to even shittier rags" stories. Whether you are a Capitalist, a communist, a fascist, an anarchist, or whatever, you must accept the reality that by and large, capitalism is failing.

Point #2:If everyone is paid the same wage than where is the incentive for the worker to produce more than he has to or even the quota amount?
Communism is based on being able to provide more than needed for everyone - and though in the US we could reach that level fairly quickly, it is still not there right now. This is why a transitionalperiod, which we often refer to as socialism is necessary.

Under socialism, the incentive to come up with more efficient ways to do things is that we'd have to work less time to do the same amount of work! The amount of NECESSARY labor needed to produce the things we NEED like food, housing, etc. would gradually decrease so that eventually we may only need to "work" for 2 hours a week or less! Of course as humans we would not be lazy and sit around - humans are curious, exploratory, and want to learn, invent, etc. Our "free" time would be spent creating ever better works of art, scientific research, cures for diseases,etc. After a period of time, the new generations will not even know what it was like under capitalism, and the productivity of labor will be tremendoulsy high.

Nowadays the incentive to work harder is "work so you can pay your rent, your mortgage, your interest on credit card and school loans, your over-priced food, healthcare, transportation, and entertainment, and so on or STARVE". THAT is the only incentive capitalism offers us! Why work more efficiently at work if you know you have to be there for 8 hours no matter what?

But in socialism and later communism, there will be no more chaos in the markets - the workers will plan what we need and then reinvest a portion to continually make even better things. EVERYONE will be "rich" so to speak - able to travel, to live comfortably, to eat what they wish, to continue their education throughout life.

What now bitch?

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droogsteve09-15-2003, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by Instigator
Let me reiterate. The countries that have socialist policies, such as canada and some northern european countries have much more strict standards for protection of the environment than do the capitalist ones, since their corporations are less powerful I agree that there should be greater protections. I'm not a big business Republican. I'm not even a Republican. I believe in the free market, but I also believe in corporate responsibility. If they are not responsible, then the government should MAKE THEM take responsibility. I believe that companies should pay their fair share of taxes, just like I do with my business. If I opened an "offshore office" in the Camen Islands, I'd wind up in handcuffs. I believe that the minimum wage is a joke and that everyone who works hard should at least earn enough to feed their kids. I believe that anyone who works should have health coverage, even if I have to pay a couple of bucks extra in taxes to allow the government to subsidize it. Don't bother pointing out that I'm talking about socialized medicine. I'm well aware of that. That's quite different from a socialist economy. Without economic incentives there is no progress. Almost all advances in science, technology and medicine are made by individuals doing research for private corporations in order to make a profit. I believe that healthy adults who DON'T work should recieve nothing. Not a fucking dime. Anyone who tries can find a job. It may not be a good job, or one that they like, but that's life. Someone has to do the shitty jobs. I believe that there are people who are poor through no fault of their own and people who are poor simply because they're lazy. The first group should be helped. The second group can starve for all I care.

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shade09-15-2003, 02:50 AM
Only the most gullible and the most greedy believe shade when he argues that capitalism, through its incredible ability to create progress, will solve the very same environmental problems that it creates.
How the hell does getting what you are due kill the environment? Please explain this to me. Oh by the way, the most break thrus in solar technology have been done by Sharp, an evil corporation.

Shade, can capitalism find a cure to capitalism?
Why would you want to?

there are other motivations to work hard, like enjoying your work and the benefits that encompass it.
Thats why you choose your career in the free USA. I like computers, therefore I am working on my masters degree in Business Computer Information Systems. I will enjoy my job, and be paid well for my professional skill set. Why dont you do the same instead of bitch and moan?

FACT: Maine is one of the last places in our country with very clear air.
Lets name off some areas with the worst air shall we? LA/most of CA (democrats), Dallas (democrats), Houston (democrats), you want to add anything?

under the current capatilist system people are encouraged to destroy the enviornment and exploit others.
I must have missed that in my business classes. In fact, we learn many business models and tricks to make businesses low impact, such as solar panels on the roofs of your buildings, water filtration before expulsion, air recycling, etc. In fact, if your product's price is the same as a comparable one however people know you dont pollute, they are more likely to buy your product, and therefore you actually are profiting more from being enviromentally friendly. Solar power etc is cheaper than buying electricity from a power company. It goes on and on.

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MrHardy09-15-2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by krazykomrade
Per capita, more Americans live in poverty than anytime since 1959.
No -CLICK (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty01/pov01cht.gif)
Can you give some kind of proof for any of the other statistics?

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reddagger09-15-2003, 02:55 AM
take it a step further. socialized programs like h. care and housing. but you fail to adress the economic concers that Marx talks about. there is no way to create these wonderful services in the current system as it is not in the capatilists interests. we have to re-invent the way value is seen in this society and how that life is something to be valued, even if it generates little capital. you also dont look at the fundamental philoshopy the marx uses which is: there is no "lazynss" in a communist society, motivation can be based on more than fear. people can want to work because they enjoy there jobs and because they are greatful for the benefits they have. also many research studies done on the subject point out that people would be working less than one day a week because the work force is orginized much more effectively. and as taylorism points out, the less time workers spend on the job, the happier they are, the more effectivlly they work. hench frances plans a few years back to switch to the four day work week.

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Instigator09-15-2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by droogsteve
If they are not responsible, then the government should MAKE THEM take responsibility.

Exactly. That's the idea of socialism. Socialism is partly based on the all too obvious idea that companies cannot regulate themselves.

I believe that companies should pay their fair share of taxes, just like I do with my business. If I opened an "offshore office" in the Camen Islands, I'd wind up in handcuffs. I believe that the minimum wage is a joke and that everyone who works hard should at least earn enough to feed their kids. I believe that anyone who works should have health coverage, even if I have to pay a couple of bucks extra in taxes to allow the government to subsidize it. Don't bother pointing out that I'm talking about socialized medicine. I'm well aware of that. That's quite different from a socialist economy.

Actually, no it's not. In a socialist economy, there is still an incentive to work that's not far from the capitalist motive. If you work hard in a socialist economy, you will reap those benefits. They will not be "stolen" by someone less deserving (a capitalist's BIGGEST fear).

Anyone who thinks socialism would destroy that incentive should read this:

"If everyone is paid the same wage than where is the incentive for the worker to produce more than he has to or even the quota amount?"

Lenin explains in the "State and Revolution", and Marx explains in"Critique of the Gotha Program", it is impossible to jump straight from capitalism to the most advanced stage of human society - a classless society based on the democratic administration of things in the interests of all. Communism is based on being able to provide more than needed for everyone - and though in the US we could reach that level fairly quickly, it is still not there right now. This is why a transitionalperiod, which we often refer to as socialism is necessary.

During this time there will still be elements of the old society (some market economy, some armed forces until the whole world is in the deomcratic hands of theworkers, etc.) But already things will be moving rapidly towards the complete dissolution of the state, of the market economy and so on. Once the workers begin to democratically all plan the BIG industries - the ones which dominate our lives - energy, banking, agriculture, pharmaceuticals, etc., then we will be putting the surplus produced by the workers towards improving our lives.

New technology and greater productivity of labor will lead to a decrease in the working day, to more time for study, travel, exploration, research, music, art, culture, etc. Nowadays the incentive to work harder is "work so you can pay your rent, your mortgage, your interest on credit card and school loans, your over-priced food, healthcare, transportation, and entertainment, and so on or STARVE". THAT is the only incentive capitalism offers us! Why work more efficiently at work if you know you have to be there for 8 hours no matter what?

Under socialism, the incentive to come up with more efficient ways to do things is that we'd have to work less time to do the same amount of work! The amount of NECESSARY labor needed to produce the things we NEED like food, housing, etc. would gradually decrease so that eventually we may only need to "work" for 2 hours a week or less! Of course as humans we would not be lazy and sit around - humans are curious, exploratory, and want to learn, invent, etc. Our "free" time would be spent creating ever better works of art, scientific research, cures for diseases, etc. After a period of time, the new generations will not even know what it was like under capitalism, and the productivity of labor will be tremendoulsy high. The barrier between "work" and raw human exploration and mastery over its environment (in harmony with the environment!) will disappear also - no more coercive state, police, etc. No more chaos in the markets - the workers will plan what we need and then reinvest a portion to continually make even better things. EVERYONE will be "rich" so to speak - able to travel, to live comfortably, to eat what they wish, to continue their education throughout life.

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droogsteve09-15-2003, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by reddagger
we have to re-invent the way value is seen in this society and how that life is something to be valued, even if it generates little capital. you also dont look at the fundamental philoshopy the marx uses which is: there is no "lazynss" in a communist society, motivation can be based on more than fear. people can want to work because they enjoy there jobs and because they are greatful for the benefits they have. Spoken like a true intellectual who has never done a hard days work in his life. Who is going to "enjoy" cleaning shit out of pipes in a sewer treatment plant. Who is going to be "grateful for the benefits" they recieve from tarring a highway when it's 100 degrees out? How do you "re-invent the way value is seen"? Re-education camps? Group therapy? Another wonderful fairy tale from Mr Marx.

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reddagger09-15-2003, 03:18 AM
droog you need to read more before you call marx a fairy tale. reinventing starts with socialism. i.e. welfare, socialized healthcare, low income housing. once these things are inacted one can see how people would be happy to collectivize. socialism is designed to meet the needs of the people. capatilism is dewsigned to take advantage of the people in the name of the rich. how dare you accuse anyone of "not working a say in there life" you republican fuck. anyone who has worked a hard days work would be in favor of massive social change so they can revcieve better benefits. i lived in az and i would go talk to the imagrants sho would dig treched for 8 $ an hour in the 120 degree heat. you try telling them that the government shouldnt help them and theyll never get any help moving up. under socialism they wouldnt have to worry about h. care or housing. there kids would have food, and they could all go to collage to advance in society.

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droogsteve09-15-2003, 03:35 AM
First of all, I'm not a Republican. I've tried to keep this discussion civil, and if you wish to continue to do so, knock off the "Republican fuck" bullshit. Secondly, none of the people that I know, all of whom have worked hard their entire lives, myself included, are in favor of the massive social change that you talk about. We still believe that if you're smart and work hard, you'll do OK. And although you're obviously sincere and have good intentions, talking to hardworking immigrants hardly makes you part of the working class. I might also point out that they no doubt immigrated to America because they knew that they could make a better life for themselves here than they could anywhere else.

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reddagger09-15-2003, 03:40 AM
the fact of the matter is that people can work hard all their lives and not get anywhere in this country. without a college degree its hard to make enough money to support a family of 3, 4, 5, whatever number! The more services that are provided to the people the better, simple as that. helping people is good. so if people need to be taxed more and military spending has to be cut, so be it. end of story.

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shade09-15-2003, 05:03 AM
capatilism is dewsigned to take advantage of the people in the name of the rich.
Capitalism is designed so that people get what they work for. Under capitalism you take home a paycheck representative of how much society values your work, to your house that you chose to get with what you had, to your family of the size you chose, in the car that you like.

In socialism you go home for work with what the government determines your work to be worth, to the housing that they provide wherever or how small that may be, to your family that is limited to 1 child to reduce our impact on the environment, in the mini cooper government issue car that you drive.

the fact of the matter is that people can work hard all their lives and not get anywhere in this country. without a college degree its hard to make enough money to support a family of 3, 4, 5, whatever number!
So? Then get a college degree! Cant afford it? Get a fucking government grant. There are two reasons to not go to college these days. One being you are stupid, the other being you fuck off all day and party instead of study. If we cut off immigration from mexico, the jobs that dont require a college degree would pay more. Its called a labor market for a reason. Labor like anything else is valued based on supply and demand. If immigrants werent willing to be janitors for $5 an hour, the going wage for that job would be higher. Then maybe irresponsible slackers like yourself could be a janitor for $15 an hour instead.

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Instigator09-15-2003, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by shade
Capitalism is designed so that people get what they work for.

More like, capitalism is designed so that people are given certain weapons and must fight other people in the battleground that we call our society in order to make a living. If you don't have a weapon,

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