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What can Americans do to help end the war and save the world?

#46 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 11:02 AM

I just don't understand how you cannot have healthcare. It's the basis of a civilised nation. That being said, our government is trying to abolish it.
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#47 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 01:11 PM

Yeah, health care.

I still say any American willing to leave home because the Democrats lost should consider his priorites. More good can come from moving to the swing states, and from winning the next election. Just so long as you're not creating new swing states. Move out of the uncontested South, make your votes count in the states where your vote might actually make a difference.

And yeah, health care.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 02 December 2004 - 01:57 PM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#48 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Dec 2 2004, 06:54 AM)
Civilian, I know we havn't always gotten along and there have been times when I thought you were wrong... but this is one case where I really hope you're wrong...

Just remember when the thought police show up its better to kill yourself quickly and take as many of them with you as possible than to go quietely.



Oh come on Hoff. We get along fine. You're overreacting to me calling you out for calling me a fascist. (yes you did - and no, not here ... want to keep up the debate do it in the thread where it happened) That's as far as I remember ever disagreeing with you, which is a lot different from "not getting along." Jeepers. I disagree with my closest friends time and time again. And my friends and I get along just fine.


-------------------------


Anyway, the funny thing is, noone has seen bin Laden since before 9/11, Bush declared he was the culprit mere days after the event, but it was never proven(Clinton had blamed bin Laden for Oklahoma before all that annoying evidence turned up). Then the US invaded Afghanistan, and a few people mentioned how noone had ever claimed responsibility, and no links to Afghanistan (but plenty to Egypt and Saudi Arabia) could be drawn. So in a little while, a tape showed up, which when translated showed bin Laden confessing to the crime and suggesting his motives.

"Grr, Argh," said the American people. He has no beef with us, he just hates freedom! Well, that and a cup of coffee somehow got us into Iraq. More bin Laden tapes surfaced, and somewhere along the way Saddam Hussein and all of his Weapons of Mass Destruction were rounded up, and all was good with the world.

Now, wait. the war is nearly over. Hence = more tapes from bin Laden.


Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.

------------------

I know, just a thought, but remember that we have seen the US start two invasions based on lies. And Orwell didn't pull 1984 out of his ass; he was parodying the sort of real world politics at play in Eastern Europe. Did the US fake the whole Jessica Lynch "rescue?" Well, the BBC thought so, but what do they know? A lot of the world figures it was exaggerated at least, but who cares?

I could be wrong; bin Laden could be alive and is the real voice on those tapes. There could be a genuine internatinal terrorist conspiracy, and given their limited successes they could be the world terror equivalent of the Keystone Cops. But think about this: let's say I KNEW otherwise, and let's say I had PROOF, like the images and statements revealed in the Jesica Lynch documentary, ironically corroborated by her own "I can't remember anything" testimony? Let's say I had convincing evidence the Bush administration had lied every step of the way the past five years, to feather its own nest, or at least to profit select organizations?

Would anyone believe me? Would it change anything?


The thought police will never catch me. Because I'm fucking innocent.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#49 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 06:43 PM

Civilian- I'm sorry if that's how you took it but I'm glad you didn't take any lasting offense since none was meant. I'm digging this theory, especially since you might recall that the ministry of love was happy to crash rockets into the streets of London and the populace simply assumed it was Eurasia.

I'm just glad we havnt started to observe the two minute hate. Then again, have you watched FOX news lately it does come close. And the Jessica Lynch thing was a total scam, I feel for her a lot because she did what was absolutely right and disproved Bush's propaghanda, especially that crap he put up about how the Iraqis raped her. Which of course is pretty similiar to white fears in the forties about blacks stealing and raping all the white women. "Them savages, we let them drink at the same water fountain as us next thing ya know they'll be in Bobby Sue's droors!" That sounds very similiar to "Them towel heads, we let them live and the next thing ya know they'll be in Jessica Lynch's droors!" I think the message there is just a little something to invigorate our soldiers when they're tired from a long day of attaching electrodes to genitalia.

Yeah good point there's not much one can really do, even joining the brotherhood seems to be a bad move. However I imagine any war ever fought would bear a resemblance to 1984, aside from maybe Vietnam and WW1(As far as Russia is concerned at least) People didn't trust their governments in these wars and moved to stop them, but other than that its the same formula: dehumanize the enemy, forget any past agression by allies, make up false agression from enemies. Kinda depressing really...

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#50 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 08:51 PM

Civ- Aye... I've often wondered about the legitimacy of events. First of all (on the subject of Iraq), I do have proof. There were no WMDs - which most sane people in the US who were against the war knew would be the result anyway. Secondly, there have been numerous criticisms of 9/11 and the reports about it that violate what the government says happened. But how can we decide what a legitimate theory is and what's wild speculation? Obviously, only 49% (depending on voter fraud and reasons for voting for Bush, take 10% or give 5) of our population cared, and that's not quite enough to do anything around here.

I hope for the sake of the world that you're wrong, and I can say with at least some certainty that we are over-exagerating. Sure, anti-war media is repressed, the president and his cabinet are especially well versed in the ironies of Doublespeak, but look at this way: They didn't plant any WMDs when they didn't find any. If we have a Ministry of Truth, I'm sure it's filled with people in an income bracket that is still waiting for Trickle-Down Economics to kick in for them.

JM - Depressing, yes, but that's humanity for you. Overall we seem to be a bunch of sheep blissfully and blindfully following whoever holds the crook regardless of where he's leading us.

Civ again- The Keystone Kops thing is hilarious! I can just see a bunch of sterotypically dressed Arabic terrorists skidding around a corner with one foot out and attempting to hit civilians with pies but missing. Hehe. Oh brain, you crack me up! I wish I could do Flash, that would make an awesome cartoon.
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#51 User is offline   WalrusOfPlastic Icon

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 12:55 AM

I'm wondering if it would be worse if the Bush regime had the power and inteligence to plant weapons of mass destruction, which would be a ridiculous enough idea that all acusations would be lumped together with all kinds of conspiracy theories, or the Bush regime being twisted enough to lie about the existance of said WMDs and instead of planting them fool the public into accepting that war is acceptable without cause at all.
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#52 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 10:51 AM

Yeah, planting is a bit absurd. It would be far easier just to say that they found them when they didn't. But they didn't do that either, they just started pretending that it wasn't the real issue, even though that was the entire justification for the war.

And the only people who were fooled into accepting a war without real cause were the fools. Sadly, that's half of our population.

On a side note, there was a History Channel special on last night about the tyranny and torture commited under Hussein's regime. Apparently, he was an asshole, in case you didn't already know. I was just happy that people haven't started omitting Rappin' Ronnie Reagan's involvement. Those crazy Cold War bastards and their domino theories... How long has it been since we haven't had some vague sort of "oppression" to do battle with for the sake of "freedom"?
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#53 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 01:15 PM

At least they didn't plant them when there were none! Of course not! That's the sort of thing any idiot would have seen through.

Consider this: You don't like chocolate, so you never eat it. You've been hoarding your chocolate ration all year. At the end of the year, the government announces that the chocolate ration of 75 grams per person per week has been met.

Bad idea: you can actually verify this against your own ration of chocolate.

Much easier to destroy the old records of the published chocolate ration, and to claim that the ration had been 60 grams per week per person all year. This way anyone with all that chocolate sitting around can pile it up and say "what an efficient government! They met their chocolate projections down to the last gram!"

etc.

Bush can come right out and say "The war wasn't about WMD, but trust me thay had the capacity to make them. That's not why we were there, of course, 9/11 God Bless America we will not be cowed hey look over there!" And will people buy it? I can say with perfect hindsight that yes, they did.

-civ (awaits the bullet in the brain, loves Big Brother)

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 04 December 2004 - 02:28 AM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#54 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 03:53 PM

But he's still letting us go around contradicting us. And you know they always assimilate you before they kill you. Although I guess you could say we're discredited because they start throwing around negative buzzwords like "liberal" to make the sheep happy...
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#55 User is offline   WalrusOfPlastic Icon

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:09 AM

That's just point I was attempting to make Civilian, only you've said it much clearer. I think it scares me more that the government was able to fool the American people into accepting the war in the absence of WMD's than if they had planted them.

It's a tremendous (and terrifying) display of the power a small (in comparison) group of individuals holds over the varitable ocean of American people.

In light of this, though I understand that it was neccisary (what with the battle for the lesser evil and all that), the pro-voting campaigns that took place around me this election year really irritated me. Primarily those signs that stated something along the lines of "Vote. It's your one way to make some change." I mean we've seen the power this government has over the majority of Americans. The people don't decide things. The government decides what it wants the people to think and then they propagate until the people think it. It's kind of like a dictatorship that cannot be overthrown. I mean who overthroughs a democracy right? The people have their say right? So what's to overthrough?

And so I am mostly hopless. "What can Americans do?" Nothing. Not unless we could form a propagating force more powerful than the U.S. government. And it would be quite a feet to form anything greater than the worlds primary world power. And even then we'd have only swung the opinions of the people with emotion and it wouldn't be permanent. There isn't enough time to convince every individual to think for themselves.
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#56 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:54 AM

Civilian- That is a damn fine nad logical point. I believe Orwell and Zach De La Rocha both put it along the lines of "Who controls the past now controls the future, who controls the present now controls the past."

They dont need to change things in the present and make material changes, they can just alter the past as they see fit. How many Americans read now anyhow there's no need to burn books just horde them in dusty old warehouses that noone knows of that go by the moniker "libraries"

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#57 User is offline   Creaux Icon

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:53 PM

"The Conspiracy Song"
By the Dead Milkmen

Please let me tell you
They own our homes, they own our banks
We take out loans to buy them tanks
They own our children, they own our pets
The owned Elvis and Bernhard Goetz
They own our rugs and our flower pots
There ain't nothin' they haven't got
They own the papers and the TV's
The water works, record companies

Let me remind you
They own the talk shows
They make the rules
They own Geraldo and Donahue
They own the state, they own the church
They pick the winners on Star Search
They own the Christians, they own the Jews
They own the Moslems, Mormons, too
They put the holes in our socks
They put that snake in my mail box

From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli
We are all tools of the conspiracy
From the littlest baby to the biggest V.I.P.
We are all tools of the conspiracy

Run to the window, they're coming to get you
Hide in the basement, they're coming to get you
Flee to the rooftop, they're coming to get you
Don't go outside, no don't let them get you

Someone should tell you,
They own the CIA and the IRS
They tell us where to shop and how to dress
They own the workers, they own the boss
They know what's in the secret sauce
They own the drugs, they own the narcs
We all know they own Dick Clark
They own it all, they own everything
They write the songs that make the whole world sing
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#58 User is offline   Hannibal Icon

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 08:06 PM

What can Americans do?

go see National Treasure, go get yourself a Prozac prescription, donate $100 to the war effort, go out to your garage(if you have one), close the garage door, then turn on your car, turn on the Radio...find one of the following AM Radio shows and tune in: Rush Limaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, O'Reilly, or something similar, sit back relax, inhale the fumes, and pop some Prozac.

Watch your life flash before your eyes.

Then as you take your last breath, sing the National Anthem(or say the Pledge of Allegiance, and make your you mention "ONE nation under GOD.")

As you die and take the final trip to Hell, think of nothing but Brittany Spears.

Have fun kiddies.
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities."
~ Voltaire (1694-1778)


Enjoy this Tribute to Nazism...(Mp3)
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#59 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 09:39 PM

If I'm going to pull of a nihilistic ending, I'm taking as many of the bastards down as I can. The hell with not making any noise so as not to disturb the sheep. I'll let the entire world know how pissed I am and how I'm not going to take it. It's a mighty good thing I'm not violent.

Edit: Actually, I think refusing to give into a society that is bent on anihilation of the self in favor of self-interest and greed of the very few and taking your own life instead should be viewed as a noble act and when you get to heaven you don't get negative karmic points for it. Granted, the mass murder that you participated in before then would make them frown at you up there...

This post has been edited by Slade: 06 December 2004 - 09:59 PM

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 11:23 AM

If you'd really like to be offended, check this out: http://www.sfgate.co...MNGPBA8DPH1.DTL

And some information control:
http://abcnews.go.co...Story?id=310844
If you don't like the news, don't let people find out about it!

Nothing new, really... And I'd like to cry for the state of the world, but I've run dry.
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