[Jordan]

I read what hannibal wrote down. It sounded smart due to the elegant delivery. I'm not too sure what the main point was because I'm part idiot.

I was wondering if Both Hannibal and JM could put down in point form- The main problems with the USA, Your solution, Possible errors in your solution, and finally a conclusion stating everything above in fewer words.

I for one have no real grounded political opinion. I see health care going to shit in Vancouver (the one big bonus of being Canadian). Stupid bastard Liberal government here stopping industrial growth and at the same time promoting reisdential.

I've for voted Liberal, NDP, and Reform(conservatives). Conservatives are my new party since they have not had majority in a long time, and the liberal/NDP have really done nothing at all other than squander our budget.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 22 November 2004 - 03:34 AM

[J m HofMarN]

I really don't see a need to. I think we're all intelligent enough here to pretty much identify the problems that exist in the US, and I've found that those who don't live here actually know more about what this country's like than those that do live here (with the exception of most of the people on this forum and the other intelligent folk in the nation)

For the most part though I'm a bit of a pessimist about the current American regime. I'm relatively certain that during the next depression things are going to get bad enough to necessitate a revolution and that, hopefully without too much bloodshed, the current form of government can be overthrown and something better put in its place. I've been to a great many marches and such and voted every election since I could but nothing really seems to help, ergo the existance of this thread.

[Slade]

The people and power are going to fight to the death to keep that power if a revolution happens. Or rather, they will have other people fight for them while remaining safely in undisclosed locations.

But really, every government descends into tyranny eventually. Or it's overtaken by a government that decides it wants more space.

Hannibal - I'm going to pretend you were being as sarcastic as JM's remark obviously was, and remind you that denial is not a drug. Heroin is a drug. Fexophenedrine is a drug. Don't you start getting metephorical on us! I'm on to you!

[Jordan]

"government can be overthrown and something better put in its place."

How do you over throw a government? What about the army? Chances are they will side with their commanders- The power will be transfered to the military, not the people. I suggest your read the book "RVBICON" with a V not at U. in 500 pages or so it outlines the rise and fall of rome. ANd how it jumped from senate to emporer.

The most interesting character is that of a dude name Sulla. He marched on rome with a little coup etat (sp?). He became emporer of rome. This man had total power. he conducted many reforms in the senate and did alot of in house cleansing. And then one day he gave it back to the senate, just prior to his death I think.

If you overthrew the government. The military would step up and over throw you. And then they may or may not reinstall the old system.

Also, If the US government was actually in threat of being ousted, the rest of the world would probably take that chance to attack. Maybe that's just paranoia speaking.

[J m HofMarN]

"How do you over throw a government?"

I don't know mate. Noone's ever done it before, I guess I'll be the first.

"If you overthrew the government. The military would step up and over throw you. And then they may or may not reinstall the old system."

I had never in my wildest dreams predicted that the ruling class would use the military against someone who tried to overthrow them. I had thus far failed to even consider this as an issue. I'm glad you pointed it out cuz I'd have looked really silly walking into the whitehouse and declaring the overthrow of the government only to have the military surprise me by shooting my crazy ass.

"Also, If the US government was actually in threat of being ousted, the rest of the world would probably take that chance to attack. Maybe that's just paranoia speaking."

Ok Jordan. The US government being overthrown is a different scenario than a teenagers parents leaving the house. I think the rest of the world would behave just fine without us. I'm assuming the scenario you're suggesting sounds sort of like this:

Jean Cretien: Hello? Is this Gerhard Shroeder?

Gerhard Shroeder: Ya.

Jean Cretien: The US is being overthrown. Want to go invade?

Gerhard Shroeder: I'll get Dookie. -He hangs up and then redials-

Gerhard Shroeder: YO DOOKIE!

Prime minister Dookie: WAAAZZUUUUUP!?

Gerhard Shroeder: Invadin' the US, havin' a bud.

Prime minister Dookie: True, true.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 25 November 2004 - 05:32 AM

[Slade]

Hehe! JM, I so miss those commercials. Even though I alienate people and kill puppies every time I yell "WASSSSAAAAAP?!?!?" to people.

Yeah, I'd be afraid, were I to overthrow a government, that the government would start an immediate and ruthless propaganda campaign against my faction to convince all of the sheep that we were the bad guys. Once the government had the support of the people, if could just march the military in and shoot everybody it wanted to. The goernment might be able to get a police state out of the deal, if it plays it's cards right.

Shouldn't we be branded terrorists and have our Constitutional rights illegally stripped from us just for mentioning stuff like this on a forum, even though I'd much rather rule a small South American or Eastern Eurpoean country than the US?

[WalrusOfPlastic]

I don't know mate. Noone's ever done it before, I guess I'll be the first.

What about Russia? See, all you need is the military on your side. That shouldn't be so hard.*

*sarcasm, sarcasm!

[J m HofMarN]

Yeah, I'd be afraid, were I to overthrow a government, that the government would start an immediate and ruthless propaganda campaign against my faction to convince all of the sheep that we were the bad guys. Once the government had the support of the people, if could just march the military in and shoot everybody it wanted to. The goernment might be able to get a police state out of the deal, if it plays it's cards right.

I was, of course, being sarcastic. Most revolutions are violent and the military of the old regime must be neutralized to overthrow it. Cuba, the US, Russia, France, Mexico, all of South America, etc. It's generally understood that the ruling class will ruthlessly repress a revolution and that's where the great weapon of the workers - guerilla warfare mixed with economic sabotage - comes into play. The non-combatant workers of the revolution (the unions and politcal parties affiliated with the rebels) can raise funds and also organize protests to disrupt the oppressive entity. Meanwhile the vanguard of the revolution fights in the rural mountain and forest areas, striking randomly and moving quickly, using captured supplies and goods given by locals to subsist. If any of you are interested in participating in an eventual revolution I would highly reccomend Guerilla Warfare by Che Guevara which is available online at the communist party's website.

"Shouldn't we be branded terrorists and have our Constitutional rights illegally stripped from us just for mentioning stuff like this on a forum, even though I'd much rather rule a small South American or Eastern Eurpoean country than the US?"

I know the laws on this quite well. Sedition is punishable by death and "giving comfort or support to our enemies" is considered treason- also punishable by death. I've always been careful to either avoid outright statements about these two things or make them in private. I don't necessarily advocate the overthrow of the current regime, I'm just stating that as a historical precident it is inevitable. There's a lot of things the government can kill you for, even though the constitution gives us all the right to overthrow the government they'll still murder U.S. citizens for trying. The powerful will go to any lengths of cruelty to cling to power.

They could put us on trial for this and it's entirely likely that Echelon project monitors this forum. I know L&E got in trouble for mentioning the words "ki ll the presi dent" so don't think they're not watching. The computers at Echelon facilities around the world (I believe there are some in New Zealand, the Caribbean and other locations) scan for certain phrases and record them. Afterwards intelligence officers try to sift through them but there's generally so much that they can't look into it all. That's why the plotting of the 9/11 hijackings went undetected. Well, that and Qaida was wise to the methods of the government and they tend to use couriers and radios and use phones infrequently.

What about Russia? See, all you need is the military on your side. That shouldn't be so hard.*

Actually the Russian revolution, which was horrendously complicated, was not begun by Lenin but by a crowd of freezing and starving St. Petersburg residents. They were outside the winter palace or some other government building and the Czar, being a compassionate fellow, ordered them all shot. The soldiers considered between slaughtering innocents and obeying a jack ass who barely paid them enough to live. They made a wise choice and very soon the mutiny had spread to the navy as the battleship Aurora turned her guns on the winter palace. If only the national guard at Kent State had been so goodly.

[WalrusOfPlastic]

Actually the Russian revolution, which was horrendously complicated, was not begun by Lenin but by a crowd of freezing and starving St. Petersburg residents. They were outside the winter palace or some other government building and the Czar, being a compassionate fellow, ordered them all shot. The soldiers considered between slaughtering innocents and obeying a jack ass who barely paid them enough to live. They made a wise choice and very soon the mutiny had spread to the navy as the battleship Aurora turned her guns on the winter palace. If only the national guard at Kent State had been so goodly.

True. But in the end they did gain the support of the military and without that the government really had no chance. I mean they not only neutralized the armed forces, the armed forces up and nearly started the whole thing which is why that revolution was succesful whereas the first didn't go over as well.

Anyway, point is, say one wanted to start a revolution (which, for the sake of homeland security, one would never do) the only way to accomplish it would be to first find a reasonable solution to the problem of the military, which is easier said then done and not even that easy to say. I for one have not a single clue as to how to deal with an insanely powerful military, impossible to overthrow by force who are notoriously more blindly patriotic than the government itself. In fact the last thing I'd want is the military taking control of the government. That'd suck even more. So what would one hypothetically do about them?

[J m HofMarN]

Anyway, point is, say one wanted to start a revolution (which, for the sake of homeland security, one would never do)

Of course, I'd never want to overthrow the government. Hooray for genocide and oppression! Four more wars! wink wink, nod nod, say no more say no more

So what would one hypothetically do about them?

Hypothetically the military must be defeated to install a new regime. They must be beaten or made to join the revolutionary cause. The first hypothetical step in overthrowing the hypothetically tyranical US government would be the failing of US democracy. Guevara teaches us that even while the appearance of democracy is maintained a revolution cannot be fully successful and peaceful means should be used up first. So let's say that president Gorge U Bust were to declare martial law and suspend elections, or to commit electoral fraud to gain more time in office.

At this point opposition groups would form, both in rural and urban areas, likely among the working classes who are poor enough to be disenfranchised but still have just enough that they have hope for more. Now at first it would be protest and radical groups. The communist party, black bloc, labor unions and various other groups. Anti war groups usually have no impact on overthrowing goverinments due to their message of peace.

Now eventually the government escalation will force the groups to move from protests to organizing strikes and disruptive activity. Some of the groups (Such as the weathermen in the sixties or the SLA) will begin acts of so-called terrorism such as bombings against government buildings, fighting with police, etc. The government will soon outlaw all protest groups or otherwise crack down on them, likely using extreme violence. At this point the groups will go underground (as many did in the sixties) and begin a process of radicalization. They will allie and get together. Peaceful leaders and those who lack leadership abilities will fade away to make way for radicals who are willing to lead the people to freedom.

They may start out with an organized campaign of "terrorist" attacks, always against government targets. The government will generally react with more brutality. The people will see the hypocracy in the government's stance and in their hearts begin to support the revolutionaries. At this point Guerilla warfare will initiate. The rebels will select a target. Either a symbol of oppression (the bastille) or a strategic target packed iwth arms and other supplies (the moncada barracks in Cuba) will be chosen. The rebels will assail this target and, god willing, triumph.

At this point the government will be in a fury. They will randomly imprison and bomb civilians, causing more sympathy for the freedom fighters. (this is the current phase of revolutionary operations in Iraq. The end of that conflict is near.) They will also send out troops to attack the freedom fighters. The rebels will hide in Urban areas or in highly impassable rural ones. The government's fighting force is neutralized there. Tanks cannot pass mountain gullys or penetrate thick woods. A thousand man force is null in one to one fighting within a city. The goal of guerilla warfare is to even the field. The rebels stage hit and run attacks and take their supplies from the oppressive forces. Eventually after a certain number of these attacks the government will cease to enter rebel areas (also seen in Iraq)

Now the true mettle of the guerilla liberators is tested. When an area comes under they control they must defend the populace but also initiate agrarian reform, create schools and hospitals and such. This is the time for the rebels to show the people that tehy are the true representative of the oppressed. War crimes trials for captured enemy personnel or collaborators will also help. After liberating a base the rebels will begin to gain international sympathy, local and (perhaps) foreign aid, and of course more press. Other associates of the rebels may start up cells in other government oppressed areas.

At this point the government will lash out furiously and the workers will respond with strikes and sabotage. The rebels by now are bolstered by defectors from the oppressive government and recruits from the working class. It is now time for the final phase. They will now be able to strike bigger and bigger government troop bodies. They'll likely be able to capture tanks artillery and aircraft. Now the guerilla fighters can begin operating as a traditional army. The advantage is they have the support of the people and the government is fighting a many-fronted war. Once this point is reached the guerilla army will soon triumph. The will of the people cannot be denied.

[Hannibal]

And don't forget the effectiveness of silly star wars parodies which really hurt your enemies and really make your voice heard. I mean if only the Iraqis had the sense to waste their time writing immature fictional stories about the guy down the street, they could really get things done. If they only had the priveledge of having a computer and internet access, they'd have their country back in no time. Lets hear it for Hoffie, revolutionary expert in guerilla warfare and master of silly and adolescent revenge. Shit, if only Hoffie could start this kind of revolution in America, he'd have this country turned around in seconds after a few clicks and a silly parody of George Bush. Even though we know George Bush is just one of my secret agents, and I control the world. Hoffie, should I give you my address so you can bring your AK47 over to my house and shoot me? Or are you all talk and no action...no...maybe you should carry on with your childish writing skills, its better you've chosen an anonymous enemy with no real power to direct your rebellion at then something truly important. Good luck with the ending.

[Hannibal]

Trustafarians
by Stuart Egan





Trust fund using, gucci wearing, latest mobile owning, £4-a-pint paying, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire winning, polo playing, landowning, fox hunting, palmtop tapping, Prada buying, convertible driving, met bar dwelling, titanic dining, zara phillips shagging, oxbridge studying, eton buggering, goa patronising, infomedia working, kensington townhouse / notting hill flat renting, face reading, hugh grant adoring, tepee owning, regatta boating, pimms drinking, groucho going, bbc newsreading, dj dating, Tate Modern straddling, architecture debating, yacht purchasing, lottery winning, Phil Collins listening, servant beating, ping pong ball in mouth talking, inbred family planning, royal loving, croquet on the lawn playing, silver spoon grabbing, non working, range rover in town driving, black tie dinner attending, Nigella Lawson style dinner party throwing, fur coat wearing, Klosters ski holidaying, racehorse owning, kenya safariing, Dodi dating, rifle shooting, pheasant murdering, Stringfellows clubbing, Evian bathing, pittance taxpaying, conglomerate running, capitalism felching, back stabbing, ooh doesn't the ambassador have wonderful fucking chocolates at his parties stating, Tory voting, Mail / Telegraph / Times reading, Thatcher loving, corgi breeding, chandelier swinging, coke sniffing, opera and ballet attending, hypocritically churchgoing, bidet arse washing, Manchester Bastard United supporting, £10 bottle of wine chugging, Jeffrey Archer reading, Nasty Nick's book buying, normal people shafting, vespa riding, spin doctoring, Albarn dating, Tara Palmer Tompkinson co-ligging, utter, utter scumfucks. Yes, you! Fuck off!



i would add:

Che Guevera t-shirt wearing, hypocritical, elitist, capaccino sucking, bmw driving, coffee house notebooking, phoney poetry readin, Ginsberg woshipping, 60s daydreaming, neofascist rune worshipping, george lucas kowtowing, racist, arrogant, DSL priveledged, armchair guerilla warfare spouting, videogame playing, consumerist, massage parlor, new age idiocy bantering, phoney, lying, thought controlling, pre-empting, immature game-playing anarchy symbol sporting idiots...

...and don't even get me started on the fucking republicans...

[J m HofMarN]

"lottery winning,"

What?

"george lucas kowtowing"

Is that even a word?

capaccino sucking

You insulted my taste in coffee. That sure showed me the error of my ways.

DSL priveledged

Yes, clearly anyone who has DSL is evil, or something...

videogame playing

Good job, you've insulted every person on this forum.

consumerist

Yes, I suppose you grow all your food at home and craft your own car and computer parts out of clay...

thought controlling

Quick! Put on your tin foil helmet!

massage parlor

Curses, you revealed my secret identity. And here I was hoping noone would realize that I was actually a massage parlor posing as an author.

Hannibal I think what you fail to notice is you're not worthy of being my enemy, you're barely even worthy of the ridicule everyone heaps on you except when the laughter we get from it is factored in. I havn't sent any assassins to kill you so please keep your posts combined in one insanity thread and leave the others alone.

[Just your average movie goer]

Hannibal - tool who annoys everyone and who nobody likes

[J m HofMarN]

Hannibal, do you even remember what this thread is about? The objective was not to provide me with material for a hillarious signature...