[J m HofMarN]

What the devil kind of medal is JarJar wearing there? I hope he hasnt turned into a rapper.

[Madam Corvax]

Aaah, so that's Jimmy Smits, then (No, I haven't watched any NYPD episodes, so I would not know him)

I don't want Anakin turning to the Dark Side because Padme cheats on him or can't be with him, that's not how I see it.

No, I do not think it would have been good idea, either. But a love triangle can work in many different ways. You see, Eowyn cannot be with Aragorn, but she does not turn into dark side.

[Helena]

I didn't actually mean that rejection by Padme in itself should be what turns Anakin to the Dark Side, just that it would help fuel his general angst and disappointment with his life, and encourage him to give in to his darker feelings. As I've said many times before, Anakin's transformation should be gradual and subtle - having any one event suddenly turn him into a raving psychopath, as Lucas does in AotC, is both lazy and ridiculous. Don't you think some of the other Jedi might have noticed that he's now 500% Dark Side?

[Despondent]

Obviously you've forgotten their force feelings are clouded


just kidding. as for the gradual and subtleties, that's why Lucas brought young skywalker (now doesn't that sound better than young anikan, also known as "annie,") in as a child. Can you imagine how silly Annie would appear, pod racing as the redneck farmboy teenager? That's why he's years younger which represents the years of transformation we Don't see. See?
and What's to say he's not the only human in the race? I sense predjudice here.

Lucas has certainly inspired former fans to have dark feelings.

[njamilla]

Anakin's transformation should be gradual and subtle - having any one event suddenly turn him into a raving psychopath, as Lucas does in AotC, is both lazy and ridiculous.

There are many things that happen in which gradual and subtle is the result of a transformation: a caterpillar into a butterfly, the growth of a child into adulthood, etc. But often transformations happen in catacylsmic events which alter the reality in a quick, fell, swoop.

In education, people have the general idea that learning takes place in gradual and subtle ways. You teach letters, then words, then sentences, and then paragraphs. It makes sense, especially from an organizational point of view in which a teacher wants to be complete in his/her instruction. But often those actual learning moments are cataclysmic steps in the personal discovery which aren't predicated on the curriculum but on the development of the child. Suddenly the child understands happiness isn't just a smile on a person's face, or the absence of anger. It's a feeling of goodness that people have that can be expressed with a smile, but in other ways like singing a tune.

In the case of Anakin, he's exposed to a system of personal instruction. He's exposed to training which will prepare a person for his service as a Jedi. But if Anakin has issues with authority, he may or may not manifest any visible signs of this until some terrible event brings it out -- it bubbles until the lid blows off. The anger lurks inside of Luke until an event like the death of his mother makes him snap. So despite all the personal instruction by Obi-Wan, the outward signs that he's learning the Jedi code, and his general demeanor, it's possible that nothing would have truly told Obi-Wan what would make him snap. And even when Obi-Wan does see indications of "bad behavior" and tries to pull guide him away from such a negative path (the dark side), it's very hard to predict what will push him over the edge. So I think it's reasonable that Anakin could go through a personal traumatic upheaval that pushes him over the edge.

This post has been edited by njamilla: 21 November 2004 - 05:47 AM

[jariten]

As I've said many times before, Anakin's transformation should be gradual and subtle - having any one event suddenly turn him into a raving psychopath, as Lucas does in AotC, is both lazy and ridiculous.

you make it sound like he turned to the darkside because he forgot to take a library book back. Lucas' 'lazyness' is in fact the result of careful development of Anakins attachment to his mother, which took place over the course of TPM and a large chunk of AotC.

and what about the parellels to Luke, who almost takes the same path as Anakin, through exactly the same channel (love for, and desire to protect Leia) when he snaps and nearly takes Vader apart?

[Helena]

In the case of Anakin, he's exposed to a system of personal instruction. He's exposed to training which will prepare a person for his service as a Jedi. But if Anakin has issues with authority, he may or may not manifest any visible signs of this until some terrible event brings it out -- it bubbles until the lid blows off. The anger lurks inside of Luke until an event like the death of his mother makes him snap. So despite all the personal instruction by Obi-Wan, the outward signs that he's learning the Jedi code, and his general demeanor, it's possible that nothing would have truly told Obi-Wan what would make him snap. And even when Obi-Wan does see indications of "bad behavior" and tries to pull guide him away from such a negative path (the dark side), it's very hard to predict what will push him over the edge. So I think it's reasonable that Anakin could go through a personal traumatic upheaval that pushes him over the edge.

No way. Sorry, but no way does even a traumatic event like the death of a relative turn a supposedly good person straight into a psychopathic mass murderer. Either he was like that all along, or it happened gradually.

you make it sound like he turned to the darkside because he forgot to take a library book back. Lucas' 'lazyness' is in fact the result of careful development of Anakins attachment to his mother, which took place over the course of TPM and a large chunk of AotC.

OK, I am fed up to the back teeth of hearing this crap about 'careful development'. Anakin does not go through 'careful development' or indeed any kind of real development at all. His character arc is as follows: a) Cutesy, goody-goody little kid. Whinging, immature teenage brat. c) Wild-eyed psychotic serial killer. d) Vader. At no point do we get any real sense of how he turned from one stage to the next - no, not even after his mother's death. Striking out at a Sand Person in a moment of blind rage and killing them would be one thing; cold-bloodly murdering women and children is quite another.

and what about the parellels to Luke, who almost takes the same path as Anakin, through exactly the same channel (love for, and desire to protect Leia) when he snaps and nearly takes Vader apart?

Whatever the superficial similarities of plot, there is no comparison between them. Luke, despite being somewhat naive and occasionally whiny, is a sympathetic character who does his best to follow the teachings of the Jedi. Anakin, by contrast, is a horrible, arrogant, bitchy and dangerously obsessive little overgrown thirteen-year-old who lacks any kind of self-control and self-discipline. He should never have been let near the Jedi, let alone set up as some kind of 'Chosen One'.

When Luke fights Vader, he has only been a Jedi for a few weeks and yet he still manages to control his anger and reject the Dark Side. Anakin in AotC has been a Jedi for ten years, yet he not only snaps and kills the murderers of his mother (whom he happily abandoned in slavery for the past decade, I should point out) but goes on to unleash indiscriminate slaughter on a whole village. There is no 'parallel' between them whatsoever. If there had been a real parallel it might have been interesting - say we saw Anakin struggling against his anger, finally giving in to it and striking down one Sand Person, then being horrified at what he had done. But Lucas's insistence on the 'sledgehammer' approach to Anakin's character development destroys any sense of realism and makes it utterly impossible to sympathise with him.

[jariten]

so you dont think that Lucas spent a significant amount of time showing both A/ Anakins attachment to his mother and B/ his bottled up anger and frustration?

At no point do we get any real sense of how he turned from one stage to the next - no, not even after his mother's death.

1. has power but feels its potential is not being exploited/developed fully

2. wishes Obi would give him more freedom

3. arrives too late to save his mother

4. feels that, with more power, with the power he should have already had. he could have saved her

5. in the garage scene, hes lost his head and breaks down, but in the midst of this, he blames Obi for holding him back.

6. decides he wants more power, so that something like this will not happen again, so that he can keep the things he loves

"i promise you, I wont fail again"

7. the dark side offers him that power...which is where Episode 3 comes in.

He should never have been let near the Jedi, let alone set up as some kind of 'Chosen One'.

starting his training too late with a master who didnt really want him in the first place. he has "exceptional skills" as well as arrogance, which Obi finds hard to control. but arnt these 'rebels who break the rules' type characters a staple of action/adventure stories? and are you really suggesting that there is NO warm, compassionate, human side to Anakin at all?

There is no 'parallel' between them whatsoever

again i maintain that although the situations were different, the emotion that came out was exactly the same. what restrained Luke was the presense of his father, Anakin had nothing like that to keep the anger in check. but what happened to them is the same, and the did it for the same reasons.

plus you were saying before how anakin snapping like that was lazy. yet couldnt this quote of yours easily describe Luke?

having any one event suddenly turn him into a raving psychopath

[Lord Aquaman]

I agree.

Han & Leia also had the advantage of better actors who actually had chemistry (Harrison Ford & Carrie Fisher), a better story and a better director in Irvin Kershner.

There were times when Anakin kind of came across as a sex starved rapist lunatic. That didn't really work in his favor.

I have a confession to make - watching Episode 2, I came away feeling more desire for the young version of Aunt Beru than for Padme.

[azerty]

Okay, so what's your opinion of Obi Wan cutting one alien in half and cutting off the arm of another in the cantina? And this, remember, was only because the dude with a face like a monkeys bum pushed Luke to the floor! Obi Wan has a touch of the psycho killer in him too.

[Hannibal]

George Lucas said he was going to use this album in Episode III with an Admiral Ackbar lookalike dancing and prancing around like Madonna.

[Despondent]

Funny. Of course Madonna was 6 months prior to her first hit, "Lucky Star," when Jedi was released. (Breakdancing was on the rise however)

Meco also had the little known ESB medley I used to spin in college. Thanks for the memory.

[Helena]

so you dont think that Lucas spent a significant amount of time showing both A/ Anakins attachment to his mother and B/ his bottled up anger and frustration?.

No, as a matter of fact, I don't. OK, so we saw in TPM that Anakin loves his mummy - but he kind of spoils it by happily wandering off with Qui-Gon and completely forgetting about her for the next ten years. As for his 'bottled-up anger and frustration' the only evidence we see of that is a couple of kiddie temper tantrums and whinging sessions which are forgotten five minutes later. At no point whatsoever does it appear that he has any genuine grievances with Obi-Wan -certainly not the kind of thing that would overflow into a sudden burst of psychotic rage!

1. has power but feels its potential is not being exploited/developed fully

2. wishes Obi would give him more freedom

3. arrives too late to save his mother

4. feels that, with more power, with the power he should have already had. he could have saved her

5. in the garage scene, hes lost his head and breaks down, but in the midst of this, he blames Obi for holding him back.

6. decides he wants more power, so that something like this will not happen again, so that he can keep the things he loves

"i promise you, I wont fail again"

7. the dark side offers him that power...which is where Episode 3 comes in.

Look, I know what the explanation is supposed to be but this still doesn't change the fact that it's completely unrealistic and over the top! Everyones's had teachers who pissed them off, and everyone's had times where they got unreasonably angry over trivial things, but normal people eventually calm down and learn to cope with these things - it's known as 'growing up'. Normal people don't bottle up these minor annoyances until they explode into murderous violence! If Anakin allows this to happen, it's simply another example of what a dangerously unstable person he was to start with. In real life people like that end up in jail or secure psychiatric units, which is precisely where Anakin would be if anyone around him had a modicum of sense.

As for the 'it's all Obi-Wan's fault' idea, I'm simply not buying it. Anakin's mother was seconds away from death when he found her - exactly what could he have done to save her even if he had had more training? Does he believe Jedi have the power to raise the dead or something? There's never any indication in the rest of the series that the Jedi are able to save the lives of mortally-wounded people; Obi-Wan doesn't complain that he could have saved Qui-Gon if only he hadn't been 'held back'. Anakin's ranting about how he'll learn to 'stop people from dying' comes across as precisely what it is - not 'determination' but a terrifying arrogance and lack of maturity (not to mention sanity).

starting his training too late with a master who didnt really want him in the first place. he has "exceptional skills" as well as arrogance, which Obi finds hard to control. but arnt these 'rebels who break the rules' type characters a staple of action/adventure stories? and are you really suggesting that there is NO warm, compassionate, human side to Anakin at all?

What are these 'exceptional skills'? Apart from being exceptionally whingy, childish, obsessive and violent, what other 'exceptional' qualities does he demonstrate in AotC? He's not particularly intelligent and we never see much evidence of his skill in fighting, piloting starships or use of the Force. Given the skills he actually shows as opposed to what he tells us about himself, I'm not surprised that Obi-Wan chooses to 'hold him back'.

As for being a 'rebel', this is certainly a staple of action movies, but what Lucas seems to have forgotten is that such characters are supposed to be sympathetic as well as rebellious. 'Breaking the rules' is not enough - I knew people in school who were 'rebels who broke the rules' and they were some of the most immature and annoying people I've ever known. Han Solo was a rebel, but he was likeable as well; Anakin is just a bratty teenager with absolutely no sympathetic qualities. Chefelf's AotC list perfectly expresses what I think about him:

Reason #24
Anakin the Jerk
Anakin goes from being this little sweetheart in The Phantom Menace to being a complete asshole in Attack of the Clones. He's whiny, creepy, annoying, rude and arrogant. He also throws temper tantrums at two or three points in the movie. What happened to him? He was a pretty well adjusted kid and you would figure that under the guidance of the Jedi he would become even more stable. Instead he turned into a total doofus. He creeps out Amidala by just staring at her like a creepy stalker and when she says, "Please don't look at me like that," he responds by saying, "Sorry," but also displaying a sinister grin and continuing to stare at her! What kind of fool would do this and what's more is why would she be at all attracted to someone like this? There's absolutely no reason why she would fall in love with someone like this. Return of the Jedi works so hard at making the evil Darth Vader into a likeable character despite the things that he has done. This movie comes along and makes the viewer hate Anakin just because he's a total jerk. A huge hole is left in the plot as to why he became this way that just leaves us asking, "Why did Anakin become such a dickhead?"

again i maintain that although the situations were different, the emotion that came out was exactly the same. what restrained Luke was the presense of his father, Anakin had nothing like that to keep the anger in check. but what happened to them is the same, and the did it for the same reasons.

plus you were saying before how anakin snapping like that was lazy. yet couldnt this quote of yours easily describe Luke?

What do you mean 'the presence of his father was what restrained him'? His father was trying to turn him to the Dark Side! Anakin had no more excuse for his behaviour than Luke - less excuse in fact, because as I pointed out, he had far more training and should bloody well have learned to control himself by then!

And no, the situation with Luke is not the same. Firstly, Luke didn't turn to the Dark Side. Secondly, even if he had done, he certainly wouldn't have immediately run around slaughtering everyone in the vicinity! Momentarily losing control of himself would not turn him into a cold-blooded psychopath capable of committing mass murder - it might start him down that path, but it wouldn't happen immediately. What I'm complaining with Anakin is that we see it happen within the space of five seconds!

Honestly, jariten, you really need to play Knights of the Old Republic - not only is it a great game, but it could teach George Lucas a hell of a lot about coherent plotting, plausible characterisation and good dialogue. If you want to see how to do a troubled Jedi seething with suppressed rage, look at the character of Juhani; if you want to see a well-meaning but somewhat arrogant Padawan struggling with doubts and frustration, look at Bastila. Both characters are a hundred times more sympathetic than Anakin - mainly because they come across as flawed yet likeable adults, rather than overgrown children. And unlike Anakin, their development throughout the game is believable and realistic.

Anyway, this is my last word on the subject. We've discussed this time and time again and I'm getting tired of going through the same arguments. I wish you would take my advice and play KOTOR - it may not change your mind, but at least you might get some understanding of why many of us find the Prequels such a disappointment in comparison.

[jariten]

i wish i could play it, but i dont have the means to.

yeah this is going to go on forever, so instead of doing another huge post argueing my half again i'll just stop.

actually i'll just say that i do agree with you and chefelf to a small extent, i think the whining in Anakin was intentional because, wait a sec...

ok ive found it. this is a quote from UK magazine SFX the Ep2 special edition issue. this is what Hayden had to say about anakin

It wasnt so much about making it my own...as it was trying to make an extension of what we already knew of the character, so you could have that linear sense of this kid growing up. I tried to take some of the sensibilities of Jake Lloyds performance- naivete, rambunctiousness and immaturity- that are key to Anakins downfall as well. Its that immaturity that leads to overconfidance and helps him ignore his master...you never want him to come across as a complete brat, but he also needs to have this overconfidance that he can become the most powerful jedi ever

[Helena]

It wasnt so much about making it my own...as it was trying to make an extension of what we already knew of the character, so you could have that linear sense of this kid growing up. I tried to take some of the sensibilities of Jake Lloyds performance- naivete, rambunctiousness and immaturity- that are key to Anakins downfall as well. Its that immaturity that leads to overconfidance and helps him ignore his master...you never want him to come across as a complete brat, but he also needs to have this overconfidance that he can become the most powerful jedi ever

Yeah, just one problem with that: He does come across as a complete brat. Whether this is more due to Lucas's script or Hayden's acting, I'm not sure.