[Chefelf]

This was going to be a post in njamilla's Asian Jedi topic but it drifted off topic so I figured I'd post it here instead.

In reading Will Brooker's Using the Force (which mentions our friend, njamilla and his contributions to the Star Wars fan community) I found the chapter on fan fiction (particularly slash fiction) interesting.

Personally I see no use for sexuality in Star Wars. The "romance" of Han and Leia is the only sexuality that is really even explored in the original trilogy (apart from Luke mentioning that Leia is beautiful a few times in the original movie). Han and Leia's 2-3 kisses in ESB and ROTJ don't represent an actual romance so much as the idea of a romance; it's just an implication that romance is present. You know what? I don't care.

As genfic and slash fiction will do, they explore sexuality between characters in much greater detail. I find the whole thing kinda creepy. I don't want to read lengthy explanations of heterosexual or homosexual sex between various Star Wars Characters. I think the romance between Anakin and Padme -- while admittedly not graphic -- was a bit overboard. Han and Leia's romance was developed in the context of the story. Anakin and Padme go off to a resort location to roll around in meadows and look at waterfalls together. They actually take off on a romantic holiday! Han and Leia had to find time to be romantic in the midst of escaping the Empire.

This is one of the greater failures of AOTC. That movie is, by a long shot, the longest of the SW movies so far. Therefore there would be plenty of room to have the two develop a romance in the context of a story. Instead Lucas opted to have the story take a break to view the two lovebirds lying in the grass together and giggling like idiots.

Moving back to fan fiction: The reason I am not that interested in it is that almost all fan fiction that I've read seem to revolve entirely around sex. I really have no interest in reading about Padme Amidala performing oral sex on Anakin Skywalker and more than I have interest in the homo-erotic love affair between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn. Romance in Star Wars, in my humble opinion, is best left with implications and nothing more. I don't really feel the Star Wars story hinges on its inclusion.

I consider it similar to most of the EU books that have come out, and here is why:

At the end of a giant epic story (i.e. Star Wars, The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, etc.) there is an ending where the conflicts of the story are resolved. What so many storytellers/filmmakers seem to forget (whether it be intentionally or not) is that the story AFTER that conflict doesn't necessarily need to be told. We all can assume that Han and Leia had sex. We can assume they had children. We can assume that the New Republic went on and had some troubles with Imperial fragment forces. We can assume that Luke set up to train some new Jedi. So what? This is boring stuff. The battle between good and evil has occurred and finished. I don't care to go into the details of how Lando Calrissian went on to manage a Tibanna Gas-mining facility in the outer rim and that he likes to drink strong Huttese coffee in the morning when he goes over his daily reports.

We can, as fans, make assumptions that these things have happened after the movies have ended just as easily as we can assume that Princess Leia and Han Solo more than likely engaged in some lurid sex acts as is their prerogative as a happy couple in love. However, I don't want to hear about it. If I want graphic sex I'll use the Internet to visit some porn sites any more than I'd visit those porn sites expecting to find modern mythology.

[HK 47]

Come on Chef, not even a few steaming Twileks doing the wild thing?
Seriously though, did anyone actually want to see sex in Star Wars? Why? Light-hearted romance is the way to go. And as for the love story in AotC, you forgot the riding large Noobian pigs part...

[Laura]

Back in the day, before there was a PT, George Lucas said he used kissing as a stand in for sex; not that you're supposed to read it as kissing=sex, but that it was built up and made a big deal out of because it was like, the end-all, be-all of romantic exp​ression. (You'll notice Leia and Han only kiss two or three times, ever.) I think in a mythical story, that's sufficient. It's symbolic. So I agree that sex really has no place in the SW universe.

Anakin and Padme have children together, but that's no reason not to gloss over the sex. I don't know how they're going to handle it. I wouldn't even imply sex. People who think that the SW universe needs to work the same way as ours does and people need to have sex with each other to have babies can believe that it happened at some point, but the door should also be left open for people who don't want to think about sexuality in connection with SW. People who think a symbolic kiss is enough.

Speaking of Anakin and Padme, their "romance" is so creepy, not just because the characters have no chemistry, but because it's so forced. As Chefelf pointed out, Han and Leia's romance evolved naturally while other things were going on. You see why they fell in love; during disastrous times, they saw value in each other that they would not have seen if circumstances had been normal. Why are Anakin and Padme in love? Because they're in love. Circular argument.

If anything happened that caused them to like each other, we didn't see it. We see Anakin hitting creepily on Padme, but we don't see why she reciprocates, or why he even likes her other than that she's hot.

And more often than not, we see them fighting or Padme being freaked out by Anakin as a heavy-handed hint that he's going to turn evil. It all ties back into the spectacular failure of the writers to establish Anakin as a sympathetic character. If he was nice and turned evil, we'd be upset, but all we see is him being evil. If Anakin and Padme were happy together and that soured, we'd be upset, but all we see is their relationship in trouble. After all their creepy interactions, their wedding wasn't a surprise--it was telecasted so obviously that it couldn't be--but it was certainly inexplicable.

[Chefelf]

That's it, exactly. It's as if Lucas realized, "Oh shit, I have to have them fall in love, I suppose." Then he just moves the characters aside, puts them in a bubble and makes it happen in the most lifeless way possible. Even something as hackneyed as having Padme be capture by evildoers and having Anakin rescue her and then kiss would have been better than that!

Certainly people fall in love with others for stupid reasons and Padme would certainly not be the first woman in history to fall in love with an asshole, however, there is NOTHING that would indicate either of them would like the other. Anakin seemingly only finds Padme to be hot. Padme, being the intelligent strong woman she's supposed to be, should find him repulsive... since he is.

[Hannibal]

Perhaps Lucas is suggesting that intelligent strong women fall for repulsive guys. (Or that they like younger men because its all about power for them, and thus the result is a worse than worse situation...) Naaaaa....i think Lucas is just insane.

Personally, the sexuality in Star Wars is demented enough when you think about it. The real question is, do we really want to know why a 9 year old kid is obsessed with a 15 year old and so much so that he gets her later on in life. Luke and Liea are seriously the result of a dysfunctional family to say the least. On top of that, the whole brother-sister thing, the Han/Chewie relationship, and lets not even bring up R2D2 and C3P0...Lucas, you are off you're rocker.

[njamilla]

Early talk and speculation just after TPM was that perhaps Anakin and Obi-Wan and Padme were going to be a love triangle. We all know that didn't happen, even though GL once laughed when someone in an interview mentioned love triangles. His laugh struck me as a kind of school boy laugh, as if he expected other people to suddenly read a love triangle situation between the three. I even have a poster post-TPM with Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme in a vertical triptych.

The idea of a fight between the three, Obi-Wan and Anakin (mentor and student) vying for Padme's love was reminiscent of the Han-Luke-Leia love triangle. And wouldn't it be over the top that the clone wars erupted over the petty squabblings over a prize. It would be the Iliad in space.

Instead, Lucas concentrated more on the Sith and found some ancillary connection to Boba Fett.

I guess Spielberg (the uber-romantic) probably would have focused on on that triangle.


BTW, Brooker asked me about slash fiction and he had to explain it to me because I'd never heard of it. One of my (I wrote it) favorite SW short stories involves the love affair between an Imperial fighter ace and a member of an Alderaan aristocracy. You can find it here: Fulgor Viridis. (Scrool down to NP Jamilla. Don't know how it found its way to a Russian website.)

[Paladin]

Personally speaking, I'm not good at romance at all. Not the least bit. But even I found the 'romance' in episode II to be stupid. I used to be a bit like Anakin before, but I NEVER showed that 'side' of me to anyone else other than my parents. I have lots of friends, guys and girls alike, and every last one of them think I'm a perfect gentleman. That being said, why the hell would Anakin, in all his stupidity, would actually make someone fall in love with him. I left the movie theater with a grudge against him, not a liking.

[Madam Corvax]

I think I have already mentioned in one of the threads, that what we should be seeing in PT is the love triangle between Bail Organa, Anakin and Padme. Why not use the winning formula? We should have a bad guy, a good guy and the girl sort of torn in between them. I OT we had the bad guy turn good, so the girl’s choice was somehow justified, so perhaps it was entirely unnecessary to have the good guy turn out to be the girl’s brother, but that’s another story.

In PT we should have things more interesting, because the bad guy actually turns even more bad and good guy displays generosity and kindness by rising the daughter of his former love interest and his rival. That story had so much potential that I was actually looking forward to it. It still is to me the only logical thing to do plot-wise, and I cannot think why on earth Lucas did not implement it.

Anakin in ATC is plain creepy, emotionally unstable and not particularly bright. I cannot imagine a serious woman falling for him. For a charming rouge like Han – yes.

[Helena]

My idea was that Padme would fall in love with Anakin, but accept some kind of arranged marriage with Bail Organa for political reasons, thus helping to start Anakin down the dark path with her 'betrayal'. Regardless, just about anything would have been better than the 'romance' we saw in AotC. I'm right there with you, MC: how the hell could any woman find Anakin attractive? If I ever met anyone like him in real life I'd be seeking police protection, not cavorting around with him in meadows.

[civilian_number_two]

You gals are both right on the money. I really like MC's idea about the love triangle, if only that it would introduce Bail Organa in a central role and maybe make something of this whole "you served my father in the Clone Wars" bizness.

Of course, I can't imagine any continuity between these interesting ideas and what I know of TPM.

[Madam Corvax]

Rest assured, there isn't any continuity between this and AOTC. It is just my wishful thinking. This is how I always imagined it would be, or similar, just like Helena sugegsted it. It is just so very sad it never will be this way, because no way Episode III can mend it. Now with the trailer that I saw, anyway.

[Vwing]

MC also brought up a really good point about Leia and Han. She had already fallen for him, Luke was out of the picture, there was almost no showing of true love between the two in the 2 movies. So why was it even necessary to make Luke and Leia siblings? The love triangle was resolved in ESB, she loved Han, and that was it. There wasn't even discussion of anything else. That shows one of 2 things. That Lucas listened to stupid fans who thought there was a love triangle, panicked, and came up with the sibling thing as a quick fix, or it shows that he really had intended them to be siblings during ESB. But it's just very strange, watching the movies, that people felt there was a love triangle. Hell, from the moment Han says "Do you ever think a princess and a guy like me...?" you know she ends up with him.

But I don't like the idea of a love triangle in the prequels. I don't want Anakin turning to the Dark Side because Padme cheats on him or can't be with him, that's not how I see it. I think the storyling with Anakin's mother could have been used very well. And the thing is, it could have even been used well in AOTC.

In TPM, there is foreshadowing, blatant foreshadowing, that Anakin will return to Tatooine and will free the slaves. Maybe he could have done this without permission from the Jedi Council, but he appeals to Palpatine who agrees that it is not moral that there should be slavery and who helps him, turning Anakin away from the council and developing his relationship with Palpatine. He gets there, frees the slaves (after all, there is no slavery in ANH), but he cannot save his mother, who dies. All this would have happened after he marries Padme, and that would have no impact on his gradual turn. It is, however, the straw that breaks the camel's back when she is killed in the Clone Wars. He blames Obi-Wan, who he feels could have saved Padme, fights Obi-Wan, gives himself fully to the Dark Side, becomes Darth Vader, falls into the lava, starts exterminating the Jedi, and we go into Episode IV. That I think is what Lucas should have done, and considering TPM, it's amazing to me that he didn't even follow his own guidelines for the next movie.

Also, in order for me to try to get the maximum enjoyment of Episode III possible, because I do want to enjoy it, I'm just going to go in with my own preconceived notions of things. As far as I'm concerned, Anakin and Padme had a great relationship in Episode II, Anakin has been gradually seduced by Palpatine, and he is on the brink of turning to the Dark Side. I will also go in to it keeping in mind that Bail Organa is morally against what is going on, giving him my own little introduction. So then, when Lucas completely ignores Episode II's premises as he did Episode I (such as with midichlorians and the prophecy), I'll be able to enjoy Episode III much more. Unless it sucks in its own right. Which is very, very possible.

[azerty]

I don't know if this is a weakness in the prequels or the weakness of my own head, but which guy is Bail Organa? Is he ever referred to by name or anything in either movie, or are you just supposed to know which guy he is?

As for the love triangle (Obi Wan, Anakin and Padme) People were talking about that 24 years ago. Even to the point of having Obi wan be Lukes old man, and Vader only thinking that he was the father. Of course all the names hadn't been invented yet.

Attack of the clones would have been improved (slightly)(maybe) if Obi wan and Anakin had switched positions in the story. Anakin could have showed his stuff fighting Fett, and Obi wan goes off to protect Padme. Padme could have had the hots for Obi Wan, but Obi Wan is too cool to take any notice. Later Obi wan shows up on Planet Bug to rescue Anakin with Padme in tow. Anakin would have been pissed off and jealous. Actually everybody should have been pissed off - Anakin is pissed at Obi wan for perceived transgressions, Padme is pissed at Obi wan for ignoring her, Obi wan is pissed at Anakin for being a dick. Lovely...

And now that I think about what I just wrote, it would mean that when Vader hires Fett later, you'd have to wonder if Fett knew who his boss really was. Also it would explain why Boba the bad ass was such a shitty shot on Bespin when he fired at Luke. He just wanted to screw up Vader's plans by warning Luke what was up. It would also be more believable that the slouching sleazy Anakin would have known that dodgy cook in the diner who was the weapons expert. When he comes out with that information about the dart, Obi Wan could have wondered out loud why Anakin was hanging around in diners with (supposedly) ex-criminals when he should have been meditating on the Force. As an aside, Anakin would have been the one who was offered the dark side by Dooku on Bug Planet and refused it.

[Vwing]

I don't know if this is a weakness in the prequels or the weakness of my own head, but which guy is Bail Organa? Is he ever referred to by name or anything in either movie, or are you just supposed to know which guy he is?

Weakness of the prequels. Amazingly, he never is referred to by name, and he is arguably one of the more important characters of the prequels. He is played by Jimmy Smits, has about 2 lines and 3 minutes of screen time, and at the end, when they show the new republic fleet with the Imperial March playing in the background, he's standing next to Palpatine, and he puts his head down in shame. It is horrible that he has not been alotted more screen time, however.

[Despondent]

which guy is Bail Organa?

The guy in the magnificent outfit. The Human guy, let me specify. (JJ is looking kinda spiffy his self, 'tho. )



look again. JJ is POSING.