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For military reasons and for reasons of style

#1 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 05:26 AM

You may have guessed, gentle reader, from the title, this is my objection to the prequel trilogy for military reasons and for reasons of style.

In the original trilogy the Empire had a thriving military. They had their Star Destroyers, which as we have seen, could land vast detachments of troops combined with heavy armour/ artillery machinery. The destroyers also housed TIE fighters for dealing with smaller targets than the big guns of the capital warship.
They kept the peace and maintained order in a nasty way by having a whole lot of people with guns stand around. They had the resources to commit their warships to a systematic search of the galaxy for the rebels - and when they focused their resources, such as Darth Vader's squadron of warships and the massive armada, they had a heckload of firepower.

But in the prequel trilogy the republic HAD NO MILITARY. None whatsoever.
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah. Not a sausage. Diddly squat. The military might of the average alaskan salmon.

We assume that the republic was defended by the Jedi - a semi-religious organisation of wise warriors - each of which had it in them to save the galaxy. They were not soldiers, nor were they keepers of the peace - but they were heroes. Each and every one of them had the vision and foresight to sense danger to the galaxy, and the power to repel it. But a band of heroes, even a few thousand heroes does not provide the defenses the republic needs.

Also, in the original Star Wars, General Tagge insulted Vaders 'sad devotion to that ancient religion' - implying that the Jedi were not within living memory particularly important. Why would the jedi become unimportant - because they were superseded by the military.

The Republic requires a military. To guard supply convoys, to enforce the law, to every now and then repel armies. Even Buddhist nations have militaries - so even pacifists recognise the necessity of a defense force and civil service.

The republic especially needs a military if a two-bit agglomeration of merchant navies can put together enough freighters-made-warships and battle droids to blockade a planet and seize control of their leaders. Because as much as people respect the pairing of master-and-apprentice of Jedi coming to negotiate with you for a peaceful solution they respect it a lot more if they have a few gunships standing by in case a peaceful solution cannot be reached. Had Qui-gon Jinn came aboard a star cruiser instead of an unarmed transport they might not have tried to poision him at the first opportunity. But the situation escalates beyond their control and it ends up a bit weird. The jedi take the kidnapped leader home to Coruscant, along with a nine-year-old boy (Why? why didn't you take his mother instead - then she could have come to coruscant and changed her name by deed poll)
And then they go back with no more force than they left with. They don't even stop to pick up another jedi or two LET ALONE a contingent of troops. The republic it seems is so incompetent that the brave local fighter pilots hold off the Trade Federation Navy while a band of aliens armed with shields and radioactive rocks is there to repel the army.

The trade federations droid army.
The army of droids.
Why, I ask you, are they droids?

The Empire used humans - because a human can walk easier, fight harder, respond to a dangerous situation differently than they respond to a walk in the park, and humans are not affected by the electronic battlefield. Droids are - as the radioactive rocks prove. Why wouldn't the Trade Federation hire juniors at casual rates, teach them how to march, shoot, sleep, shit like the great U-nited States Soldier, stick a gun in their hand and see what radioactive rocks do to them beyond pissing them off rather than going to the expense of purchasing the droid army which falls asleep when you hit the remote control, giving a much more literal and direct form of "take out the leaders and the fight will go out of them".

I'll tell you why: cause they suck.

A greasy mob of merchants bought an army - why doesn't the republic have one, which would be seen as a particular necessity as it is possible to BUY off-the-rack machine armies. Simply find a factory that makes battle droids, and buy some battle droids. If everyone can buy armies - WHY THE HECK DOESN'T THE GOVERNMENT HAVE ONE!

I'll tell you why: cuase they suck.

Then it turns out that owing to a senator from the planet that got blockaded, the kind of person with personal experience of the kind of shite that happens when the government has no backup to sent to its members when a group of non-PC bad businessmen grab a planet by the balls, decides to oppose the Military Creation Act - and then, leaves her incompetent bumbling fool alien friend to go on her head and preach to the senate about giving Chancellor Palpatine - the man in charge of the Military Creation Act - emergency powers which he uses to form the army of the republic. The army of the republic happens quite quickly - as several hundred thousand clones have been made of a man called Jango Fett, and the cloners who from their miserable ocean planet that also makes posion darts have gone to the trouble to equip the clone army with assault shuttles, capital warships, armour and artillery. This seems strange - the Kamino are described as cloners, not as mass manufacturers of weapons of war. The only alternative explanation is that the Repiblic had the assault shuttles, the carrier-cruisers and so on in a garage somewhere - but why have all the trappings of a military without a military itself.


These are then delivered to the republic where they land on a miserable planet called Geonosis to squish another army that has been put together by the stupid trade federation and their friends - the brilliantly named techno union. The army squishes them with impunity, with as much effort as a man adjusting his jocks - but the army was supposed to be greater than any in the galaxy! And the first installment of a clone army owned them on the battlefield despite the home-ground advantage going to the stupid driods. If the crapdroids - I mean battle droids got that badly owned by the first wave of the clone army I'd hate to see the second-greatest army in the galaxy.

Why have such a crappy droid army promoted as the best army in the galaxy, one that could potentially conquer it?

Why? I'll tell you why. Cause they suck.

But why was the army there? It was there to back up the Jedi army. The Jedi Army. The Army of Jedi. This is probably the single most disgusting thing imaginable to do the Star Wars story. The Jedi are commited en masse like cannon fodder. Jedi do not do this. They may well work in the partnership of two Jedi side-by-side, but they do not make armies. Ever. Let George Lucas cower like a weeny mongrel dog if ever I catch him for pouring Jedi into an arena. Even if the Jedi were commited to the battle as an army - why did any single one of them die? One Jedi could have held off all the droid infantry Count Dooku threw into the arena. Without ever being hurt once. If a single potential Jedi was of such importance that the Emperor and Darth Vader discussed him as the main course while dismissing the entire Rebel Fleet as no more than the palate cleanser then you get the idea that Jedi are kind of important. The giant Jedi army should have swept the droids before them and caught up with Count Dooku before he had time to nod to his cronies that the droids were going to take care of things.

But anyway the Jedi are backed up by the clones, led by Yoda, a proposition not unreasonable - Obi-Wan Kenobi is described in the original trilogy as General Kenobi, which gave me the notion that Jedi may have led armies or served as military advisers before. He leads the clone army and commands them with his poor grammar. The moment the Clone army appears, the full droid army is launched to defend the ships. The moment anyone in charge looks at the red radar table and sees the situation, they all run away. The Clone Army then squishes the droid army. But why did the army and the jedi arrive separately - obviously because Yoda went to Kamino separately to Mace Windu leading the Jedi to Geonosis. But why weren't the Jedi surprised that the clone army arrived. Not just arriving so quickly, but arriving at all - they could not have known that Yoda would find an add-milk-and-stir army with batteries included to come to their aid, but they react to it as though they knew it was coming, and Mace Windu shows not the least bit of surprise when he is assigned a group of commando units.

So, the nineteenth century tactics of the droids - put a large enough body of men out there with no air support is completely wasted by the at least Vietnam war tactics of the clones, with their clever assault shuttles and air-deployed tanks.

That's right - Vietnam War.

The assault shuttles are like american helicopter gunships. They are not like Star Wars kind of gear - but instead they are helicopter gunships. Why?

I'll tell you why. Cause they suck.

And the soldiers arrived in ships mysteriously star destroyer-ish and looked pretty much like stormtroopers.

Obviously they are intended to look stylistically related so we can see that this army provides the basis for the empire.

But - the red baron flew a plane that looked fairly primitive, these days we fly F-117 Nighthawks and F-22 raptors. These look more impressive.
We call this progress.

You would expect, if the clone carriers and clone soldiers were the basis of the star destroyers and storm troopers they would look stylistically regressed from them.
Simpler looking.

But no - it looks like the stormies and SDs are ancestral to the clone mob - note the more rounded shape of the carrier and the more brutal yet ornate styling of the clone soldier armour.

One from the other, but not the right way round.

Why, I'll tell you why.

Cause they suck.


I'll rephrase that. They suck mildly. George Lucas and his definitve vision boohisses all hell crazy.
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 07:46 AM

Good to see you again, Mnesymone. Another great post... many, many good points. Probably the one that rang the loudest for me was your complaint about George Lucas using the Jedi as cannon fodder.

It was disgusting. And it looked incredibly stupid as well. If you're going to send a thousand people to the battlefront to fight droids, why not send a large army of guys with guns? I mean, lightsabres are great and all but not really useful for that kind of combat where two armies are standing apart and one army is shooting at the other. Unless you've got something to shoot back with, you're kind of screwed.

And as anyone can use a gun, why waste Jedi when you could send the army of normal soldiers? Which brings us to the big question you raised at the start of your post, why the hell didn't the Republic have an army?

... especially when every other Tom, Dick and Dooku has one.
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 08:13 AM

I absolutely agree. Even if there had been peace for a long time, the idea that the Republic would have no military at all is just insane - especially since the Jedi clearly explain to Palpatine that 'we can't fight a war for you'. Not to mention the fact that, as both of you pointed out, special-interest groups like the Trade Federation seem to be allowed their own private army - which anyone with half a brain can see is a recipe for disaster.

I should point out that according to KOTOR, the Republic did indeed have its own army a few thousand years earlier (the Jedi did fight in the war, but not by themselves). Where it went by the time of the Prequels, I have no idea, but then again we're talking about a period when people elect 14-year-olds as their 'queen' and Jar Jar Binks is allowed to be a deputy Senator...

This post has been edited by Helena: 12 November 2004 - 08:22 AM

QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 09:02 AM

QUOTE
Reason #21
Representative Binks
Apparently the reason that this Galactic Republic has stood for 1,000 years is because of the great rules they have in place. One such rule is that if you don't feel like going to the Senate you can just have your completely unqualified fool of a friend just fill in for you and decide the fate of the entire Galaxy.


One of my favourites from Chefelf's lists. smile.gif
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#5 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 09:30 AM

QUOTE
But why was the army there? It was there to back up the Jedi army. The Jedi Army. The Army of Jedi. This is probably the single most disgusting thing imaginable to do the Star Wars story. The Jedi are commited en masse like cannon fodder. Jedi do not do this. They may well work in the partnership of two Jedi side-by-side, but they do not make armies. Ever. Let George Lucas cower like a weeny mongrel dog if ever I catch him for pouring Jedi into an arena. Even if the Jedi were commited to the battle as an army - why did any single one of them die? One Jedi could have held off all the droid infantry Count Dooku threw into the arena. Without ever being hurt once. If a single potential Jedi was of such importance that the Emperor and Darth Vader discussed him as the main course while dismissing the entire Rebel Fleet as no more than the palate cleanser then you get the idea that Jedi are kind of important. The giant Jedi army should have swept the droids before them and caught up with Count Dooku before he had time to nod to his cronies that the droids were going to take care of things.


You wanna know why that happened? I'll tell you why, because the sole purpose of having jedi fighting in an arena is only for making dumbasses in the audience to go 'wow' and 'ohh' and 'ahh!' It was all special effects masturbation and just there for being there, it had NO good reason for the movie at all. Neither for the plot, nor for anything other than having a big battle.

That's all what the movie was about... special effects and wasting time.
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 04:41 PM

You give George Lucas too much credit. The guy writes stories around the sales of action figures and what he thinks people want to see in Star Wars, its hardly about the logic of plot continuity or a well structured pseudopolitical sub plot that resonates with the audience. He wrote this shit probably off the top of his head, thinking mainly about what appears to look good enough in a star wars movie, how many new toys he can sell, and exaggeration of all elements in order to fit the rediculous story he orignally presented. You're worried about details like military logic in some kind of political context within the structure of the star wars world? I want to know what fart jokes are doing in star wars, and lines from "Wayne's World." It seems to be irrelevant considering what we've all seen. A good argument, and well thought out, it convincts lucas of more stupidity, but given the more obvious insanity of why "Poodoo" means fodder in ROTJ, and for convenience it means "shit" in Episode I. Given this fact, why even go so far as to even think Lucas has given one thought to the vast intergalactic politics of Star Wars? Well, why the hell not? The evidence in mounting, from every angle, Star Wars is a heap of bullshit that no matter where you stand, it still stinks and what remains is our horror of betrayal, and George Lucas rather substantial bank account.


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#7 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 02:45 AM

Actually, I respect that point.

If you see a mound of moulding compost from a distance, you see a mound of moulding compost. If you go in up close and analyse the fine points and individual parts of the compost mound, you see the compost in finer detail and are a bit grubbier for it - but it yields no more than it did when you were just looking at it from a distance. It is still a mound of compost.

I suppose I analyse the prequel trilogies (mound of moulding compost) to see if I find anything good in it.

So I'll keep on looking in there for something good - but don't hold your breath.

Actually you probably should hold your breath - you don't want to smell the compost.

Cheers, Hannibal.

I'll let you know if I find anything.
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#8 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 03:06 AM

But back to the armies - here's some food for thought.

In the original trilogy George Lucas was able to put armies on the screen. They were armies of people - they looked good, he was able bring out the AT-ATs and snowspeeders effectively using the technology of the day and was able to do it all filming on an actual set that turned out to be Norwegian snowfields. It was cool.

Then he threw out the set, threw out the people, threw out cool looking but also functional looking war machines for cannons that looked like toy firetrucks and mobile missile-launchers that looked like wheelchairs adapted for war, used 'sophisticated modern technology' that despite all the money and gizmos and people with actual university degrees making it produced an overall crap effect.

Add that to all the stuff in the post and you've got enough evidence to put the man behind bars on charges of being crap.

But just in case the jury isn't swayed, please, gentle reader, bring more evidence.

Thank you.
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Posted 13 November 2004 - 03:21 AM

The real issue is that no matter if you use an electron microscope, a fine tooth comb, a stack of historical research, a pile of valid and credible news reports, a pile of videos, people will still bow down and worship George Lucas, no matter how much evidence you mound up. So ...we have to keep trying. Any angle you got.


You think he swallowed a piece of poodoo?

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 08:11 AM

Also, Mnesymone, you're almost certainly right that Gunray and co. would have backed down immediately if the Republic had backed up their diplomatic efforts with a bit of firepower. They were scared enough of a couple of lightly-armed Jedi, for heaven's sake, so what would have been their reaction to a fleet of Republic warships? The thing about Palpatine's 'clever' plan is that there are so many points where it would clearly have failed if anyone in the Republic had a modicum of common sense...
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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