[Vwing]

Barend, that scares me too, more than you know. But the people will not let that happen. Because they will understand, we will MAKE them understand, there is a difference between electing a leader and going against all the principles we stand for. We will not sit back and watch as the Christian Right takes over the country. We will fight. And we will win. And we will make progress.

And I have a question JYAMG. Australia voted to ban gay marriage. Why, all of a sudden, is the US the only immoral nation, or do you feel that Australia is as immoral as America? This always happens. One group is discriminated against, it takes a while, and then they are accepted and assimilated. Blacks, women, and now gays. And it will happen.

[Little princess]

Jordan, are you culturally connected in some way, ie, the river Jordan?

I don't pretend to know any answers, no'one does.
I only know that when Arafat was offered most of the West Bank and Gaza, he knocked it back, he wanted it all.

Also he liked his job.
He ended up obscenely rich as well.

Until both sides want peace and not just victory this mess will go on.

[barend]

vwing: people won't stand up... they never do, not in the wesrern world...

and what do mean "Australia voted to ban gay marriage"
i didn't, nor do i remember anything about it...

Sydney is the gay capitol (yeah, thats right, in your face SanFran.)... how could that happen?

[Vwing]

http://www.gay.com/n...ml?2004/08/13/5

[J m HofMarN]

VWing- Israel as a model of democracy and freedom? PISH POSH! They require all citizens to serve in their illegal genocide against the Palestinians. 300 brave Israelis are in jail for refusing to participate in the aforementioned genocide. They routinely torture Palestinians and even their own citizens. They use a highly mechanized military against people who have no military whatsoever and are usually only armed with rocks. They have weapons of mass destruction and kidnapped an Israeli scientist and tortured him, imprisoning him for nearly two decades because he tried to warn the world. Israel is no model for ANY country. And what's more they're a bloody theocracy. They treat all Arabs and Christians like dirt.

"It made the Jews look like baby killers."

No no, it made the Israeli occupation forces look like baby killers, which they are. They killed a twelve year old and just this afternoon. Equating hating Israel with hating Jews is a really lame tactic. There are plenty of Jews who never hurt anyone and who are even against their countries policies. It's more accurate to say that people who are against the Palestinians are simply biased because they look different and they dont have as much money or media coverage.

So much for the "ancient history of the palestinian people."

I don't ever remember mentioning ancient history. The present is what matters. Millions of Palestinians were chased from their homes and live in refugee camps and even having lost their homes Israel still bombs their tents and shanties. At present it is the Palestinians who are oppressed, not the Israelis. The Israelis are only targeted by terrorists because their government does horrible things with the willful consent of the people, which means that it is logical to extend the guilt for the genocide to the Israeli people. I'm not saying I agree with this logic but I can understand it.

He ended up obscenely rich as well.

It's true that Arafat had control of millions, possibly billions of dollars, but it was never said that he used it selfishly. In fact, much like Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Arafat lived a very humble life and he used the money he had to buy favor with other arab countries, to pay for the loyalty of his friends (a necessity in the Arab world) and to ease the suffering of his people.

"And Arafat stunted that progress, the Israelis offered him everything he could possibly want"

Sometimes it was Arafat, sometimes it was Israel. You can't just blame President Arafat. Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade would often sabotage peace talks, and the Israeli military did their part too. Do you know what would have happened if Arafat asked for peace during an Israeli invasion? It would have been viewed as a surrender and he would have been gunned down or blown up in a matter of days. Yitzak Rabin I think suffered the same fate when he tried to make peace. It's a difficult thing to balance between appeasing your enemies and your friends and the enemies of your enemies. I think Arafat would have gladly sacrificed himself to guarantee freedom for Palestine but frankly the hardliners wouldn't go for it. Once they killed Arafat for his apparent surrender they'd take over and we'd have another decade of slaughter.

[SimeSublime]

And I have a question JYAMG. Australia voted to ban gay marriage. Why, all of a sudden, is the US the only immoral nation, or do you feel that Australia is as immoral as America? This always happens. One group is discriminated against, it takes a while, and then they are accepted and assimilated. Blacks, women, and now gays. And it will happen.

I think this is the first I've heard on that matter. As it said, that was a senate vote, so the people were left out. Generally, we vote for who sits in the senate, but when both Liberal and Labour voted against gay marriage, it doesn't really matter who you elect. :angry:

[Jordan]

I don't ever remember mentioning ancient history. The present is what matters

"To deny history is to deny ourselves". who said that?

Knowing the history will help shed light on the current situation. It helps clarify matters like "it's palestinians home not Israeli's" and "why do the Jews want the place"

I can't believe you just tossed all that out the window. Sad.

At present it is the Palestinians who are oppressed, not the Israelis.

Israelis are being oppressed. They are being screwed out of their right to live in peace. And just because the Palestinians are the underdogs it does not automatically make them the good guys.

Arafat and his fellow factions bomb the shit out of people to get their messages across. These people have no respect for life. They don't care about living in peace, they just want to live 'jew free'. And they would if the US did not back Israel.

Equating hating Israel with hating Jews is a really lame tactic.

Lets not play this game. I'm not about to type "jewish army" every time I want to make a reference to them. Plus, the Jews in Israel probably all feel that they are being fucked so it is accurate to say " jews". They may not like the idea of being blown up. And Israeli armed forces only stepped up when the bombings occured. They did not start attacking for no reason. Like I said, they could have crushed palestine back in the 70's and they didn't. Instead of taking that as an act of mercy, Paletinians stuck it to them with terroisim and, some how, the baby killer label.

[Just your average movie goer]

I agree that the methods some Palestinian terrorists use are wrong but there's a few things you need to note about this -

- These are the actions of individuals. You cannot judge other Palestinians on the basis of these actions. You can't even judge other Palestian terrorists or freedom fighters based on this.

- The Palestinian bombings increased after Israeli attacks increased, not the other way around. I hate to go all school-boyish on you, but they started it.

- Also, if you consider the nature of many of the Palestinian attacks (suicide bombings, young children armed only with rocks and makeshift weapons), does it not strike you that these people are driven by sincere desperation? People don't blow themselves up for fun, you know. It doesn't mean that it's right... but you have to ask "What would drive a man/woman/child to do something like this?"



Regarding Palestine and Israel in general. It's funny that I need to explain this to you, Jordan because you're a Bible-loving Christian. And the Bible gives many accounts of the Israelites driving other people out the land that "God had set aside for them." Now if you're an aetheist, like myself, this doesn't work. The Israelites came in like a bunch of bullies and stole the Palestinians' land - then made up some devine justification for it afterwards.

Over time, they came to think of it as their own land but the Palestinians were there first. Later, the Israelites would be dispersed around the world again and there was no state of Israel.

Where did Israel come in? After the Second World War. After the holocaust, the nations of the world believed that the Jewish race needed a homeland. Now, Vwing raised a great point - that the Israelites managed to really make the most out of the little strip of desert that was given to them. That's true...

However, I would argue that the state of Israel should have been made somewhere in Africa... for exactly the same reason. There, I think an Israeli state would be a force for good in the world and the nations of Africa would benefit.

Putting Israel where it is today was a big mistake. And not just because it was displacing the Palestinians who lived there. Because that area is the birthplace of three of the world's major religions and has been a site of contention for many centuries. Then suddenly, the nations of the world hand the Holy Land over to the Jews. Good for the Jews... but the nations of the world didn't ask the Islamic populations first.

And this fuels the problem even further. Can you just try to put yourselves in the shoes of the Palestinians... just for a few moments...

The nations of the world unanimously decided, without asking you, to kick you off your land and give it to another group of people.

You feel enraged and powerless. You can't ask the United Nations for help because they condoned and aided the invasion of your country. So it's up to you alone to get rid of these invaders.

And let's make no mistake. The Israel army is invading Palestine. Ariel Sharon doesn't want Israel and Palestine to co-exist peacefully. He wants to grind Palestine into the dust and salt the earth. There is so much more going on here than you realise. Think of it as the war between Judaism and Islam over the Holy Land and that's what you've got (and it's also another example of all the misery that organised religion has caused). And as the spectator in the war, who do you think the fundamentalist Christian government of the US hates more?

Of course, it is a lot more complicated than that. But boiled down, what you have is this - the world condoned and the US continues to condone (and support) the Israeli invasion of Palestine and the Palestinians have no-one to turn to so they're using whatever means they can... and they are getting desperate.

Sure, Arafat blocked the path to peace sometimes in the past... but since Ariel Sharon came to power, Israel has just been attacking Palestine constantly. Yes, Palestine has retaliated and sometimes in unacceptable ways... but it was Ariel Sharon who started this latest round of bloodshed.

I do not mean to attack anyone here. I just want you to think about this. Vwing, your view I actually respect because it is clear that you have thought about it.

However, I didn't care for your snide remark -

And JYAMG, he's not saying silly things. People go against America. If you actually side with the Palestinians because you feel bad for them, and look past all that Israel has done and all the pain the Palestinians have caused for no goddamn reason except this 2000 year war, then I should tell you to stop saying silly things.

I made the comment to Jordan because he was implying that we side with the Palestinians because it is "cool to hate America". And that was a silly thing to say. I'm not taking the side of the Palestinians to win any popularity contests. Nor do I hate Bush because I want to be down with the in-crowd.

[J m HofMarN]

Movie Goer- You make a great argument that was really impressive. I really don't understand how people can think that the Palestinians enjoy this. Most Palestinians dont want Israel destroyed they just want to live in peace but when there are tanks driving through a man's streets and shooting at his children I don't think there are a lot of people who wouldnt fight back however they could.

Some of you assert that the Palestinians just want to take over Israel? You know the problem with that boys and girls? You cant enjoy ruling something if you're dead!!! So why oh why do they sacrifice their lives in this battle? Did the US wage a hopeless war against the freedom fighters in Vietnam? No they pulled out because they realized that they couldnt rule Vietnam if all their troops were dead. Look at the Viet Cong though. They kept fighting despite losing 2 MILLION PEOPLE! That is how hard men will fight to win their freedom. Noone would sacrifice so much life willingly just to invade another country.

And yes, it's about as cool to support the Palestinian cause as it was to wave a red hammer and sickle flag during the McCarthy era. People have been arrested for supporting the Palestinian liberation movement. Cat Stevens was accused in involvement with the Hamas charity wing (not the military wing mind you, they do social work and provide schools and hospitals as well) It is not cool to support the Palestinian struggle, it's just right.

[Just your average movie goer]

The example you provided of the Viet Cong is a very good one too, JM. I wish I had thought of that. Anyway, I'm glad you agree. That makes about two of us in this thread so far... hardly popular opinion either.

[Slade]

Don't forget the wall the Israelis have built to block the Palestinians... And how they frequently drive tanks through civilian areas. Speaking of the wall, how's that coming along? It gets almost now media coverage over here, which speaks volumes for the hypocracy of the country. "Well, we know this is wrong, but since we support the country that's doing it, we'll just look the other way and try not to think about it."

I don't have much in the way of new information or opinions here. "One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter," is taken. Good quotation.

So I'll just reiterate: I side with the Palestinians, not because it's "cool" to hate America (That is easily the most absurd thing I've heard in the past week next to watching Sean O'Reilly for five minutes on Fox News), but because after WWII the US and the newly founded UN decided to remove the Palestinians from Palestine (Their home of over a thousand years), and stick another group of people in their place without any thought to what the Palestinians should do.

Now, I don't know about you, but that would make me, and evidence would say many people, really angry about it. Where I live there is this ongoing law suit filed by the Oneida Indian Nation. They claim that in the 1700's, their land was illegally taken from them, and that they are the rightfull owners of about one hundred thousand acres surrounding their current land (which is a reservation of about 1000 people and a casino). Most of this land is filled with residents of the United States. (Again, I'm unsure of everyone's knowledge of the situation: Technically, the reservations are self-governed and not an official part of the US, so they are exempt from taxes. That means they can sell gasoline and cigarettes much cheaper than people in the US.) Every now and then the Oneidas (mainly one man, a wealthy lawyer of the nation) gives another push for more territory, and you know what? People get pissed. There are rallys and protests against people being forced off of land that they consider theirs (whether it legally belongs to the Oneidas or not). I don't see much in the way of motivation and protest against the countless things worth protesting in this country, but this issue really pushes people's buttons back home.

Now think of Palestine. These people have been there for over a thousand years, and then one day all of a sudden a country with an advanced military drops in and says that they all have to leave and let someone else live there. Then this country endorses everything the Israelis do, regardless of how inhumane it is? I'm not surprised that people are enraged enough to become suicide bombers, although I will never endorse attacks on civilians.

I like how the US Administration is saying that peace is looking more positive with Arafat dead. Give the people their damned homes back... Although now it's not that simple because of the Israelis that are living there. You can't force someone else out of his or her home to repay someone else.

But just for you guys who hate Arafat because he's killed people while fighting for his freedom:http://www.mensnewsd...ourno111204.htm

This looks like it's morphed to be placed in the debate forums too... Could we keep JM's Eulogy on the main forum and put the whole thing in the Debate Club?

[Just your average movie goer]

That sounds like a good move to me. And may I say that was a really good post. I was trying to say that in my own post but I think you put it much more succinctly.

[Slade]

I was initially going to edit my post, but changed my mind. Typos will stay in and new thoughts will go here.

I just realized where that link was coming from - my apologies. I meant to be sarcastic in my link posting, but put up a more credible link at least... Google news has failed me. *browses the Internet* Actually, it's rather difficult to find pieces that slam Arrafat that aren't, say, the Jerusalem Post out of Israel... Wait... Here we go.

http://www.cbsnews.c...ain655126.shtml
Here's one linking Saddam Hussein to Palestinian terrorists... "Anti-terror wall" What did they call the wall in Berlin? Was it the "anti-communist" or "anti-capitalist" wall? And did that justify the landmines and barbed wire?

[Vwing]

I would just like to say that the P.L.O was originally founded as a terrorist organization. Now I do not necessarily agree with Israel putting up a wall, though I understand it, because you guys seem to not realize that almost every day there is a terrorist (ie Palestinian) attack, and I certainly don't agree with much of what Sharon is doing, but you have to take the mindsets of the people too.

The Israelites - Don't care if Palestinians gets their own state as long as they are left in peace.

The Palestinians - Don't want their own state unless it's Jerusalem, and not only that, but it cannot be shared with the Jews. It seems to me many would gladly continue wandering around nomadically (which by the way, they did in their state of Palestine anyway), if all the Jews were suddenly dead. I don't think you guys realize how deep anti-semitism runs in these people. The Jews only want to be left alone. They may fight for revenge, which is wrong, or fight to defend themselves, which is not wrong, but they would NOT have done anything if the P.L.O had not been a terrorist organization, which it was, and probably still is in some sense today.

And what's all this with rocks being the only methods? Last I looked, almost every Palestinian man had an automatic rifle or machine gun. At ceremonies for Arafat alone, there had to be about 100 men with advanced guns. Bullets are a bit more harmful then rocks.

Also, I'm surprised at you, JYAMG. What would drive a man/woman/child to commit those atrocities? Think for a second. RELIGION. I don't care what anyone says about land, this fight is about RELIGION. It's about the Middle East vs. The Jews, that's what it's been about for 2000 years. That's why Jordan and other countries haven't taken their "beloved" Palestinians, who they back completely, into their homes, into their lands, which are hospitable and can also be made hospitable as the Jews made Israel. That's why the Palestinians will, like the Viet Cong, fight till the last man, because they believe that there will be a better afterlife for them if they do. They believe they'll get 72 virgins or whatever the number is in heaven if they risk their lives for the cause, if they kill the infidels, the Jews. This really is my main argument, I don't know why I haven't said it before, but it's the same reason why we couldn't go into Iraq. These people don't want us there, they would rather be under a ruthless dictator and know that the Jews (or in Iraq's case, America), the infidels, were destroyed than they would want to be a democracy, because they believe in an afterlife that they view as being much more IMPORTANT than this life. I'm very surprised no one here has realized that. That is why I wholeheartedly support Israel here. Even thought they too are very religious, the Jews in Israel want happiness in THIS life, they believe living a good, full life is very important. The Palestinians are only concerned with happiness in the next life. That's what's scary about them, and the others in the Middle East.

JYAMG, I apologize for the remark, though it wasn't directed at you. I was just backing up what Jordan was saying, that it IS a trend in the world today for people to not only deride America for every single thing they do, but to also deride America's past contributions, trying to see some other angle and making America's intent suspicious. I know you don't think like that, you're too smart to think like that, but it was not a silly thing to say, because Jordan is saying that many people do think like that. But again, I apologize.

And I am sorry for making this into a debate thread.

[Jordan]

-  The Palestinian bombings increased after Israeli attacks increased, not the other way around. I hate to go all school-boyish on you, but they started it

I dunno.... I would have to do some research first. I don't see why the Israeli's would start the attacks unless they felt threatend. I have no clue. But you don't sound like a school boy. 'Who started it' might be a good way to determine whose the main agressor here.

Bah, this topic does not belong here anyhow.